Some grammar questions, if you'd be so kind

bakaKanadajin · 7 Dec 2007

1) 申しわけありませんが、今、レターサイズの紙をきらしているんです。後ほど買ってまいりますから。

I'm a little confused on the usage of hodo here as it relates to the go/ato kanji. Are they together? Does it just mean 'in a little while'? What reading should I use?... I'm inclined to say kunyomi.

Also, the second sentence just isn't registering with me.. the まいります in this case means to consult or participate, and where's the cause/effect that stems from the kara?

2) ロッククライミングをなさるんですか。いいところを知っているんですが、地図をお書きしましょうか

What would the difference be here between what's written at the end, and, say, [書きましょうか]? Is it simply the addition of 'suru' and the infinitive to indicate politeness? Just like saying 'shachou ni oyobi desu' (You are called by the company president)?

nice gaijin · 7 Dec 2007

後ほど＝＝のちほど, a polite version of 後で, just means "later" (ex a more polite version of また後で would be また後ほど)

I believe the second part of that sentence is just a leading statement, meaning that "because we'll get more/restock later...[please come again]" The latter part is implied.

For the second one, it's a part of keigo. お+verb stem+します is a humble form of verbs that don't have a special form for 謙譲語. It's interesting that the first sentence uses 尊敬語 (なさる), and 謙譲語 in the last sentence (お書きします), but normal 丁寧語 in the middle (知っているんですか, instead of ご存知ですか)

epigene · 7 Dec 2007

bakaKanadajin said:
1) 申しわけありませんが、今、レターサイズの紙をきらしているんです。後ほど買ってまいりますから。

Also, the second sentence just isn't registering with me.. the まいります in this case means to consult or participate, and where's the cause/effect that stems from the kara?

まいる is humble form for 行く・来る used in standard form.
Standard form: 後ほど買ってきますから。
からis a pointer to the reason/cause.

2) ロッククライミングをなさるんですか。いいところを知っているんですが、地図をお書きしましょうか

What would the difference be here between what's written at the end, and, say, [書きましょうか]? Is it simply the addition of 'suru' and the infinitive to indicate politeness? Just like saying 'shachou ni oyobi desu' (You are called by the company president)?

お書きしましょうか used here had been intended to be honorific (toward to person spoken to). However, I think this is wrong honorific usage, since お書きになる must be used for situations where the person to be honored is to be asked to write:
このノートにお書きください。
The speaker here is mistakenly "honoring" himself/herself. The right way is the plain " 書きましょうか "
This kind of confused honorific/humble form usage happens very frequently even among native Japanese.

Another note: The correct form for the example you gave is "shachou ga oyobi desu."

HTH!

Elizabeth · 7 Dec 2007

nice gaijin said:
後ほど＝＝のちほど, a polite version of 後で, just means "later" (ex a more polite version of また後で would be また後ほど)

Doesn't のちほど usually also signify a much shorter wait time than あと ? For some reason I usually hear it as "later" implying in the next few hours or at least within the same day.

Charles Barkley · 7 Dec 2007

nice gaijin said:
後ほど＝＝のちほど, a polite version of 後で, just means "later" (ex a more polite version of また後で would be また後ほど)

I believe the second part of that sentence is just a leading statement, meaning that "because we'll get more/restock later...[please come again]" The latter part is implied.

For the second one, it's a part of keigo. お+verb stem+します is a humble form of verbs that don't have a special form for 謙譲語. It's interesting that the SECOND sentence uses 尊敬語 (なさる), and 謙譲語 in the last sentence (お書きします), but normal 丁寧語 in the middle (知っているんですか, instead of ご存知ですか)

I found that interesting too. Well, more surprising. Is this something that's okay to do?

undrentide · 7 Dec 2007

epigene said:
お書きしましょうか used here had been intended to be honorific (toward to person spoken to). However, I think this is wrong honorific usage, since お書きになる must be used for situations where the person to be honored is to be asked to write:
このノートにお書きください。
The speaker here is mistakenly "honoring" himself/herself. The right way is the plain " 書きましょうか "
This kind of confused honorific/humble form usage happens very frequently even among native Japanese.

About お～する, I have a different opinion.
While お～なる（なさる） is used as 尊敬語 (paying respect), お～する can be used as 謙譲語 (humbling oneself), I think.

社長がお話しになる。（尊敬）
私から社長にお話しする。（謙譲）

To me, お（ご）～する is a polite/humble form for ～する for someone else (similar to ～してあげる, which can sound very 押し付けがましい／恩着せがましい）.

