Please help me with these(3)

GreenCat · 25 Oct 2009

Text version of the novel(found on the web):
http://www.stargate.uk.net/Bradbury, Ray - Dandelion Wine.txt

1)An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished

page 91
They shut their eyes. The memory-play began again. An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished,it seemed, by the man from Gum port falls.
"Thanks, I will have some iced tear." You could hear the cool liquid shock his stomach, in the silence. Then he turned hi gaze upon the old ladies like a doctor with a small light, looking into their eyes and nostrils and mouths.

flourish | meaning of flourish in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English | LDOCE
Flourish
3 [transitive] to wave something in your hand in order to make people notice it:

"An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished,it seemed, by the man from Gum port falls. "
The hat is on an iron trunk and yet it is flourished and that is done by a person?
Or
They are recollecting an image of "a hat on an iron trunk" because, in their minds, that image is somewhat associated with the man?

2)Black was there laying to left and right

page201
As they ran a giant hand lifted and tossed them aside, and Mr. Black was there laying to left and right and the boys, crying out, on the grass, saw the raving man, spittle showering the air from his biting teeth and widened lips. He
held the witch by her neck and one arm and glared with fiery eyes down on the boys.
"This is mine! To do with like I want. What you mean, taking her? Caused all my trouble--money, business,
everything. Here's what I think of her!"
"No!" shouted Douglas.

What is meaning of "laying to left and right"?
Present at left and right like a lay of land?
Or
spreading hands to left and right?
I can't figure out...please help.

3)the sere

"No," moaned Tom in despair. "School. School straight on ahead! Why, why do dime stores show things like that in windows before summer's even over! Ruin half the vacation!"
They walked on home and found Grandfather alone on the sere, bald-spotted lawn, plucking the last few dandelions.
They worked with him silently for a time and then Douglas, bent in his own shadow, said: "Tom, if this year's gone like
this, what will next year be, better or worse?"

"Grandfather alone on the sere, bald-spotted lawn", does this mean:He was standing on a lawn becoming withered and taken over by some other sort of plant or colour?

4)I'll unwind the world like the rubber band on a golf ball's insides every morning, put it back together every night.

page 236
"What could a ten-year-old brother do?"
"A ten-year-old brother'll be eleven next summer. I'll unwind the world like the rubber band on a golf ball's insides every morning, put it back together every night. Show you how, if you ask."
"Crazy."

Um, I don't get what this very talented 10 years old is talking about...
"unwind the world"=undo the world=turn back the time?
"like the rubber band on a golf ball's insides" , um, I cannot see how turning back the time and golf ball's ides can be relevant. What does this mean?

5) Death won't get a crumb by my mouth I won't keep and savor.

Colin Howell said:
I've tasted every victual and danced every dance; now there's one last tart I haven't bit on, one tune I haven't whistled. But I'm not afraid. I'm truly curious. Death won't get a crumb by my mouth I won't keep and savor.

Click to expand...

Heh, that's a bit hard to parse, isn't it? Don't worry, it's certainly not a standard saying. Here the speaker seems to be using two different metaphors for death in the same sentence. One is a personification, which is pretty common. But the other is as a piece of rare, delicious food to be fully experienced and enjoyed, as the speaker has done with all other experiences in her life. (Just before this statement she makes two other references to food which prepare the reader for this imagery: "tasted every victual" and "one last tart I haven't bit on".)

To explain the metaphor further, "won't get a crumb by my mouth" means that no crumb will escape the speaker's mouth; she will eat every bit. In adding "I won't keep and savor", the speaker is saying that she will retain each bit of this "food" in her mouth as long as possible to fully enjoy its flavor. The sentence is a bit more readable if you mentally add an implied "that":

Death won't get a crumb by my mouth [that] I won't keep and savor.
It's also a bit ungrammatical, repeating the negative to emphasize the point that nothing will be missed. (A more grammatical version might say "... that I could keep and savor." instead.)

