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Should JAPAN be selective about asylum and immigration?

kellymich said:
No doubt that the Japanese should be less discriminatory to foreigners.
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Yes, and what does this have to do with Asylum? Oh yes, Asylum seekers are simply criminals... I'll tell that to the fellow I know whose children are dead in Iraq because a bomb fell upon his house... I know he WOULDN'T be welcome in Japan.

kellymich said:
But I beg to differ with you … some people are asking them to become merely another multi cultural new york.
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I beg YOU to procure the source of any sort of data, study, or essay, even a rant that suggests this somewhere, anywhere... Just who is wanting them to be multi-cultural "new york"...? I'll remind you, when you walk off the plane in New York, Japanese or not, English speaking or not, and you begin living in New York--- you're considered a "New Yorker"... quite the contrast to how foreigners are treated in Japan.

kellymich said:
My feeling is that this would so change the character of japan that it would not be a good thing. But The japanese can decide for themsleves ...
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The problem is, that you don't seem to be understanding what complaints there are that people are actually levying.... You think that people want Japan to be one big melting pot, and by far, I've seen the opposite rant, that Japan is becoming "Too Westernized", and this is from foreigners...

kellymich said:
I find westerners who criticize them for not doing so extremely arrogent and I feel they need to be taken down a notch or two for meddling in things which they have no business.
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How is the equitable treatment of legal foreigners in Japan NOT my business...? Nobody is asking Japan to let MORE foreigners in, just to treat the ones there in a fashion that respects their attempts at become a part of Japanese society... and further and to the main point of this thread, to accept asylum seekers, even if to Japan, they are simply unwanted as an undesirable race.

kellymich said:
In short, if the japanese wish to become like multicultural new york that is their business -- but it is not ours.
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In short, nobody has ever said this, in the history of anything I've read on the problems of discrimination and immigration in Japan... it's just an utter falsehood, much like the majority of your assumptions.
 

You seem mesmerized by the word asylum.

I think that 1., third world countries need to begin get their houses in order. 2., That countries such as japan should play a positive role in this.
But as far as taking in millions of refugees or large scale immigration, that is something which the Japanese people should decide for themselves. And there are plenty of good reasons for them not to do it. Whether you call it immigration or asylum is mere semantics.
 
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kellymich said:
Whether you call it immigration or asylum is mere semantics.
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No, it's not. There aren't millions of asylum seekers... there aren't millions of immigrants either... the society isn't set at 99% Japanese, 1% foreign (the bulk of which are Asian), for no particular reason.

They're firm on Immigration (which is their business), and rank poorly on Asylum issues, you have to get these two very distinct words seperate... I don't know why you can't see this.

Immigrant = Someone who may be skilled or unskilled who wished to migrate to a perspective country to better their financial situation, or simply because they wish to enjoy the benefits (whatever they see them to be) of a particular country, etc...

Asylum Seeker = Someone who's life and the lives possibly of his or her family are in grievous danger should he or she remain in his or her own country who seek refuge from possible death or torture should they remain in their own country.

It's very simple. And there are millions of neither.
 

The number of people in the world who will die as a result of malnutrition and starvation alone this year is estimated at around 35,000,000... around 5 times the number of jews that were killed in nazi germany ... they are, as you say, in grievous danger.

The problems in the world cannot be solved by immigration to japan ... these countries must get a hold of their justice, population and poverty problems. That is the solution.

Between 1990 and 1993 the number of asylum seekers in the European Community jumped from 320,000 to 560,000. No doubt, if japan allowed it, millions of people would enter japan under asylum and immigration. Many people from around the world have very good reasons for wanting to do so.

The situation in the world is beyond the imagination of a westerner and his self destructive delusions of "a chicken in every pot" ... and it probably will not work out very well. There are almost certain to be huge catastrophes, man made and otherwise. The japanese are very wise to ensure their prosperity and cultural health in what is certain to be a turbulent time. If you are so keen on helping the "disadvantaged" put your own life on the line and go do charity work in Harare or Calcutta ... but you have no right to criticize the japanese. They are very wise … and I have little doubt they will continue to flourish 100, 200, and even 300 years down the road.

I didn't create the world as it is ... but I do know a thing or two about what civilizations need not only to merely survive (which is not a goal worthy of our highest aspirations) , but to be vital, healthy and dynamic. Many westerners cannot look at the world situation objectively because it is simply too disturbing and it shatters their humanitarian illusions. But in my opinion it is our humanitarian illusions which will destroy us more than anything else.

