Savage killing of 100,000 persons in Tokyo

Han Chan · 16 May 2007

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the first mass killing of civilians in Japan. Tokyo was firebombed 10th March 1945 and maybe as many as 100 – 110,000 civilians were killed.

Wikipedia:

"After 2 hours of bombardment, Tokyo was engulfed in a firestorm. The fires were so hot they would ignite the clothing on individuals as they were fleeing. Many women were wearing what were called 'air-raid turbans' around their heads and the heat would ignite those turbans like a wick on a candle. The Japanese War History office estimated that the incendiary bombing of Tokyo led to 72,489 Japanese dead. This may have been the most devastating single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the firebombing of Dresden"....General Curtis LeMay later said: "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal."

Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia

This mass killing of civilians was premeditated murder. The US bombers choose the most densely populated area in downtown Tokyo in order to kill as many "enemies" as possible. But were the women and children in Tokyo really the enemy of USA?

Goldiegirl · 16 May 2007

When you are in a war you strike where you will do the most damage. Whether innocent people or not get killed isn't even an issue. At that time just being Japanese you were the enemy. So yes, they were enemies.

EmperorHirohito · 16 May 2007

In wartime many innocent men,women and children are killed by whatever means. As for World War 2 I think over 25 million people were killed during its course, thats what happens in wars, worst luck.

Goldiegirl · 16 May 2007

I just wanted to say Sorry for my reply above. I am so tired of hearing about who killed who in WWII. It was a war and people were killed, that is the point of war. I just don't understand why some of these threads are started. What is the point, what are you really trying so say or prove? That war sucks...yes that innocent people are killed...yes women and children suffer...yes soldiers get killed, tortured, imprisoned...yes. What am I supposed to take away from this?

Grandpa Frank · 16 May 2007

There are a few members here who...

can't seem to stand peace & quite. If they did not have a thread to debate and argue in, they would have to leave JREF due to boredom. I guess we can look at the threads as mini-history lessons and a way to learn new facts. It seems near impossible to think of new threads lately , and when we do, they get ignored? Oh well, there is always chat!

Uncle Frank

KirinMan · 16 May 2007

Uncle Frank said:
can't seem to stand peace & quite. If they did not have a thread to debate and argue in, they would have to leave JREF due to boredom. I guess we can look at the threads as mini-history lessons and a way to learn new facts. It seems near impossible to think of new threads lately , and when we do, they get ignored? Oh well, there is always chat!
Uncle Frank

I am one of those Uncle Frank, be that as it may I am more interested in debating social issues of the time and honestly do not want to discuss "how many people were killed by who or whom".

However I can understand some members desires to remind people of the horrors or war, it is as you know, one of the best ways to educate people not to repeat it. I get the feeling that there are many here that read these threads and may by chance learn something about history.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are many people out there that were unaware of the fire bombings of Tokyo, they dont get the same amount of "rememberance" as Hiroshima, Nagasaki or the Battle of Okinawa.

I also feel that Japan as a country, should adopt June 23rd, (Only here in Okinawa btw) as a national holiday, Irei-no-hi, (Okinawa's Memorial Day) as a national day of rememberance of the horrors of war.

Goldiegirl · 16 May 2007

Somehow I don't believe Obeika's observation was the point that was being made...I could be wrong. I think even the title is misleading. WWII is over...who cares anymore. It's like beating a dead horse. Does everyone know about the bombs sent to the west coast of the USA, carried by paper balloons? Do I need to bring up the innocent woman and her kids that were killed. Does it matter if it's one innocent person killed or is 20 worse or a million?

KirinMan · 16 May 2007

Goldiegirl said:
Somehow I don't believe Obeika's observation was the point that was being made...I could be wrong. I think even the title is misleading. WWII is over...who cares anymore. It's like beating a dead horse. Does everyone know about the bombs sent to the west coast of the USA, carried by paper balloons? Do I need to bring up the innocent woman and her kids that were killed. Does it matter if it's one innocent person killed or is 20 worse or a million?

I agree with you here, I was in my own way attempting to pull the thread in a more positive direction.

Clawn · 16 May 2007

Goldiegirl, although I agree with you about WWII being over and that it is brought up way too much in today's discussions, but like Obeika said, you have to remember that there will always be those who don't know these things yet and who need to be taught. So plan on hearing it for a while.

On topic: Many atrocities occur in war. In the last World War especially. But no matter which side it was, each committed heinous acts. Then again, that's what war is - a collection of heinous acts on an enormous scale. Each side tries to inflict as much damage to the opponent as possible, on as many fronts as possible. This includes military and economic fronts, as well as the destruction of key centers of commerce, production, government, etc. Many people are killed, innocent or otherwise, in the attempt of each side to attain its goals.

War sucks, we should try to remind ourselves of this every so often so as to not do it again.

Goldiegirl · 16 May 2007

Clawn said:
Goldiegirl, although I agree with you about WWII being over and that it is brought up way too much in today's discussions, but like Obeika said, you have to remember that there will always be those who don't know these things yet and who need to be taught. So plan on hearing it for a while.