He explained it beautifully without doubt. But I still cannot get "I won't keep and savor" part. I just cannot figure out the rule behind this...

Double negative like" No one can't fly" for emphasis, but because the agent of clause " I won't keep and savor" is "I", "won't" sounds like, to me, "I would not do something"....How can I tweak my head?

1)"Death won't get a crumb by my mouth that I could keep and savor."
2)"Death won't get a crumb by my mouth I won't keep and savor."
3)"a crumb I could keep and savor."
4)"a crumb I won't keep and savor"
3) and 4) are obviously different, but if 1) and 2) mean the same thing...
Could anyone please elaborate the rule here?

Half-n-Half · 26 Oct 2009

GreenCat said:
4)I'll unwind the world like the rubber band on a golf ball's insides every morning, put it back together every night.

Um, I don't get what this very talented 10 years old is talking about...
"unwind the world"=undo the world=turn back the time?
"like the rubber band on a golf ball's insides" , um, I cannot see how turning back the time and golf ball's ides can be relevant. What does this mean?

What he is saying by "unwinding the world like the rubber band on a golf ball's insides..." to me means he is going to discover the world. He is going to learn more about the world and take it apart to observe how it works, much like how you might take apart a clock to learn how it works.

Sorry that I can't help you with the others, but they are confusing to me, too :sorry:

undrentide · 26 Oct 2009

3)the sere

"No," moaned Tom in despair. "School. School straight on ahead! Why, why do dime stores show things like that in windows before summer's even over! Ruin half the vacation!"
They walked on home and found Grandfather alone on the sere, bald-spotted lawn, plucking the last few dandelions.
They worked with him silently for a time and then Douglas, bent in his own shadow, said: "Tom, if this year's gone like
this, what will next year be, better or worse?"

"Grandfather alone on the sere, bald-spotted lawn", does this mean:He was standing on a lawn becoming withered and taken over by some other sort of plant or colour?

I think it's describing that the old man is standing on the lawn which is (1) sere (withered) and (2) bald-spotted - the grass is dying and showing the soil/ground here and there.

Elizabeth · 26 Oct 2009

GreenCat said:
5) Death won't get a crumb by my mouth I won't keep and savor.

He explained it beautifully without doubt. But I still cannot get "I won't keep and savor" part. I just cannot figure out the rule behind this...

Double negative like" No one can't fly" for emphasis, but because the agent of clause " I won't keep and savor" is "I", "won't" sounds like, to me, "I would not do something"....How can I tweak my head?

1)"Death won't get a crumb by my mouth that I could keep and savor."
2)"Death won't get a crumb by my mouth I won't keep and savor."
3)"a crumb I could keep and savor."
4)"a crumb I won't keep and savor"
3) and 4) are obviously different, but if 1) and 2) mean the same thing...
Could anyone please elaborate the rule here?

It isn't set up as a conditional with two or more alternatives, one part of which is unclear or unresolved. Death won't get what the subject doesn't willingly give. And there is nothing I won't keep and savor as a tasty delicacy of every last morsel from mortal experience. It gives to me the impression of someone speaking from a position of authority. Death will get nothing. Any amount of semantic hairsplitting around "could" or "will not savor" is what the reader brings. The statement itself is an act of resolving or determining along a very firm course of action.

"Of the things I won't keep and savor, Death won't get a crumb by my mouth." with the underlying logic mentioned above could be your (very unliterary) primary rephrasing.

GreenCat · 26 Oct 2009

Thank you people for your replies

Half-n-Half said:
What he is saying by "unwinding the world like the rubber band on a golf ball's insides..." to me means he is going to discover the world. He is going to learn more about the world and take it apart to observe how it works, much like how you might take apart a clock to learn how it works.
Sorry that I can't help you with the others, but they are confusing to me, too :sorry:

I'm Japanese and yet do not understand Japanese sometimes, so don't be sorry. And thank you very much for answering my question.
I got it now

undrentide said:
I think it's describing that the old man is standing on the lawn which is (1) sere (withered) and (2) bald-spotted - the grass is dying and showing the soil/ground here and there.