No one likes to think of unpleasnt things and ruin their day, and the idealists don't like to have their dreams of universal brotherhood, peace and prosperity shattered ... and that is why people have difficulty facing what is sometimes truly necesary and healthy for a society. Things which would guarantee it, a vital, healthy and prosperous future. It appears to me that the japanese have, to their credit, figured it out. The japanese don't want the rest of the world to fail, but they are not intent on commiting cultural suicide for something which they will not be able to change the outcome. It is highly pragmatic, correct, and pregnant with a future. It ensures that this venerable culture will survive.
 
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pipokun said:
That unlivable America is much more confortable than present Japan.
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In some places America is more livable than japan- agreed. japan is simply too crowded.

However, many of america's largest cities, especially on the coasts, have become very difficult and unpleasant to live in mostly because of the culture, the violence and skyrocketing property prices.

We are now a country of 300 million people and by the year 2090 to 2100 we will be a country of 1 billion people if current immigration trends continues to America unabated. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think it will work out very well.

Japan has one thing that holds it together- the unity and ethos of its people. Under such crowded conditions I think Americans might shoot each other. We are not a bad people but we have so much ferment and so much contradiction and change that it is almost impossible to contain bad elements or understand the country from decade to decade.

Our educational system too has almost been destroyed. Where I live in California 1 in 3 high schools students now drops out of the once excellent public school system. The kids are dropping out, I presume, because their lives have been made intolerable by the school system. It is a very sad thing that the richest most powerful country in the world has allowed its schools to degenerate so badly. The people who have presided over the disintegration of America's schools have been the "western liberal humanists" and their programmes. They have been firmly in charge for 50 years. These would be the same people who would have a mindset that Japan needs to accept millions of immigrants and assylum seekers from around the world-- is it any wonder I am sceptical ?
 
lol ....

Good lord,bumped an old thread to vent.

Apparently,U only come here to whine about America is gradually becoming a third-worlder populated country ( me,agree tho ).If so discontent with present living situations in America,WHY NOT emigrate elsewhere

3 out of 10 national top high schools are in California.
 
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It's kind of sad, but it's either that or Japan becoming a third-world country because it simply will not be able to maintain its political and economical power it has now, let alone emerge, all because of the declining population and social problems emerging nowadays, not by any means compared to America's problems, but still, it has its own share of social problems.

Many people could disagree with me, but an example is the overwork culture. These people work a whole lot of time and the new iniciative to once again increase the school week to 6 days a go certainly does not help. Japanese are humans, and humans have a boiling point and it's no wonder the pressure is the cause of many suicides among other social ills.

Mauricio
 
The 6-day school week is only for half the month, BTW, not every week. It was phased out for a couple of years, because the government thought kids needed more home time to develop their social skills instead of becoming juvenile delinquents. Parents rightfully complained because the gov didn't do anything to change college entrance exams at the same time, and parents were concerned that their kids weren't getting enough education to get into college.

Whether a 6-day-a-week, half a month school schedule is actually needed remains moot, as many/most private schools do that anyway and most never cancelled it when the public schools did.

The whole issue is moot anyway when you consider that the declining birthrate will soon produce so few students for universities and HS that anyone will be able to get in, thus eliminating a need for any entrance exam at all.
 

at first, ppl did more hard working before.
and students had more pressure before.
 
It's too early to discuss immigration policy of Japan because Japan is already enough populous with some 130 million inhabitants.

It is true that Japan is fastest ageing country and labor shortage may become more serious. BUT Japan is developing more intelligent robots, which may replace manual labor. I personally believe that some 50 million people are enough for this tiny islands, and Japanese should use more robots than human being to maintain our economic prosperity.
 

Japan really is overpopulated as it is… a decline of 20, 30 even 40 million would not be disastrous if you focused on bringing out quality from your people. With automation and globalization Japan has to be smarter … she doesn't need a population of 200 million wildly diverse peoples crammed into a tiny land mass. I doubt she needs to turn into a new york city so that the "dirty work" gets done.

If you had fewer people you could have larger homes and more space, which I would imagine, would induce more families to have 1 or 2 children to keep the population stable and young… not to mention an overall more healthy society.

The goals of japan should not be to dominate the world economy but to provide an excellent standard of living and quality of life to its people.

It is possible in the modern world to grow an economy without growing a population… but many people are very frightened of this idea. In America we have become addicted in the last 30 years to high turnover cheap labor … but the real costs and social implications we have not yet tallied.