I do not mind WWII or any other war being discussed. But when it comes down to who killed more or less, and who suffered more it's no longer a useful debate. Everyone suffered, people were killed, countries overtook other countries, bombed their cities, took prisoners, mistreated some of them, raped women, started fires, ruined crops in the field, genocide, what else am I missing? You see, common sense and a simple dictionary can tell you what war means. I think the better question here could have been..."Why did the USA bomb Tokyo during WWII?", or something of the sort. Do you see the difference?

yukio_michael · 16 May 2007

Han Chan said:
This mass killing of civilians was premeditated murder. The US bombers choose the most densely populated area in downtown Tokyo in order to kill as many ﾂ"enemiesﾂ" as possible. But were the women and children in Tokyo really the enemy of USA?

Oh wow, that's something else. Who would do such a thing? Maybe the Germans, on the side of the Axis, in London.... hmmm....

The Blitz - Wikipedia

This is a very typical European point of view... It's never mentioned that the United States, through great effort effectively REBUILT Europe after the war, but The United States has to suffer indignations such as this, by saying that the participants of World War II, young men, doing what they were asked of by their countries were evil men, when there are civilian casualties.

It's important for these facts to be known, yes, I'm quite sure they are taught in Japanese schools, what's not taught are the various and very real atrocities committed by the Japanese. (Of course they are not considered atrocities by the Japanese, because at the time the Japanese were not signators to the Geneva Convention).

I've not met one Japanese person who spoke of these things to me saying, your country committed crimes against my country in World War II, I think you owe me an apology... Nor have I had any care to discuss with them Unit 731, or the Bataan Death March... or anything else for that matter. These are the actions which lie on the heads of all of our father's fathers... And do you think for one moment, ANY of them felt good about some of these actions in the war when it was all over and done.

It's a weight that none of us know, and I hope none of us ever have to know.

Let's move on, there is a place for education, but no place for one-sided accusations about who was worse in the war... I believe in my heart, that the United States & the Allies were fighting a very important, very just war... There are good guys and bad guys in World War II, and you need a broad understanding of the many conflicts, and the true atrocities committed in order to appreciate this, educate yourself, but for now, let's just move on, shall we?

Your country has a great history as regards resistance to Nazi occupation during World War II... I'd be more interesting in hearing your opinions on that then your accusations of War Crimes during normal war-time activities.

EmperorHirohito · 16 May 2007

I think every country should have one day a year to remember all those who lost thier lives in the wars that this planet has seen.
In this country we have Rememberance Sunday during the month of November so that we can honour all those who gave their lives in the name of this country. I think Japan should do the same and honour all those who lost their lives, whatever the reason.
War is never a nice thing, regardless of what you say or think, as there is always someone else to dismiss what you say as sheer rubbish and that their version of events is the truth.
That is what our lovely modern world is like.

nocomment1 · 16 May 2007

If u look at it from a different perspective :?
it kinda looks upsie down
jk
but i think it was neccessary

Elizabeth van Kampen · 16 May 2007

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the first mass killing

Han Chan said:
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the first mass killing of civilians in Japan. Tokyo was firebombed 10th March 1945 and maybe as many as 100 – 110,000 civilians were killed.
Wikipedia:
ﾂ"After 2 hours of bombardment, Tokyo was engulfed in a firestorm. The fires were so hot they would ignite the clothing on individuals as they were fleeing. Many women were wearing what were called 'air-raid turbans' around their heads and the heat would ignite those turbans like a wick on a candle. The Japanese War History office estimated that the incendiary bombing of Tokyo led to 72,489 Japanese dead. This may have been the most devastating single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the firebombing of Dresdenﾂ"....General Curtis LeMay later said: "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal."
Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia
This mass killing of civilians was premeditated murder. The US bombers choose the most densely populated area in downtown Tokyo in order to kill as many ﾂ"enemiesﾂ" as possible. But were the women and children in Tokyo really the enemy of USA?

Han Chan,
I did read about those firebombs on Tokyo. It touched me especially because I knew that before the war there were so many wooden houses in Tokyo.
When I was in Tokyo in October 2000, we visited the Edo Museum. There I could imagine what a big fire Tokyo must have been after those firebombs.

In World War I millions soldiers have been killed.
In World War II millions of soldiers and millions civilians have been killed.

Today in World War III soldiers get killed and hundred thousands of innocent men, women and children get killed.
We have learned nothing at all!

But I am proud of Europe that we dicided never to start a war among ourselves again. That is an enormous profit, considering the big differences from one country to the other. Germany became really one of us, and that is beautiful.

Han Chan · 16 May 2007

Goldiegirl said:
I just wanted to say Sorry for my reply above. I am so tired of hearing about who killed who in WWII. It was a war and people were killed, that is the point of war. I just don't understand why some of these threads are started. What is the point, what are you really trying so say or prove? That war sucks...yes that innocent people are killed...yes women and children suffer...yes soldiers get killed, tortured, imprisoned...yes. What am I supposed to take away from this?

