plain form (tense)　・　だって

raikado · 5 Oct 2016

明日で一週間経つ and 明日で一週間になる are both valid, but 過ぎる is different. It should be 昨日で/今日で一週間（が）過ぎた or 今日で/明日で一週間（が）過ぎることになる/過ぎたことになる.

Ahh. When you said the above I thought you meant that 明日で一週間過ぎる is not valid AT ALL, but you were only saying that 過ぎる is not valid as a present state like 経つ?

Toritoribe said:
The point is that it's not a description of a past event. It is an explanation of the cause/reason, as you can see in the existence of the explanatry の/ん. Thus, she is actually saying 再会したとたん打ちあけるから、細かい話聞く気なくなっちゃった. If it's simply a description of a past event, the present form can't be used there.
cf.
○あの時桂馬くんは、再会したとたん打ちあけたもの。
×あの時桂馬くんは、再会したとたん打ちあけるもの。

I see. Thank you! It makes sense now.

Also, is this related to なんてことしてくれるの in any way? To be honest I still don't understand why the plain form can be used in なんてことしてくれるの or in the other examples that you gave me at that time. I can sometimes identify this usage, but grammatically, it seems like an exception. I just can't make the connection between this and other grammar that I already know. So, is there maybe a way that you could explain it?

Toritoribe · 6 Oct 2016

raikado said:
When you said the above I thought you meant that 明日で一週間過ぎる is not valid AT ALL, but you were only saying that 過ぎる is not valid as a present state like 経つ?

I meant 明日で一週間過ぎる is not valid. 今日で一週間過ぎる, either.

raikado said:
is this related to なんてことしてくれるの in any way?

The position the viewpoint.

raikado · 7 Oct 2016

Toritoribe said:
I meant 明日で一週間過ぎる is not valid. 今日で一週間過ぎる, either.

Hmm...You said that 過ぎる can't express the present state, but I can't figure out why you must view it as present state and not future ("will pass". Similarly to how 行く is future in 私は明朝大阪へ行きます). Would 明日はあれから一週間過ぎる be valid?

Toritoribe said:
The position the viewpoint.

So, this is not a description of a past event either, but a cause/reason (for why the speaker is upset, maybe) ?

Toritoribe · 8 Oct 2016

raikado said:
Would 明日はあれから一週間過ぎる be valid?

No. 過ぎる can't be used as the main predicative in that meaning/usage.

raikado said:
So, this is not a description of a past event either, but a cause/reason (for why the speaker is upset, maybe) ?

It's not cause/reason. Whether conditional, cause/reason or "the speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now", the viewpoint is put at the time of the event.

raikado · 10 Oct 2016

Toritoribe said:
No. 過ぎる can't be used as the main predicative in that meaning/usage.

Hmm...And if we are talking about something other than time? For instance, is "この嵐は明日過ぎるだろう。" valid?

Toritoribe said:
It's not cause/reason. Whether conditional, cause/reason or "the speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now", the viewpoint is put at the time of the event.

Thank you for explaining this!

Toritoribe · 10 Oct 2016

嵐が過ぎる is mostly used as "the disturbance subsides" figuratively. Your example would be acceptable, but something like もうじき嵐も過ぎるだろう would be more natural. As for real storms, 明日には風もおさまるだろう or 台風は明日には通り過ぎるだろう is more common.

raikado · 13 Oct 2016

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to give this some thought and search for examples, which in the end I couldn't find anyway .

Can 過ぎる also be used with time moments? For example 急がないと予定の時間が過ぎる。. I was thinking that the reason 明日で１０日過ぎる doesn't work is because １０日 is a length of time instead of just a point in time. Also, I won't insist on 過ぎる more than this. I was just surprised at first because I thought for sure it would work.

EDIT: Just a quick question about もうじき嵐も過ぎるだろう. Does that も mean "too/also"?

Toritoribe · 14 Oct 2016

Hmm, it sounds somehow awkward to me. 急がないと約束の時間が/を過ぎてしまう is OK.

raikado said:
Just a quick question about もうじき嵐も過ぎるだろう. Does that も mean "too/also"?

It's more likely used to soften the nuance of が or は (i.e., a kind of 婉曲).

raikado · 17 Oct 2016

Toritoribe said:
Hmm, it sounds somehow awkward to me. 急がないと約束の時間が/を過ぎてしまう is OK.