For the land mass that is japan—it is quite remarkable what the japanese have accomplished. The thinkers in the western world have taken to a course of action and they feel this is right for everyone because we are doing it. American's cant stand to really believe in something and not try to push it on the rest of the world—they just can't.

I however think the japanese people should be able to choose whether they want a multi-cultural multi ethnic society... if so then fine ... but it is not our place to tell the japanese what they need to do. My feeling is that the majority of the japanese people do not want it which I think is a perfectly legitimate choice.
 


I didn't say I was discontent … let us just say I am concerned. If I become discontent perhaps I will emigrate somewhere -- I have friends and family connections all over the world.

I don't want to be seen as whining … America is still, in places, a very marvelous country. California no doubt has some excellent schools … but still, the sad statistic regarding 1 in 3 students now dropping out is a strong indictment against the educational establishment in california. The only questions one really needs to ask is who have been running the schools and what philosophies have governed them during their pathetic decline. The questions, when asked by a thoughtful individual diagnose the disease.
 
Japan is not that crowded compared with Benelux parts of Germany. US might have more space but the flip side is that there are much more moralising violent religious fanatics with a square mind set. The food sucks too there. Who cares about school when they cant even stop people from killing each other.

Yes Japan should be selective with who they want to have in their society. Japan is a peaceful country not like USA or Brazil.
 
Astroboy said:
It's too early to discuss immigration policy of Japan because Japan is already enough populous with some 130 million inhabitants.
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Kellymich wrote:
Japan really is overpopulated as it isﾂ… a decline of 20, 30 even 40 million would not be disastrous if you focused on bringing out quality from your people.
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The above 2 quotes fail to take into account a very important factor here. It is not just raw numbers of people that are on the decline. The aged are on the increase, so the numbers of people of working age are falling. This has 2 effects right off: fewer people to do the work, fewer people to support the aged. Automation will not be a panacea for work, especially in farmland, and automation will certainly not help the financial support needed for taking care of elderly (most of which are feeble and unable to care for themselves). Younger people in Japan today are already choosing not to contribute to the pension system.

It is true that Japan is fastest ageing country and labor shortage may become more serious.
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Not "may", but will. This has already been reported by many sources, so to brush it aside as a "maybe" is just putting on blinders to reality.

Japanese should use more robots than human being to maintain our economic prosperity.
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Automation helps and is on the rise, but we don't live in the world of Star Trek or The Jetsons. Farming is a serious concern as much (or more so) as industry, and automation is not destined to improve the situation there with the population demographics going the way they are.

if you focused on bringing out quality from your people...
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Well, yes, but history has shown this not to be the case, especially in recent years. "Japan, Inc." is not alive and well anymore.

I doubt she [Japan] needs to turn into a new york city so that the ﾂ"dirty workﾂ" gets done.
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Look around! Japan is already a NY in a sense with the immigrants brought in (often illegally) to do precisely that dirty work!

Many of the older population feel that way, especially those in the inbred halls of government. But it is rapidly becoming more than a mere matter of choice.

Perhaps Japan should open its eyes and look around to see that the world itself is becoming multicultural anyway. This is not going to stop. Nobody is saying that the culture of Japan should die (or die out). It will evolve regardless of immigration laws and such. One problem is that so many people don't realize this. Another is that they don't see there aren't any other viable solutions.

Some very interesting support to all of this can be found here.
Cloud, or silver linings?
http://japanfocus.org/products/details/2411
The Times & The Sunday Times
ejcjs - The Dilemma Posed by Japan's Population Decline
 
I think that the problem of the population decline has nothing to do with immigration
it is kind of propaganda..

today, population is not equal to power of country.
I think As for the Japanese population, the present half is proper.

There is not the problem thereby even if industrial power and etc. decline

The United States should increase the number of Chinese immigrant more.
 
Yes the food sucks in America....go to Japan. Jeez...that's so silly. The food here is as diverse as the people. I don't want more people in the USA and I wouldn't wish it on Japan either. In the USA we are stuck in vicious circle of political correctness and we are diluting what our country was founded on. It's not a melting pot and never will be one. That's a myth and it wouldn't happen in Japan.
 
Japan should defenitly start accepting new immigrants (from non-asian countries as well), not even because of the rapidly aging and shrinking population but as an effort to move into the 21st century. Japans unwillingness to accept foreigners is not only going to hurt it's economy in the future but is also going to make it ever more alienated from the rest of the modern world that has accepted and, in many more ways than not, made immigration work. Not only that, but it will bring new ideas, creativity and perspectives to the country rather than letting it become a static society that slowly stagnates under it's own unwillingness to change.

