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plain form (tense) ・ だって

raikado

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Hello,

1)
Before this, Asagi said something that made it sound like their father was dead.
Ena says in the last panel あさぎお姉ちゃんはすぐお父さん殺しちゃうー. Is 殺しちゃう interchangeable with 殺しちゃった? Or is she saying "Asagi always kills father immediately"?

Because of すぐ, the former seems most likely, but I really have no confidence when I see the plain form used like this...

2) 女性の置かれた立場は変わらない。私にとっては男社会との闘いでした
I've been meaning to ask this for a while...letslearn posted this some time ago. I thought that 変わらない was future tense when in fact it indicates the present state.
a) Then, does anything change if 変わらない is replaced with 変わっていない?
b) What happens if まだ is added? (まだ女性の置かれた立場は変わらない)
Does this now mean that the conditions for the things to start changing are not met yet? Or does it translate more like まだ来ない would?

3) Asagi returns home from vacation and asks Ena:
あさぎ:あ TVとっといてくれた?
えな:うん。予約しといたから [とれてるはず] (this is in smaller text in the same speech bubble)
ふうか:予約だってすごいね
a) Judging by Ena's reply, すごい doesn't mean "amazing" here, but "terrible" (⒈ぞっとするほど恐ろしい。非常に気味が悪い。). Is this right?
b) Is だって replaceable with でも? So it means "even": "Even pre-programming(予約) is terribly hard."
 
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Mike Cash

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1. The use of a tense that indicates habitual action, together with the fact he isn't actually dead and can't be murdered more then once, should be a clue that 殺す is used idiomatically here.

2b. That would give the impression the speaker has an expectation of change.

3. It means "amazing". She's setting up a pun, which you should be able to spot.
 

raikado

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1) Yes, I know 殺す isn't used literally there. I was focusing on whether or not 殺しちゃう indicates past tense or habitual action. I've seen the plain form used for past tense before, so can't this be past tense too?
I'm really bad when it comes to this usage though.

2b) Thank you, I didn't know that. It's not really what I meant to ask but I realized that I might have some misunderstandings anyway, and I think I asked it pretty badly too. I will wait for an answer to #2a first before continuing with this (just to make sure I'm not asking something nonsensical). Sorry!

3) Thank you, but then, what is だって? I took it as "terrible" because of what Ena says, and because だって made sense like that. If すごい is "amazing" then だって doesn't make sense as "even", so is it "too/also"?
 
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Mike Cash

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Think of it as 「予約だ」って instead of 予約 <space> だって and maybe it will be easier to see how だって isn't always "even/too/also"
 

Toritoribe

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1)
すぐ means "easily" there, not "immediately". あさぎお姉ちゃんは(いつも/しょっちゅう)簡単にお父さん殺しちゃう makes more sense?

すぐ【直ぐ】
2[副]
2 手数がかからないさま。容易に。簡単に。「交番で聞けば道順は―わかります」「この問題なら―解ける」
すぐ【直ぐ】の意味 - goo国語辞書

2) a)
変わっていない is a present state comparing to the past. 変わらない more likely indicates an absolute position (and it also can connote これからも).

b)
I agree with Mike-san.

3)
だって is "copula + って for quotation" there, as Mike-san pointed out.
That's two sentences 予約だって。すごいね。, not a single sentence 予約だってすごいね。, by the way. This is the cause of your confusion, right?
 

raikado

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1) Yes, I understand what the sentence means. I somehow got in my head that the plain form could be used to indicate past tense...My bad! I still have some questions about some previous sentences I asked about, but I'll wait until question #2 is done with. I didn't think I'd these so wrong.

2) Ok, I got the meaning wrong then. I thought that 変わらない had the same meaning as what you are describing for 変わっていない ("hasn't changed").

Still, what do you mean by ”変わらない more likely indicates an absolute position". Something like "Women's place in society isn't changing", maybe? (In the same way that 車が止まらない means "The car isn't stopping")

3) Yes. Thank you!
 

Toritoribe

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"Isn't stopping" is actually a movement. It's more likely 動かない.
 

raikado

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Yeah...I guess 動かない is closer to 変わらない, but I don't really see a big difference from とまらない.

I've been constantly going between "it makes sense" and "it doesn't" with this 変わらない. I think my problem is that I've always seen 車が動かない (and other similar sentences) translated with feature tense (
"The car won't move") before this and never thought about it too much. But it sounds off for this 変わらない. I think I get the meaning, but it's just hard to break the habit and not immediately think of it as "won't change".


If 変わらない is similar to 動かない then what I wanted to ask about まだ doesn't make sense anymore, but I'd like to clarify something about まだ来ない(Habitual actions: plain form and ~ている | Japan Forum).

At the time I didn't understand its meaning so I treated it as some sort of exception. I think I didn't understand it because I kept thinking of it as "won't come". But this 来ない should be understood the same way as 動かない is understood in 車が動かない, right?