For a moment I was baffled but I got it now. I was using wrong dictionaries and wondering "what is there to do with the succession of plants"?
My electronic dictionary, Shorter Oxford, only showed me the meaning of "sere" as noun and I had to check sear to find what sere means as adjective.

Dictionary.com and New Oxford American on my kindle did have it
Sorry about wasting your time for something as simple.

Elizabeth said:
It isn't set up as a conditional with two or more alternatives, one part of which is unclear or unresolved. Death won't get what the subject doesn't willingly give. And there is nothing I won't keep and savor as a tasty delicacy of every last morsel from mortal experience. It gives to me the impression of someone speaking from a position of authority. Death will get nothing. Any amount of semantic hairsplitting around "could" or "will not savor" is what the reader brings. The statement itself is an act of resolving or determining along a very firm course of action.

"Of the things I won't keep and savor, Death won't get a crumb by my mouth." with the underlying logic mentioned above could be your (very unliterary) primary rephrasing.

"there is nothing I won't keep and savor"
"It gives to me the impression of someone speaking from a position of authority."

Thanks Elizabeth-san, "nothing I won't keep and savor" definitely helps to understand this. It may take some time to ingest but now I know what I should be thinking about

bakaKanadajin · 27 Oct 2009

Seems that 3, 4 and 5 were addressed so I'll try 1 and 2.

GreenCat said:
Text version of the novel(found on the web):
http://www.stargate.uk.net/Bradbury, Ray - Dandelion Wine.txt

1)An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished

"An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished,it seemed, by the man from Gum port falls. "
The hat is on an iron trunk and yet it is flourished and that is done by a person?
Or
They are recollecting an image of "a hat on an iron trunk" because, in their minds, that image is somewhat associated with the man?

Often with passive tense the subject is unknown. In this case it was flourished as a result of the surrounding conditions, I believe.

flourish
4. To make bold, sweeping movements: The banner flourished in the wind.

I admit, I wasn't immediately clear on how a hat could flourish but when I read the above dictionary entry it became clearer. It would seem the hat simply got picked up by the wind, or something to that effect? None of the other entries make sense.

2)Black was there laying to left and right

What is meaning of "laying to left and right"?
Present at left and right like a lay of land?
Or
spreading hands to left and right?
I can't figure out...please help.

As a matter of the 'feeling' it produces for the native speaker, it sounds like he was just laying in a very akward position, as if his upper limbs were to one side and his lower body was to another. I admit though it's not clear, but it seems like the only rational explanation from the context given.

GreenCat · 31 Oct 2009

bakaKanadajin said:
Seems that 3, 4 and 5 were addressed so I'll try 1 and 2.

Often with passive tense the subject is unknown. In this case it was flourished as a result of the surrounding conditions, I believe.

flourish
4. To make bold, sweeping movements: The banner flourished in the wind.

I admit, I wasn't immediately clear on how a hat could flourish but when I read the above dictionary entry it became clearer. It would seem the hat simply got picked up by the wind, or something to that effect? None of the other entries make sense.

As a matter of the 'feeling' it produces for the native speaker, it sounds like he was just laying in a very akward position, as if his upper limbs were to one side and his lower body was to another. I admit though it's not clear, but it seems like the only rational explanation from the context given.

Thank you bakaKanadajin-san, I got the imagery now: It would've taken forever without your help.
Thank you so much

"Often with passive tense the subject is unknown. In this case it was flourished as a result of the surrounding conditions, I believe. "
Ya, I should've think about that, somewhat I believed "by the man" to be a agent but sure it could also mean "by the side of man".