My point is: did we learn something?

I thought that targeting of civilians was now by most people seen as unacceptable. Certainly it seems like people who experiences large number of civilian casualties during WWII say: "Never again". It is not a coincidence that there are strong pasivist sentiments among germans and japanese. Now so called "collateral damage" is accepted if it not out of proprotion.

Apart from the moral issue, there are serious doubt over if the firebombings actually helped shortening the war. In London it strengthend the resolve of the population, and in germany it seems to have had similar effect. When the occupying forces were welcomed by the civilian populations in Germany and Japan it was rather, because the nightmare which their own rulers had started was over, than because people were thankful for the firebombs.

hideway · 16 May 2007

The reason atrocities like the tokyo bombing continue to happen is that very atitude of saying "Who cares, it is past". War doesn't have to mean raped women or genocide. War justifies nothing of these acts. And I am sorry some people still think like that.

Mike Cash · 16 May 2007

I am glad to see this mentioned. It gets totally forgotten and goes without remembrance even by the Japanese. In my opinion it was a much greater travesty than either of the atomic bombings, yet since the bombs were "conventional" it gets no press.

pipokun · 16 May 2007

Han Chan said:
My point is: did we learn something?
...

Treaty of San Francisco was the great thing.

Han Chan · 16 May 2007

hideway said:
The reason atrocities like the tokyo bombing continue to happen is that very atitude of saying "Who cares, it is past". War doesn't have to mean raped women or genocide. War justifies nothing of these acts. And I am sorry some people still think like that.

I agree war does not have to be like that!

I find that it could happen again if people are not deciding to change the attitude of: "When you fight the enemy even the civilians are targets".

Furtunately the international law regarding this issue has progressed since 1945:

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.

Art 51. - Protection of the civilian population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited."

.....- and yes, USA signed up to this!

I wonder if the american Military Industrial Complex willingly endorses this?
Military–industrial complex - Wikipedia

Goldiegirl · 16 May 2007

War is a travesty on all sides.

Mike Cash · 16 May 2007

I wonder if Han Chan is familiar with the concept/practice of 町工場....

Goldiegirl · 17 May 2007

There are no rules in war. I don't care who writes what and who signs it. If wars were not supposed to scare and terrorize people we wouldn't use guns or bombs or need soldiers; we could all just sit around and have a cup of tea and cookies and chit chat about our problems.

opps I forgot to add that when these rules of war are made up they can only work if all sides follow them...we know that is not case.

KirinMan · 17 May 2007

we could all just sit around and have a cup of tea and cookies and chit chat about our problems.

You mean like JREF?

caster51 · 25 May 2007

In my small city, about 2000 civillians were killed by bombing on 7th july 1945 in center of downtown.
BTW

TSUKUBAMIRAI, Ibaraki Pref. -- Wilma Cook remembers how hard her father tried to discover what happened to her brother, 2nd Lt. Eugene Cook, when his B-29 bomber crashed in Japan during an air raid in March 1945.
She was 22 at the time, and the only thing the family knew was that he was "missing in action."
"We figured that the plane crashed because it never returned from the mission. We knew that," Cook said.
But her father, William, then president of Prudential Insurance Co., kept searching.
"He wrote to all the relations of the 12 men. He interviewed people. . . . He did everything he could," Cook said. "It made a very big difference in my parents' life. My father was never quite comfortable after that. He was always searching, thinking he might turn up."
About five years ago, Cook, now 82, got hold of some research on B-29 crashes conducted in 1998 by Hidesaburo Kusama, a professor at Aichi Gakuin University. Cook learned that her brother's plane crashed in the village of Itabashi, now the city of Tsukubamirai, Ibaraki Prefecture, and that the villagers treated three survivors out of the 12-man crew.
Wilma Cook and her husband, Robert, who took her family name upon marriage, pose Wednesday with a portrait of her late brother, 2nd Lt. Eugene Cook, at a hotel in Tsukuba, Ibaraki Prefecture.
On Thursday, she and her husband, Robert, who assumed her family name upon marriage, attended their first memorial service for her brother at a monument Kusama built to the 12 airmen at the crash site in 2001.
"It's really wonderful that his sacrifices perpetuated in the place he died in Japan," Cook said of her brother, who was the copilot. "He was the only son (in the family), so he was the best one of all. He was a really fun guy."
So what did she manage to learn about Eugene's fate?
Eugene was 27 when he died, leaving behind a wife and daughter. His plane, Tall in the Saddle, was one of about 300 B-29 bombers that participated in the Great Tokyo Air Raid on March 10, 1945, which killed more than 80,000 people. The plane took off from Guam.
According to a book written by Kusama, when the plane crashed, the villagers found nine of the crew dead in the woods and buried them, placing a wooden cross atop the mound. The remaining three were taken to a shelter and handed over to military police.

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Ewok85 · 25 May 2007

POWs were treated better in America, Europe and Australia than they were by the Japanese.

Savage killing of 100,000 persons in Tokyo

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