Questions

[Jericho Desu]

Hey guys, I've got a bunch of questions to ask so I decided to make this thread, I hope some of you can help me out. I'm just starting off with a couple.

1: I read that one of the usages if なり is similar to とたん in the sense of something happening right after something else. For example:
家へ帰るなり、すぐに出かけた

There are supposedly two differences one being the tenses of the verb and the other I read is that なり is always used for something that is unexpected. However in one of my grammatical books it doesn't mention the second difference and has sentences like:
彼は、宿題を済ませるなり遊びに行ってしまった。

Which I don't see as having that nuance, so is that second difference true or not? Or is it just a nuance that doesn't necessarily have to be there depending on the context?


2: 失敗する可能性があるとすれば、止めましょう
失敗する可能性があれば、止めましょう
How is the meaning and/or nuance changed? Because as far as I can tell they are both just hypothesizing something.

 

[Toritoribe]

Hey guys, I've got a bunch of questions to ask so I decided to make this thread, I hope some of you can help me out. I'm just starting off with a couple.
1: I read that one of the usages if なり is similar to とたん in the sense of something happening right after something else. For example:
家へ帰るなり、すぐに出かけた
There are supposedly two differences one being the tenses of the verb and the other I read is that なり is always used for something that is unexpected. However in one of my grammatical books it doesn't mention the second difference and has sentences like:
彼は、宿題を済ませるなり遊びに行ってしまった。
Which I don't see as having that nuance, so is that second difference true or not? Or is it just a nuance that doesn't necessarily have to be there depending on the context?

Hmm, it seems to me that the nuance is from the context.
～するなり is hard to be used for non-volitional verbs unlike ～した途端, ～するとすぐ, ～するやいなや. I think this is more important difference.

2: 失敗する可能性があるとすれば、止めましょう
失敗する可能性があれば、止めましょう
How is the meaning and/or nuance changed? Because as far as I can tell they are both just hypothesizing something.

あれば is just a conditional; "if/when~". あるとすれば emphasizes the meaning, something like "it might be rare, but if~".

 

[Jericho Desu]

Thank you Toritoribe (sorry it took me so long to thank you)

I have another problem and thats with としても and にしても. Now the way I understand it so far is that they both have a usage involving hypothesis, however としても has other usages. In terms of hypothesis, what is the difference in nuance between the two? For example:
新車を買うとしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。
vs
新車を買うにしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following? Sorry of my questions are being a bit vague, any help would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[Elizabeth]

Thank you Toritoribe (sorry it took me so long to thank you)

I have another problem and thats with としても and にしても. Now the way I understand it so far is that they both have a usage involving hypothesis, however としても has other usages. In terms of hypothesis, what is the difference in nuance between the two? For example:
新車を買うとしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。
vs
新車を買うにしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following? Sorry of my questions are being a bit vague, any help would be appreciated, thanks.

Sorry I don't have a chance to answer now, but just to clarify やっぱ is just a silly colloquial way of saying やっぱり, right ? And しような could be しようね...

 

[Jericho Desu]

Sorry I don't have a chance to answer now, but just to clarify やっぱ is just a silly colloquial way of saying やっぱり, right ? And しような could be しようね..

My feeling is that the sentence is something the speaker is thinking/saying to themselves or to someone really close like a family member or friend. I also think Kansai too but not necessarily so.

 

[Glenn]

It's almost certainly something the speaker is saying to themselves. That type of language is used all over, though. It's not a Kansai thing. Sorry, can't offer much insight into としても vs. にしても, but I get the feeling they're pretty much interchangeable.

 

[Jericho Desu]

t's almost certainly something the speaker is saying to themselves. That type of language is used all over, though. It's not a Kansai thing. Sorry, can't offer much insight into としても vs. にしても, but I get the feeling they're pretty much interchangeable.

Do you think it could be something like how the に in に比べて emphasizes the word before more than と比べて? Like emphasizing the buying of the car?

 

[Toritoribe]

しような is a manly version of しようね, thus, it's used for confirmation. When speaking to themselves, しようかな is used.;-)


にしても can be used for a fact in the past. In that case, it often has negative connotation. See the example below.

新車を買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに。

The second or third person already bought a new car, and the speaker isn't pleased about it; something like 新車を買わないほうがよかったと思うけど、買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに. としても is rarely used for this case.

 

[Jericho Desu]

Your the man Toritoribe, thanks alot

 

[Glenn]

しような is a manly version of しようね, thus, it's used for confirmation. When speaking to themselves, しようかな is used.;-)

Really? You can't just be saying "if I were to get a new car, I'd go with a black one again" to yourself with しような in this instance?

 

[undrentide]

Really? You can't just be saying "if I were to get a new car, I'd go with a black one again" to yourself with しような in this instance?

な in しような is asking for another for assertion, agreement, like "shall we?/shan't we?"
It's a bit strange when speaking to oneself...

Without な, it's quite normal.

 

[Toritoribe]

Yeah, しような is used only when talking to the second person as same as しようね. When speaking to the speaker him/herself, しようかな, しよう(with the falling intonation), しようっと, etc. is used.