EDIT: I hope my question makes sense...I don't really know how to phrase it.
 
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Toritoribe

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とまらない is 動いている. They are different both semantically and in the viewpoint of aspect (とまる is punctual, but 動く is durative).

I'm afraid to say this, but I can't understand your question, unfortunately.
 

raikado

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とまらない is 動いている.
In the case of 車が止まらない? I thought someone would say this if, for example, they were to press the brakes and the car wouldn't stop. とまらない doesn't seem to be just 動いている.

Similarly, in 車が動かない, I thought someone would say this if they were trying to move their car and it just would not move. The idea isn't that the car is at rest right now, but that it won't move / it can't move.

This is what I was thinking about when I said they were the same. And this is how I always understood them...is this wrong?
 

Toritoribe

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Sorry but I can't get what you mean. Are you talking about the meaning of a specific verb or general idea of the dictionary form of verbs?
 

raikado

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I'm not sure, do you mean my last post doesn't make sense? It has no relation to 変わらない.
 

Toritoribe

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You want to know just the difference between とまらない and 動かない??

EDIT:
As an example of the same meaning, how about this?
生きている限り心臓は止まらない。
生きている限り心臓は動いている。
 

raikado

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Okay...I'm really sorry! If I had just taken a look in the dictionary, maybe this could've been solved immediately. In 女性の置かれた立場は変わらない。, 変わる is used with this meaning, right?
物事と物事との間に違いがある。異なる。
かわる【変(わ)る】の意味 - goo国語辞書

I was thinking of it as
物事の形やようすなどが今までと違った状態になる。
㋐ある状態から他の状態に移る。変化する。
So # is 状態動詞 and # is 動作動詞, right? What I tried to ask in post #6 was "Is 変わらない a 動作動詞, just like 止まらない?", but the terms 動作動詞 or 状態動詞 didn't even cross mind, so I had no idea how to explain it. Again, sorry!


You want to know just the difference between とまらない and 動かない??

EDIT:
As an example of the same meaning, how about this?
生きている限り心臓は止まらない。
生きている限り心臓は動いている。
Regarding this, I agree that in that case the idea is the same. But I was thinking about something like:
私は車が止まらない夢を見たことがあります。
私は車が動いている夢を見たことがあります。
They are completely different in this case. This might not be what you meant though. I think since post #6 onwards we've been talking about different things.
 
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Toritoribe

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Unlike 異なる or 違う, the affirmative form 変わる is hardly used as predicative in the meaning of the definition #4.

But I was thinking about something like:
私は車が止まらない夢を見たことがあります。
私は車が動いている夢を見たことがあります。
They are completely different in this case. This might not be what you meant though.
I think it's the difference where the focus is on. How about 車がずっと動いている夢を見た?
 

raikado

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I think it's the difference where the focus is on. How about 車がずっと動いている夢を見た?
I also thought that adding ずっと might make them similar. The focus seems to be a little different in that one too, but I get what you meant now. I took it the wrong way at first. Thank you, both for explaining this and 変わる!

I'd like to ask one more thing about this. In "女性の置かれた立場は変わっていない", is 変わる used with definition #1? It seems to be like that, judging by how you described it, but I'm asking just to make sure.
 

raikado

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Ok. Thanks! I was just thinking that it can't have the meaning you describe if it was definition #4, but I wanted to make sure.


まったく・・・なんてことしてくれるの?(question #5 from も and に / double が / どうもこうも / なんてことしてくれるの | Japan Forum)
Going back to question #1...I asked a long time ago about this sentence, and why the plain form can be used even though the speaker talks about a past event. The answer was:
The tense in Japanese is different from the one in English. "The speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now" is the reason why くれる/くれてる can be used, as I wrote. It is present or present progressive, not past, in this sense.
So, when Ena says あさぎお姉ちゃんはすぐお父さん殺しちゃうー, she doesn't suffer from what was done and therefore she can't be talking about what has happened. I understand this now after re-reading that thread.

I'd like to ask if the following sentences are examples of this usage of the plain form ("the speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now"), and if they are not, why can the plain form be used?

a) 再会したとたん打ちあけるんだもん。(purpose + へきた / の中でも | Japan Forum)

b) A: そういえば・・・もう私がゾンビになって10日ぐらい経つんですよねー・・・
B: そっか・・・もうそんな経つんだよなー
(question #2 from past + としても VS plain form + としても ・ 経つ VS 経った ・ の + omission ・ NはNで | Japan Forum)

In sentence (a), I can see how the speaker suffers from what has been done, but I can't really see it with 経つ in sentence (b).
 
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Toritoribe

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a)
The present form is used there because the speaker is speaking from the viewpoint at the time.

b)
今日であれから10日経つ and 今日であれから10日経った are the same in meaning. It should be 昨日であれから10日経った, if this can be helpful for your understanding.
 

raikado

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a) Ohh, Thanks! That didn't cross my mind at all. I thought it's done only in written language.

b) I think I get it, but just to make sure...In both your example and my example, 経つ is present tense and NOT future tense, right?