Shall I draw a map for you?
地図をかこうか。 (casual)
地図をかきましょうか。 (formal)
地図をおかきしましょうか。 (very polite)

http://www3.kcn.ne.jp/~jarry/keig/atop.html

But it could be just me.

epigene · 7 Dec 2007

undrentide-san,

I do admit that I see a lot of similar cases both in practice and in the media.

However, this is what my husband taught his students when he was a schoolteacher and he insists that he was taught this at university. It must be admitted also that he is clearly "old school" when it comes to the Japanese language. Having been married to him for decades, I think I have unconsciously adopted his policy on language usage.

bakaKanadajin · 8 Dec 2007

Thank you all for your input!! Lots of skilled Japanese learners here. Unfortunately I'm at work so my responses are limited to copy/paste and romaji

When I looked up まいります for some reason I couldn't find the polite version of 'kuru/iku', instead it just had entries for 'consult' and 'participate'. Now it makes sense; if it simply said "katte kimasu" that would have clicked for me. He's basically saying 'Sorry we're out of that paper size, in a little while I'm going to buy more and come back (because we're out, that's why).

Actually I should have gotten that, I mean I heard "niban homu ni, densha ha mairimasu, go chui kudasai' for a year straight every day...

のちほど - that's a new one to me, is it quite common? thanks!

RE: Part 2..
So, as I understood the responses, the 'infinitive + suru' is in fact politeness, honouring the individual who is being offered the information, and 書きましょうか would also work.

epigene said:
Another note: The correct form for the example you gave is "shachou ga oyobi desu.

epigene san, yes you are correct, the subject is the boss, so the standard 'ga' should have been used, I was thinking of 'ni' meaning 'by', but for this to work I needed the passive conjugation.. 'shachou ni yobaremashita'.

Elizabeth · 8 Dec 2007

undrentide said:
About お～する, I have a different opinion.
While お～なる（なさる） is used as 尊敬語 (paying respect), お～する can be used as 謙譲語 (humbling oneself), I think.

社長がお話しになる。（尊敬）
私から社長にお話しする。（謙譲）

To me, お（ご）～する is a polite/humble form for ～する for someone else (similar to ～してあげる, which can sound very 押し付けがましい／恩着せがましい）.

Shall I draw a map for you?
地図をかこうか。 (casual)
地図をかきましょうか。 (formal)
地図をおかきしましょうか。 (very polite)

So although いたす is considered more "polite" than する, I wonder if the humble form of お～致す as a question with ましょう is excessively 謙譲語 to be natural in most contexts ??

地図をお書きいたしましょうか？

Elizabeth · 8 Dec 2007

bakaKanadajin said:
Thank you all for your input!! Lots of skilled Japanese learners here. Unfortunately I'm at work so my responses are limited to copy/paste and romaji
When I looked up まいります for some reason I couldn't find the polite version of 'kuru/iku', instead it just had entries for 'consult' and 'participate'. Now it makes sense; if it simply said "katte kimasu" that would have clicked for me. He's basically saying 'Sorry we're out of that paper size, in a little while I'm going to buy more and come back (because we're out, that's why).
Actually I should have gotten that, I mean I heard "niban homu ni, densha ha mairimasu, go chui kudasai' for a year straight every day...

I don't know where this is coming from but are you looking up まいる（参る）？？

bakaKanadajin · 8 Dec 2007

http://japanese.about.com/blkod517.htm?p=1

This wasn't the site I found the definition at but there are some definitions out there that don't explain the humble form of 'go', they kind of make it out to be something more along the lines of participation.

Elizabeth · 9 Dec 2007

bakaKanadajin said:
http://japanese.about.com/blkod517.htm?p=1
This wasn't the site I found the definition at but there are some definitions out there that don't explain the humble form of 'go', they kind of make it out to be something more along the lines of participation.

The kanji 参 definately carries those meanings (参加、参与) but I've never seen 参る
used in that sense. Certainly not as an auxiliary verb replacing くる。

bakaKanadajin · 9 Dec 2007

This has been one of my main stumbling blocks, many resources fail to provide the most accurate definitions that encompass the proper nuances and subtleties. That is to say, not just what the words could mean, but what they most commonly mean to the Japanese themselves in natural speech; percentage wise I'd have a greater chance of using the right verb in the right situation as there are so many to choose from!

But that's all part of the learning curve is it not

Some grammar questions, if you'd be so kind

bakaKanadajin

先輩

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

Elizabeth

先輩

Charles Barkley

TNT Basketball Analyst

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

bakaKanadajin

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

bakaKanadajin

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

bakaKanadajin

先輩

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