"As a matter of the 'feeling' it produces for the native speaker, it sounds like he was just laying in a very akward position, as if his upper limbs were to one side and his lower body was to another. I admit though it's not clear, but it seems like the only rational explanation from the context given"
I see, so it is describes how the black looked like to the boys: A huge giant that lays across the land.

And sorry about slow response.

bakaKanadajin · 31 Oct 2009

Not quite.. not because he was a giant, but from the context you provided it seems like he was laying in the grass in a very awkward and contorted position.."and spittle was shooting from his biting teeth and widened lips." This indicates that the person laying there was maybe dying, in a state of madness or convulsing or having seizures or something of that nature. That is, if we assume Mr.Black to be the same as 'the raving man', which is the interpretation I got from that passage at a glance.

GreenCat · 31 Oct 2009

bakaKanadajin said:
Not quite.. not because he was a giant, but from the context you provided it seems like he was laying in the grass in a very awkward and contorted position.."and spittle was shooting from his biting teeth and widened lips." This indicates that the person laying there was maybe dying, in a state of madness or convulsing or having seizures or something of that nature. That is, if we assume Mr.Black to be the same as 'the raving man', which is the interpretation I got from that passage at a glance.

Hmm hard, Mr black gets the boys, so I thought it seems quite unlikely he was laying on the ground literally, but maybe he was laying on the ground blocking the path and jerked up to seize the boys. Never know.

Thanks for posting to correct me

Colin Howell · 1 Nov 2009

Ugh, now I wish I had replied sooner. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid BakaKanadajin is mistaken on the meaning of 2).

GreenCat said:
2)Black was there laying to left and right
page201

As they ran a giant hand lifted and tossed them aside, and Mr. Black was there laying to left and right and the boys, crying out, on the grass, saw the raving man, spittle showering the air from his biting teeth and widened lips. He held the witch by her neck and one arm and glared with fiery eyes down on the boys.
"This is mine! To do with like I want. What you mean, taking her? Caused all my trouble--money, business, everything. Here's what I think of her!"
"No!" shouted Douglas.

What is meaning of "laying to left and right"?
Present at left and right like a lay of land?
Or
spreading hands to left and right?
I can't figure out...please help.

In this context, the phrase "laying to" means "striking" or "attacking". (See definition 56c on "dictionary.reference.com/browse/lay+to". Sorry, I don't have enough posts to give a proper URL.) I think this is colloquial usage which is rather obsolete, so it's no surprise that none of the other native English speakers here recognized it. I don't know where this usage of the phrase came from, and it certainly doesn't make sense from the normal meanings of the words that compose it. It's just one of those meanings you have to pick up from context.

Colin Howell · 1 Nov 2009

GreenCat said:
1)An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished

page 91
They shut their eyes. The memory-play began again. An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished, it seemed, by the man from Gumport Falls.
"Thanks, I will have some iced tea." You could hear the cool liquid shock his stomach, in the silence. Then he turned his gaze upon the old ladies like a doctor with a small light, looking into their eyes and nostrils and mouths.
Flourish
3 [transitive] to wave something in your hand in order to make people notice it:
"An old straw hat on an iron trunk was suddenly flourished, it seemed, by the man from Gumport falls. "
The hat is on an iron trunk and yet it is flourished and that is done by a person?
Or
They are recollecting an image of "a hat on an iron trunk" because, in their minds, that image is somewhat associated with the man?

I think you were on track with your first guess. The hat is now sitting on the iron trunk, but in the "memory-play" (recollection) of the two sisters, the salesman from Gumport Falls seems to be flourishing it in his hand. This is just Bradbury's way of starting a flashback sequence.

(Again, apologies to bakaKanadajin for contradicting him, but I do think this is the intended meaning.)