I was having problems with it because in english, 経つ is not translated with a present tense, but with "have passed". I think it doesn't seem as strange after I saw になります used in the same way though.

私たちがエイゴの時間を始めてから3年になります。= It’s been three years since we launched Time for English.

I'm curious if 過ぎる can also be used in the same way. Compared to when I was searching for 経つ, I found way fewer hits on google. So, can "私たちがエイゴの時間を始めてから3年過ぎる。" be used to mean the same thing?
 

Toritoribe

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明日で一週間経つ and 明日で一週間になる are both valid, but 過ぎる is different. It should be 昨日で/今日で一週間(が)過ぎた or 今日で/明日で一週間(が)過ぎることになる/過ぎたことになる.
 

raikado

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Yes, but in all those cases, 経つ and なる are future tense now, right?
Although I expected 明日で一週間が過ぎる to be valid.

Also, can you confirm this, please? It's important.
In both your example and my example, 経つ is present tense and NOT future tense, right?
 

Toritoribe

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I think the interpretation "future" can be possible, thus, 今日で10日経つ refers to 今日が終わると, as the same nuance to 明日で/明日になったら.

I thought it's done only in written language.
It's quite often used, for instance, in the structure 彼が通りを歩いているのを見た (「俺、昨日あいつが通り歩いてるの見たよ」 in spoken language). This is the difference in tense between Japanese and English I mentioned in the page you linked above.
 

raikado

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I think the interpretation "future" can be possible, thus, 今日で10日経つ refers to 今日が終わると, as the same nuance to 明日で/明日になったら.
Ohh, ok. But I assume you don't usually interpret it like that? Also, it's pretty hard to interpret it as future in "もう私がゾンビになって10日ぐらい経つんですよねー", or "私たちがエイゴの時間を始めてから3年になります。", right?

Also, is 明日で一週間が過ぎる not valid because it is interpreted as "With tomorrow, it will pass as much time as it would pass in a week." ? (明日で一週間分の時間が過ぎる。hopefully my attempt at translating it in japanese makes it more understandable.)

It's quite often used, for instance, in the structure 彼が通りを歩いているのを見た (「俺、昨日あいつが通り歩いてるの見たよ」 in spoken language).
When you said that the speaker is speaking from the viewpoint at that time, I thought you were talking about that thing when in a story the narrator sometimes switches from past to plain form.
In your example, the tense of the main sentence is still past (見た), while in my example the plain form is used (打ちあける). That's why your example doesn't seem strange but mine does. Are they the same thing though?
This is the difference in tense between Japanese and English I mentioned in the page you linked above.
Sorry, do you mean this?
The tense in Japanese is different from the one in English. "The speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now" is the reason why くれる/くれてる can be used, as I wrote. It is present or present progressive, not past, in this sense.

なんてことしてくれるの? can't be used for future things.
 

Toritoribe

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Ohh, ok. But I assume you don't usually interpret it like that? Also, it's pretty hard to interpret it as future in "もう私がゾンビになって10日ぐらい経つんですよねー", or "私たちがエイゴの時間を始めてから3年になります。", right?

Also, is 明日で一週間が過ぎる not valid because it is interpreted as "With tomorrow, it will pass as much time as it would pass in a week." ? (明日で一週間分の時間が過ぎる。hopefully my attempt at translating it in japanese makes it more understandable.)
10日ぐらい has width, so it can be 明日で10日経つ and 昨日で10日経つ. Similarly, 今年で3年になります can be 先月で3年になります/なりました or 来月で3年になります. I think it's not so meaningful to distinguish future and present in these examples.
過ぎる can't express the present state, so 今日で一週間が過ぎる is also invalid. It's from the type of the verb, as I wrote.

When you said that the speaker is speaking from the viewpoint at that time, I thought you were talking about that thing when in a story the narrator sometimes switches from past to plain form.
In your example, the tense of the main sentence is still past (見た), while in my example the plain form is used (打ちあける). That's why your example doesn't seem strange but mine does. Are they the same thing though?
The point is that it's not a description of a past event. It is an explanation of the cause/reason, as you can see in the existence of the explanatry の/ん. Thus, she is actually saying 再会したとたん打ちあけるから、細かい話聞く気なくなっちゃった. If it's simply a description of a past event, the present form can't be used there.
cf.
○あの時桂馬くんは、再会したとたん打ちあけたもの。
×あの時桂馬くんは、再会したとたん打ちあけるもの。

Sorry, do you mean this?
なんで教えてくれないの?(=くれなかったの?)
先日はありがとうございます。(=ありがとうございました)
も and に / double が / どうもこうも / なんてことしてくれるの | Japan Forum

Japanese people also tend to be confused at the difference in tense when learning English.
も and に / double が / どうもこうも / なんてことしてくれるの | Japan Forum
 
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