It's been stated again and again and again that "Japan is not like the US, they're not a melting pot ect". Japan is one of least culturally diverse first world nation so there's almost no chance of that happening, but it seems like Japan is doing everything in it's power to head the issue off at the pass when, so far, the possibility isn't even there. They are jumping to conclussion about what might happen if they allowed more immigrants, fearing turning into another US or Canada.

I know there is a resistance of change and conflict but, honestly, is Japan such a delicate flower that they would crumble and die at the first major conflict? Methinks not. The only problem really lies with the Japanese people themselves. I don't know what they've seen of the US or Canada that makes them so scared of turning into a multi-cultural society (maybe someone living in Japan could tell me) but I'm sure that wont be the case.
 
caster51 said:
I think that the problem of the population decline has nothing to do with immigration
it is kind of propaganda..
today, populationﾂ is not equal to power of country.
I think As for the Japanese population, the present half is proper.
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Well said.

Today number of head or geographical space is not important to guage country. It is not the time of colonialisim, but the time of globalization & free trade.

Instead of maintaining population, Japan should develop more humanoid robots and seek the path to a paradise - less work but earn more from investment returns from overseas.

Japanese Paradise may be approaching.
 
caster51 said:
I think that the problem of the population decline has nothing to do with immigration
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Well, economists and politicians around the world disagree with you. Immigration is not the whole issue, but it is definitely the one most people focus on.

What else do you have if the population actually declines long enough, caster? Nobody here left alive.

Before that extreme happens, people have to face the fact of what shortages lie ahead:

fewer people to put into the pension system to support the growing number of elderly,
fewer people attending school (hence, fewer teachers needed, fewer schools to stay afloat, and fewer graduates to enter the work force),
fewer farmers (as if there wasn't already a shortage), leading to a stronger dependence on foreign trade,
etc.

Yup, propaganda.

Astroboy asserted:
It is not the time of colonialisim, but the time of globalization & free trade.
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Thankfully, this is not colonialist times, or countries nearby would be in fear of the so-called peaceful Japan mentioned earlier (here or on another similar thread). However, if there is no one at the wheels of corporate industry because the number of people is so low, how can you even have any trade running?

Just what is globalization to you, Astroboy?

Goldiegirl said:
In the USA we are stuck in vicious circle of political correctness and we are diluting what our country was founded on. It's not a melting pot and never will be one. That's a myth and it wouldn't happen in Japan.
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Gee, if you don't like it there, to use your own words, why don't you leave?

As for melting pot, I'm curious as to why you think the USA is not one. What support do you have for that?

Oh, and it is happening in Japan. Don't you read the statistics about increasing marriages to foreigners? Wake up, Goldie.

And, a random passing question related to the above quote...
Just what in your mind was the USA founded on?
 
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IMO, and in the opinion of many, the problem with the above notion stems from politicians and the police. It's widely known that the police publish skewed reports about foreign crime (presumably to get more money for their own coffers), and this horrific advertising every year (or is it twice a year?) http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20031231b3.html .

And, then there are things like the National Police Agency actually establishing the "Policymaking Committee Against Internationalization" http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20070220zg.html .

Is it any wonder that the regular citizens are scared? Hooliganism during the World Cup is one thing (and proven to be inaccurate), but to scare the whole country against foreigners in general is ludicrous, yet it is happening. Mind control? Yes, of a sort, thanks to your friendly neighborhood government and its henchmen, the police.

It's nice to see that some locals are not buffaloed by such things http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20031231b3.html and we can only hope that more Japanese citizens rise up openly against such stupidity.
 
Gee, if you don't like it there, to use your own words, why don't you leave?

As for melting pot, I'm curious as to why you think the USA is not one. What support do you have for that?
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US is not a melting pot. You have big getthoes where African Americans live in 3rd world conditions with a soaring crime rate. US prisons is over populated by African Americans and Latinos. It is not a melting pot at all. Each ethnicity live in their getthoes.

It would be better to compare Japan to an European country because both Japan and Europe is populated by more or less by the indegenous people where as US killed most of the indegenous people and was founded by immigrants. Japan, Europe have more than 1000 years of history. Anyhow. In Europe people are complaining about too many immigrants already. I have a feeling that Americans are more open to immigrants than both Europe and Japan maybe...? this is due to the fact that the country is founded by immigrants.