GreenCat · 1 Nov 2009

Colin Howell said:
Ugh, now I wish I had replied sooner. I'm sorry, but I'm afraid BakaKanadajin is mistaken on the meaning of 2).
In this context, the phrase "laying to" means "striking" or "attacking". (See definition 56c on "dictionary.reference.com/browse/lay+to". Sorry, I don't have enough posts to give a proper URL.) I think this is colloquial usage which is rather obsolete, so it's no surprise that none of the other native English speakers here recognized it. I don't know where this usage of the phrase came from, and it certainly doesn't make sense from the normal meanings of the words that compose it. It's just one of those meanings you have to pick up from context.

Thank you Colin Howell, your extensive knowledge of English language is truly impressive.

56. lay to,
a. Nautical. to check the motion of (a ship).
b. Nautical. to put (a ship) in a dock or other place of safety.
c. to attack vigorously.
d. to put forth effort; apply oneself.

I see, I should have checked more thoroughly.
Maybe derived form "lay-siege to"?

And please don't be sorry as you have no obligation to help me

Thank you so much for your post.

Colin Howell · 1 Nov 2009

GreenCat, I actually think you've chosen a rather difficult work to read, and I think it's impressive that you're sticking with it, considering some of the confusing passages you've run into. Because of his habits of using peculiar imagery and unconventional, poetic language, Bradbury isn't always an easy writer to understand even for a native English speaker, and that seems to be especially true in Dandelion Wine.

One other difficult factor may be that some of the viewpoints in this book may be several generations removed from your own. Bradbury wrote the book in 1957, but it's set in the year 1928, and some of the characters in it are old enough to remember events as far back as the 1860s.

Colin Howell · 1 Nov 2009

GreenCat said:
Thank you Colin Howell, your extensive knowledge of English language is truly impressive.

*blushes*

I see, I should have checked more thoroughly.

Well, it wasn't all that easy to find, and I already knew what to look for. Sometimes you just need help.

Maybe derived form "lay-siege to"?

I suppose. It would be nice to know the derivation, but it's really hard to tell with a weird phrase like that.

GreenCat · 2 Nov 2009

Colin Howell said:
GreenCat, I actually think you've chosen a rather difficult work to read, and I think it's impressive that you're sticking with it, considering some of the confusing passages you've run into. Because of his habits of using peculiar imagery and unconventional, poetic language, Bradbury isn't always an easy writer to understand even for a native English speaker, and that seems to be especially true in Dandelion Wine.
One other difficult factor may be that some of the viewpoints in this book may be several generations removed from your own. Bradbury wrote the book in 1957, but it's set in the year 1928, and some of the characters in it are old enough to remember events as far back as the 1860s.

Thank Colin Howell for posting.
Yes, it was pretty difficult:I've been re-reading to find and understand the parts that I could figure out before.
And certainly, generation gap makes it even harder, yet language hardly is an orphan and I am hoping that learning about the father somewhat helps to know the child: Not sure if I am up to it though.

I decided to read Dandelion Wine because I need the ability to handle "imagery and unconventional poetic language". The size of vocabulary that I understand is probably close to 7000 to 8000, but because my understanding is too shallow and lacking skill to handle imagery used in English language, I can't read or understand things fast enough.

It is only my opinion, but and ability to visualise concepts or imagery seems to be necessary, to certain degree, for wolfing information and coping with complex concepts at descent speed:I guess they work as mnemonic or helps to compress ideas into easy-to-handle-size.

I was and still am compelled by necessity, but nevertheless adding new facilities, of thinking and expressing, to myself is delight, and a bit narcotic. The process is nothing but a pain though. The book, dandelion wine, itself is pretty enjoyable too.

Mockingbird0 · 15 Nov 2009

Colin is right. Bradbury's Dandelion Wine is a difficult book even for native speakers, so don't be surprised if you find yourself baffled occasionally.

Please help me with these(3)

GreenCat

先輩

Half-n-Half

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

bakaKanadajin

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

bakaKanadajin

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

Colin Howell

先輩

Colin Howell

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

Colin Howell

先輩

Colin Howell

先輩

GreenCat

先輩

Mockingbird0

後輩

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