Thank you!

Toritoribe said:
It's more likely used to soften the nuance of が or は (i.e., a kind of 婉曲).

Does this meaning ("soften the nuance of が or は") come from the "too/also" meaning?

Toritoribe · 18 Oct 2016

Yes, that's right.

raikado · 21 Oct 2016

Thank you! Though it seems like this も particle doesn't get any easier to understand...with all its different possible meanings.

I have one more example with plain form that I don't understand, please.

c) A:ん？今何か言いましたか？
B:いいえ、何も言いませんよ。
I saw someone give this example to some unrelated grammar question. Assuming it is correct, I don't understand why B answers with 言いません and not 言いませんでした. Is でした simply omitted? Or could 言わない also work?

mdchachi · 25 Oct 2016

raikado said:
I don't understand why B answers with 言いません and not 言いませんでした.

Past tense makes more sense to me too.

Mike Cash · 25 Oct 2016

raikado said:
I have one more example with plain form that I don't understand, please.

c) A:ん？今何か言いましたか？
B:いいえ、何も言いませんよ。
I saw someone give this example to some unrelated grammar question. Assuming it is correct, I don't understand why B answers with 言いません and not 言いませんでした. Is でした simply omitted? Or could 言わない also work?

Context, context, context.

I would expect this usage in a situation where A is strongly proposing to do something, strongly making a point, chewing someone out, speechifying, or in some other way pontificating and not in a mood to tolerate interruptions or objections from his listeners. While 何も言いませんでした would simply indicate, "I didn't say anything", 何も言いません would indicate "I didn't say anything and I'm not going to say anything." ("I'm not going to try to stop you, argue with you, reason with you, plead with you or interfere with you. Don't mind me; go right ahead").

言いません and 言わない are grammatically equivalent. Whether 言わない could be used instead is, once again, a matter of context. It depends on the relation and relative status of the two speakers. You can't necessarily assume the nature of the relation based on that mere snippet. People sometimes move the politeness level up a notch when switching to a confrontational tone. So it is entirely possible that A normally speaks to or addresses B in less polite speech and was even doing so immediately prior to the snippet posted. It is entirely possible that B similarly speaks to A in less polite speech. It is impossible to say based on such an isolated clip. But it wouldn't be unusual to find a sudden change in politeness level used as an indicator of a "mode switch" to a confrontational tone.

Where the heck is @Toritoribe ? I hope he isn't sick.

raikado · 25 Oct 2016

Mike Cash said:
I would expect this usage in a situation where A is strongly proposing to do something, strongly making a point, chewing someone out, speechifying, or in some other way pontificating and not in a mood to tolerate interruptions or objections from his listeners. While 何も言いませんでした would simply indicate, "I didn't say anything", 何も言いません would indicate "I didn't say anything and I'm not going to say anything." ("I'm not going to try to stop you, argue with you, reason with you, plead with you or interfere with you. Don't mind me; go right ahead").

Thank you! I'm pretty sure it was just a mistake then. The sentence was part of someone's answer to "～と言っていた vs ～と言った", and it had nothing to do with what you are describing. I don't know why I focused on it so much...

Regarding 言わない, I was simply asking "If it should be 言いませんでした, but でした is omitted, then how would it work if plain form was used?". Though I am kind of glad it got misunderstood this time. Your answer is really useful to keep in mind.

Mike Cash said:
Where the heck is

@Toritoribe ? I hope he isn't sick.

Yeah. Maybe he's just been busy. Hopefully he can come back soon.

Mike Cash · 25 Oct 2016

If it were just ordinary regular usage, I would expect the answer to be 何も言って(い)ません, not 何も言いませんでした.

Toritoribe · 27 Oct 2016

I agree with Mike-san's explanation. The present tense shows the speaker's strong intention something like "I don't have any intention to say something".

I'm not sick. As some of you might know via news, a big earthquake hit a city next to my hometown on last Friday. The seismic intensity was 5+ here, but fortunately, there was almost no damage nearby my house. However, I had to go there to help my fellow traders, since the infrastructures are badly damaged.

raikado · 28 Oct 2016

Mike Cash said:
If it were just ordinary regular usage, I would expect the answer to be 何も言って(い)ません, not 何も言いませんでした.

Hmm, makes sense. Thank you!

Thank you too, Toritoribe! Glad to hear you're ok.

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