If this trend continues there will be no people left in Japan but this means that this trend has to continue for a couple of centuries so Japan will manage with or without immigrants. It should be up to Japan to decide when and how many they should take and US should most certainly not be a model to follow.

Globalization to me is when a country wages war on countries to be able to rape the country for natural resources.
 
I just want to add. The situation is quite similar in Italy. Italy and Japan are the two countries in this world with most old people in the population. Both countries have a low birth rate and both countries do not want to open up their borders too much. There are many European countries who dont want to have hoards of immigrants into their country and that in itself is not a racist attitude.

Its a played out joke to say that people who are sceptical to immigrants are racist. Also to say they are racist to point out the fact that foreigners are over represented in Japanese prisons. This is a fact.
 

It is an interesting post. Let me explain to you.

In 2006, Japan's current account surplus continued to expand and mark record high of 4-consecutive years. As you know, Current account mean The net flow of current transactions, including trade of goods, services, and interest payments, between countries.

Needless to say, trade surplus is famous as one of Japanese economic characteristics. Yes, Japan used to rely on trade, but today it has been less important.

But Key is interest payment account, which continue to surpass growth rate of others because Japanese companies shifted their factories to overseas + Japanese capital investments to other countries. It was because of higher yen & famous Japan-bashing over trade issues & labour shortage.

In short, Japan is reshaping or reshaped its economy towards .... maintaining R&D and key industries in Japan, transferring manual-labor works to overseas, and earning returns from overseas subsidiaries + investments + intellectual proprietaries or patents.

Please note that Japanese patent right revenus from all countries in the world already exceeded payments from some 20 years ago, and continues to grow.

Trade of goods is less important, but returns from capital investment & capital expenditure in overseas are more important to Japan.

Soon or later, the times may come .... which is "No Work But Living on Interests"....
Beautiful retirement life ????? That's why I said .... Japan is entering into a paradise, which human being never experienced before.

Then, America begins to change the rule again ????
 
When Japan can live on more financial returns, it is not necessary to discuss about immigration policy.

Japan may be retiring. I hope world monetary system is not like Japanese Social Insurance Agency!!!
 

You seem to have a very skewed version of America and how it actually is.
First off, while there are ghettoes and often there are definite areas where ethnicities stick together, I think the image you are portraying is a gross over exaggeration of the reality. Firstly, because it is not simply blacks and latinos living in poverty, there are people of all kinds living that way (including white people), but America does more to help the impoverished than most other countries and have all sorts of food bank systems and charities in place to help those people. You also imply that people of different ethnicities live in 'third world ghettos'...have you ever been to America? I assure you it is not the segregated 'blacks at the back of the bus' country that you seem to think it is.

Secondly, you imply that the US is vastly racist as most of the people in prison are African American, and while it's true that there is racism (as there is in every country) all you have to do is look at something like the Jena 6 protests to see that the majority condemn it.


That seems to be a popular argument. So and so country is older so that excuses any 'non-immigrant' sentiments they may have. It really surprises me that you and others keep going on about the fact that America is a country founded on immigration. I ask you...aren't most countries? Your saying that in the many years of Japanese and European history there has never been immigration and one people conquering another people and taking their land?

Step off the cultural pedestal for one second. America is easy to pick on from that standpoints, being new people to a new country, but in their short time of mass immigration they managed to change to world beyond anything Japan or Europe has ever done. We wouldn't be living in the modern world without America so maybe you shouldn't be so quick to shoot them down in the name of cultural superiority. Ask yourself if you would even be typing on a computer to people across the world if it weren't for America and it's openness to immigration.


So it's okay for the Japanese to eventually die out just so long as they don't become like the US? What kind of argument is that?

Globalization might be a grim world to you, others have a more cheery outlook on it. For example, what about those people living in war-torn countries, I bet they are glad for globalization when they can escape death and poverty to build a better life for themselves and their families. Or people living in countries like Japan, where they can leave the country and let loose, away from social expectation and constraints. Or all those people living in countries with rigid etiquette systems, social and class discrimination, or any number of barriers? I'll bet they are happy for globalization when they can move to a country that doesn't care who you are, about your background and social class and they are free to get a good job and rise above anything they would have achieved in their home country.

So, even though I'm not a pro-american or anything, I have to give credit where credit is due. Say what you might but America is a better place than some.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20080102/bs_ibd_ibd/20080102issues01
 
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