 

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, しような is used only when talking to the second person as same as しようね. When speaking to the speaker him/herself, しようかな, しよう(with the falling intonation), しようっと, etc. is used.

And するかな in contrast to しようかな I suppose would be speaking in the third person ?

I'm still a bit confused about the example, though. としても I think is basically analogous to (たとえ) でも or であっても as it indicates (to me) the speaker's hesitation or reluctance to engage in an action - in this case to buy the car. This is a major way that is different from とすれば or としたら.

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following?

Yeah, not necessarily emphasizing - like けど or other fillers, it simply doesn't have much meaning at all on its own. You can think of examples in English as well - "(But) even so" "in any case" "nevertheless" etc.

 

[Elizabeth]

しような is a manly version of しようね, thus, it's used for confirmation. When speaking to themselves, しようかな is used.;-)
にしても can be used for a fact in the past. In that case, it often has negative connotation. See the example below.
新車を買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに。
The second or third person already bought a new car, and the speaker isn't pleased about it; something like 新車を買わないほうがよかったと思うけど、買うにしても、相談してくれればよかったのに. としても is rarely used for this case.

I thought the basic function of にしても was as to convey the sense of an instructive, "even if" ... still "should"/must/command-type statement to a second or third party. It doesn't have to be in the past, though...:?

 

[Glenn]

窶
な in しような is asking for another for assertion, agreement, like "shall we?/shan't we?"
It's a bit strange when speaking to oneself...

Without な, it's quite normal.

Yeah, しような is used only when talking to the second person as same as しようね. When speaking to the speaker him/herself, しようかな, しよう(with the falling intonation), しようっと, etc. is used.

This is mind-blowing. First, I don't understand why... wait, are they both buying the car? That seems strange. It looks like the person is saying just that if they were to get a car now, it'd be a black one. So here's what I don't get: what are they asking for agreement about? It looks for all the world like it's just the speaker's thoughts about buying a car if they were to do so. Second, I thought な was pretty much restricted to internal comment-type statements, and for it to be seeking agreement it would come after a pause, like そうしよう、な？ I guess that's not right, though...

 

[Elizabeth]

Second, I thought な was pretty much restricted to internal comment-type statements, and for it to be seeking agreement it would come after a pause, like そうしよう、な？ I guess that's not right, though...

I think when you are wondering aloud to yourself, kane/kai is usually replaced with kana...

 

[Toritoribe]

I'm still a bit confused about the example, though. としても I think is basically analogous to (たとえ) でも or であっても as it indicates (to me) the speaker's hesitation or reluctance to engage in an action - in this case to buy the car. This is a major way that is different from とすれば or としたら.

Yeah, that nuance is from ても, so 買うとしても, 買うにしても, 買っても all can have that connotation.
e.g.
新車は、買っても来年だね。＝ 新車は、買うとしても/買うにしても来年だね。

This is mind-blowing. First, I don't understand why... wait, are they both buying the car? That seems strange. It looks like the person is saying just that if they were to get a car now, it'd be a black one. So here's what I don't get: what are they asking for agreement about? It looks for all the world like it's just the speaker's thoughts about buying a car if they were to do so.

It's a conversation in a family, for instance, from husband to wife. Does this make sense?;-)

Second, I thought な was pretty much restricted to internal comment-type statements, and for it to be seeking agreement it would come after a pause, like そうしよう、な？ I guess that's not right, though...

今度の試合、絶対勝とうな。(manly version of 勝とうね）

an example of an external comment-type statement seeking agreement without a pause

 

[Elizabeth]

Thank you Toritoribe (sorry it took me so long to thank you)

I have another problem and thats with としても and にしても. Now the way I understand it so far is that they both have a usage involving hypothesis, however としても has other usages. In terms of hypothesis, what is the difference in nuance between the two? For example:
新車を買うとしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。
vs
新車を買うにしても、今度もやっぱ黒いのにしような。

Also does にしても have other functions? I've heard of "それにしても" as a sort of sentence opener of some sort, maybe emphasizing the information following? Sorry of my questions are being a bit vague, any help would be appreciated, thanks.

I also asked a friend in Japan just out of curiosity, and here is his response (from work, so excuse the formality). ;-)

大きな違いがあるとは思えませんが、1.より2.の方が新車を
買う可能性が高いような感じがします。
人によっては逆に感じるかも知れません。

 

[Glenn]

It's a conversation in a family, for instance, from husband to wife. Does this make sense?;-)

Yeah, that makes more sense. I guess it's just that when I see しよう on its own like in the first instance, I assumed it was the speaker just talking about themselves.

 

[Jericho Desu]

I also asked a friend in Japan just out of curiosity, and here is his response (from work, so excuse the formality). ;-)


大きな違いがあるとは思えませんが、1.より2.の方が新 車を
買う可能性が高いような感じがします。
人によっては逆に感じるかも知れません。
ｱﾂ。

Interesting, thank you Elizabeth