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Some not understood grammar

slumberfall

後輩
30 Aug 2005
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Hi, originally I was thinking about posting in Japanese, but seeing how nobody really does so, and considering I'd explain better in English, it's better to not be the black sheep of the herd.

Anyway, as an introduction (first post), I've studied Japanese for about 2 years, generally on a casual basis by myself. I went to Japan this summer, and apparently my conversational Japanese is understood (to my own amazement). I like to watch anime and listen to alot of Japanese songs (while trying to understand them in their entirety), and from them I learn many new words, and I believe all of the essential Japanese grammar. Songs really help you understand the language from a non-literal perspective, because songs translated literally seriously make no sense. In any case, there are times when I get confused, and this is such a time, so I beg for some kind assistance ^^

- 迷いさえ振り切っていくんだ
The literal translation doesn't seem to make much sense, and maybe if somebody discuss once more the use of: -sae VS nara VS -tara VS -to, and any other "if" forms I left out. What I've observed is that -to is used in a continuous way, for a condition with a result that is ALWAYS the case (if you leave the lights on, I won't be able to sleep), while -tara is used for events that may only happen once (hypothetical or to occur). I've seen a mix of uses, so I'm losing my confidence there as well.

- 心描き出す地図上の未知なるフロンティア
Again, as previously discussed on this board. Japanese doesn't have any "real" sentence structure. Word relationships are defined by particles. However, you find that in speech especially, particles are left out completely! This makes it very confusing on what is doing what on what. I've been having a disagreement with my friend on this. I think it translates: My heart draws out a new frontier on the map. But my friend says it's: I draw out my heart on an unknown frontier (on the map). We could both be wrong, but what do you do when there are no grammar particles!?

- 僕らはいずれ誰かを疑っちまうから
- 何れすべてなくなるならば
I guess this is more of a word question on the usage of "izure". I'm not sure what's going on here for the word apparently doesn't change the meaning by much. I'm sure I'm wrong.

- 僕らなぜか確かめ合う 世界じゃそれを愛と呼ぶんだぜ
I'm just certainly confused about the what's doing what on what. What does the "sore wo" refer to? The "bokura nazeka tashimeau" clause? The meaning itself is kinda crazy which makes you think, he could be saying anything, so "making sense" (context) doesn't work with songs all the time ^^v it seems.

- 悲しみの夜なんてなかったかのように歌い出す
There's a poetic aspect to the second part that is preventing me from understanding it completely, but my initial guess would be "sing out as if it were nothing". Still a wild guess nonetheless.


Thanks alot in advance guys and girls ^_^.
P.S. These are from songs by the way
 
迷いさえ振り切っていくんだ
The literal translation doesn't seem to make much sense, and maybe if somebody discuss once more the use of: -sae VS nara VS -tara VS -to, and any other "if" forms I left out. What I've observed is that -to is used in a continuous way, for a condition with a result that is ALWAYS the case (if you leave the lights on, I won't be able to sleep), while -tara is used for events that may only happen once (hypothetical or to occur). I've seen a mix of uses, so I'm losing my confidence there as well.
Sae doesn't have anything to do with "nara," the "literal translation"
would be "Even if there is hesitation/confusion, it is shaken off," is that
your understanding as well ?

一般会話では、「て、に、お、は、」が状況によって、飛ばされたりしますね。
「正しい日本語」をまず、学んでから会話的な日本語も勉強できれば、一番いいですね。
:cool:

心描き出す地図上の未知なるフロンティア
I think it translates: My heart draws out a new frontier on the map. But my friend says it's: I draw out my heart on an unknown frontier (on the map). We could both be wrong, but what do you do when there are no grammar particles!?
The unknown frontier on the map that my heart draws out/expresses.... or
The unknown frontier on the map that I express with my heart (?)
The new frontier on the map that I draw is my heart....

One free text search uncovered the below line, if that is is the full
noun phrase (フロンティア扉 modified by 地図上の未知なる) it might be 'if the door of the unknown frontier on the map that my heart expresses opens...."

心描き出す地図上の未知なるフロンティア扉開いたら道は

Of course it's impossible to tell for sure without the particles and in this fragmentary state. Needless to say I suppose at this point, I can't recommend anyone learn the foundation of a language through lyrics or poetry or any kind of guesswork for that matter. :eek:
 
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Hey thanks Elizabeth ^^.

Elizabeth said:
One free text search uncovered the below line, if that is is the full
noun phrase (フロンティア扉 modified by 地図上の未知なる) it might be 'if the door of the unknown frontier on the map that my heart expresses opens...."

心描き出す地図上の未知なるフロンティア扉開いたら道は

Of course it's impossible to tell for sure without the particles and in this fragmentary state. Needless to say I suppose at this point, I can't recommend anyone learn the foundation of a language through lyrics or poetry or any kind of guesswork for that matter.

Yeah, wow, you found it. Yes, it's from the song, Minamikaze by Mikuni Shimokawa, and that is the continuing sentence. I guess songs have ambiguous meanings like that. I usually try to go for the one that makes the most sense, but sometimes it's just necessary to get an opinion from a fluent/native speaker who seems to have nearly always the right sense.
 
接続語省略されても、 前後の文、その場の状 況や雰意気で意味を理解(解釈)しなければならない英語よりも日本語の場合が多い ですね。 いわゆる「本当の文法」
があるとかないという全然問題じゃないと思います。😅
 
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