Question regarding いじょうは and は more generally.
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I am. This is perhaps a broader question as to whether or not there can be multiple topics in a sentence and how that whole system works.
For example, in the sentence 日本に来た以上は、日本語をしっかり勉強したい。, which apparently translates to "Since I have come to Japan, I would like to study Japanese thoroughly", what exactly is the topic of the sentence? Is it the speaker, or is it the the fact that they have come to Japan?
I ask because it is said that in sentences like this there is an implied 私は at the beginning of the sentence. Therefore, the sentence becomes 私は日本に来た以上は、日本語をしっかり勉強したい also making 私 a/the topic.
So simply put(?), in this translation, which is the topic (私 or 以上), or are both?
TY.
For example, in the sentence 日本に来た以上は、日本語をしっかり勉強したい。, which apparently translates to "Since I have come to Japan, I would like to study Japanese thoroughly", what exactly is the topic of the sentence? Is it the speaker, or is it the the fact that they have come to Japan?
I ask because it is said that in sentences like this there is an implied 私は at the beginning of the sentence. Therefore, the sentence becomes 私は日本に来た以上は、日本語をしっかり勉強したい also making 私 a/the topic.
So simply put(?), in this translation, which is the topic (私 or 以上), or are both?
TY.
- 22 Feb 2008
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Both are the topics. 私 is the main-topic, and 日本に来た以上 is the sub-topic. Please refer to the following threads.
jref.com
jref.com
この机は私にはちょっと低い。 Help, please.
Hello guys, could you help me? この机は私にはちょっと低い。 means: "This desk is a little short(low) for me." But what I didn't understand is the use of この机は私にはちょっと低い。 に could be the particle of location, but は I don't know since は has been already used... Please, help me. Thank you.
jref.com
What the は?
Hello, friends; I don't get it: わたしは借りたお金はすぐ返します。 This is a sentence from my Minna text. Are both はs topic markers??? How can this be? Please elucidate! ;)
jref.com
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Hi. This might be getting into the weeds more than anyone is willing to discuss, but if anyone is willing to explain, I am willing to listen!
I was talking to my Japanese colleague about いじょう and he said he feels that ..いじょう has a nuance of "now that you've come this far..." or "now that you've finally reached this point...", because いじょう also has the meaning of "not less than; … and more; … and upwards; beyond, etc."
In certain cases, the word "since" reflects this nuance well. For example, "Since you've made it into Tokyo University, you should give it your all" 東京大学に入った以上、全力を頑張るべきです.
But it seems to me that my colleagues understanding is incomplete, and I would like clarification if this is indeed true.
For example, the sentence "So long as you are a student, you should study." 学生である以上は、勉強すべきです does not have the nuance of "now that you've come this far..." or "now that you've finally reached this point...", but you can reword this sentence to "Since you are a student..." and it has the same meaning.
So, is there anything to what my colleague said, or is he just wrong in his understanding of いじょう?
Ty for anyone willing to take the time.
I was talking to my Japanese colleague about いじょう and he said he feels that ..いじょう has a nuance of "now that you've come this far..." or "now that you've finally reached this point...", because いじょう also has the meaning of "not less than; … and more; … and upwards; beyond, etc."
In certain cases, the word "since" reflects this nuance well. For example, "Since you've made it into Tokyo University, you should give it your all" 東京大学に入った以上、全力を頑張るべきです.
But it seems to me that my colleagues understanding is incomplete, and I would like clarification if this is indeed true.
For example, the sentence "So long as you are a student, you should study." 学生である以上は、勉強すべきです does not have the nuance of "now that you've come this far..." or "now that you've finally reached this point...", but you can reword this sentence to "Since you are a student..." and it has the same meaning.
So, is there anything to what my colleague said, or is he just wrong in his understanding of いじょう?
Ty for anyone willing to take the time.
- 12 Oct 2013
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The problem isn't so much with your friend's explanation - it is a valid explanation/translation in some contexts. The problem is in expecting there is always a one-for-one translation into English that will be valid across all contexts. It means you have to file away three or four possible translations for 以上, and know which translation to use depending on the situation. I'm looking now at the very long list of possible translations for 以上, and I am struck by the versatility of this word. ("Since" comes in at #4 on the list of possible translations, validating your friend's explanation, but the word is so versatile you shouldn't expect your friend to give you a comprehensive list of all possible uses).
ejje.weblio.jp
And if you click that link, you will be exposed to all that is horrible in website design, including confusing layout, slow loading, intrusive advertisements, etc. Absolutely appalling web design.
「以上」の英語・英語例文・英語表現 - Weblio和英辞書
｢以上｣は英語でどう表現する？【単語】the mentioned above...【例文】The above is the gist of his article...【その他の表現】the aforementioned... - 1000万語以上収録！英訳・英文・英単語の使い分けならWeblio英和・和英辞書
ejje.weblio.jp
And if you click that link, you will be exposed to all that is horrible in website design, including confusing layout, slow loading, intrusive advertisements, etc. Absolutely appalling web design.
- 22 Feb 2008
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The main idea of ～以上（は） at the end of a subordinate clause is to show the reason of the main clause. That's why "since" is given as an English translation.
As Majestic-san pointed out, the nuance your colleague talked to you is actually provided by the context, not by 以上. Specifically, the past form 入った is the key. This form expresses the completion of the action, therefore your example sentence has a nuance of "now that you've come this far..." or "now that you've finally reached this point...". In fact, 東京大学に入る以上 doesn't have this nuance since it's the future tense. Similarly, 学生である expresses the present state, so your second example doesn't have that nuance, either.
As in the dictionary Majestic-san linked, ～以上（は）has almost the same meaning as ～からには. Unlike usual conjunctive particles for reason such like ～から or ～ので, the main clause of these expressions must have a specific mood, e.g., necessity, the speaker's will or order.
Here's examples.
旅行する以上（は）/からには、お金が要る。
就職した以上（は）/からには、一生懸命働こう。
自分で決めた以上（は）/からには、最後までやりなさい。
cf.
〇晴れているから/ので、外は暖かい。
×晴れている以上（は）/からには、外は暖かい。(外は暖かい doesn't have this mood.)
Dictionaries doesn't have these explanations. You need to refer to a grammar book or something.
As Majestic-san pointed out, the nuance your colleague talked to you is actually provided by the context, not by 以上. Specifically, the past form 入った is the key. This form expresses the completion of the action, therefore your example sentence has a nuance of "now that you've come this far..." or "now that you've finally reached this point...". In fact, 東京大学に入る以上 doesn't have this nuance since it's the future tense. Similarly, 学生である expresses the present state, so your second example doesn't have that nuance, either.
As in the dictionary Majestic-san linked, ～以上（は）has almost the same meaning as ～からには. Unlike usual conjunctive particles for reason such like ～から or ～ので, the main clause of these expressions must have a specific mood, e.g., necessity, the speaker's will or order.
Here's examples.
旅行する以上（は）/からには、お金が要る。
就職した以上（は）/からには、一生懸命働こう。
自分で決めた以上（は）/からには、最後までやりなさい。
cf.
〇晴れているから/ので、外は暖かい。
×晴れている以上（は）/からには、外は暖かい。(外は暖かい doesn't have this mood.)
Dictionaries doesn't have these explanations. You need to refer to a grammar book or something.
