parting

[Wouter]

I've been away from this community for some time, the reason for this is the following:

about 4 months ago I had met a nice Japanese girl who's studying classical music in Germany now, she lives by herself and she's 5 years older than I.
I will not tell all the details, but I'll tell the important part.
I fell in love with her and she fell in love with me too.
After we had met for the first time, we decided to live together in Germany for about 1 month as a trial period.
During that month we had a very good time, at least I think so and I have never really sensed any strong negative feelings from her side.
We have argued just twice and it was not about really negative things in our relationship. It was just because she was worried about some problems in my life, but in my opinion these problems are not so bad and not insurmountable.
So apart from that, we had a great time. We went walking in the park, bought icecream, we cooked together, went to the zoo, visited some beautiful cities, went shopping together, took a boat trip, we went walking in the mountains until nightfall, we even went out when it was twilight to take pictures of cute rabbits.
Anyway, it suffices to say that we did a lot of things together and I had always the feeling that we were both enjoying and feeling comfortable.
After some time I went back to Belgium and from that time on we could only talk over msn or e-mail or very seldom over the phone.
1 month later we decided it was time to tell her parents about me. They are still in Japan.
At first they seemed to be ok with our relationship, but after a while they called her back and they started to ask so many questions about my personality to her (especially about my bad points)
Then they said to her that they don't want her to keep this relationship and when she told them that I would visit her again soon, they became really angry.
Her parents and herself are conservative Japanese people and according to them I am not a good person to live with their daughter.
She agreed with her parents and told me that she wanted to end our relationship. I was really shocked and I tried everything to show her that I want to be a good man for her. She did a last effort to persuade her family, but the effect was the opposite and she said that the things that were bad about me were until then conceiled from her and her parents and her brother had told her what it really was.
How can they judge me so easily? they have never seen me, nor have I ever had any form of contact with them.
Her answer was that Japanese people and especially her parents have a very strong intuition and can sense what kind of person I am even if they haven't seen me.
What happend next was a big flaming war between me and her about our cultural differences, the relationship with our parents and even about the history of our nations.
In the end all that was left was mutually offending and insulting each others feelings.
She wrote such terrible things to me and I did the same back.
I really regret that now because I feel it's not in my nature.
Now it's 3 days ago since I last contacted with her and I feel I can't continue my life like this. I can't end a relationship with someone like this, it is too painful and I think it's wrong and childish.

I'm sorry I'm writing all this here, but it was really too much for me at the moment. All I have now is this forum to talk about my feelings.
I can't cry in front of my family or friends.
All those good memories about her are rushing through my head, images of her and the places we have been to keep burning in my mind.
Every thought connects to her.
I really believed this could have been a great relationship, I wanted it to last forever...
Actually I'm totally lost and I can't believe this went wrong so badly.
Can someone tell me where it went wrong?
Was she really so good in masking her true feelings, like many Japanese, or was I just too plain stupid to notice it?
What should I do next? Should I go to her and apologize to her in person?
Even though she has hurted me badly and I her, a part of me still loves her.
Lastly I want to say something strange: When I went to bed yesterday, I got a strange vision. All I could see was a Japanese woman hanging to the cross, just like Jesus.
I am not religeous at all, so this image really unsettled me.
Does someone have any idea what this might mean?

I'm sorry to post such a lame story here...

 

[Kinsao]

I am so sorry to hear of your bad news.

I am very bad at saying something helpful in this situation, so I hope you get replies from some of the other forum members that are more useful. I can only say how I would act if I was in your shoes. I would want to go straight to her... I would go to her, and say exactly what I was thinking and feeling... all of it... But of course, I can't say if that would succeed to mend the relationship. I always want to be honest and speak my mind, and I think you are an honest person too, and I think you cannot do more than tell her how you feel. But it depends too on her, and how she is feeling in her heart...

I am very sad for you and I hope, I really hope that you are able to succeed to mend the relationship between you...

Sorry, I am not good at these kinds of advice, but I wanted you to know people are thinking of you in any case... :sorry:

 

[Rich303]

That breaks my heart,dude.
I am just in the early stages of a friendship with a special lady, and already my feelings are growing. I can only begin to imagine how I will feel about her if we get much closer.
To get that far and then lose it all must be a real p*sser.

Parents can be horrible sometimes. I think I've argued with my dad about every girl I've ever been out with. No one is good enough. He has dispalyed signs of being a racist snob.
He wants what he thinks is best for me, not what I think is best for me.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Hi Wouter. I'm sorry to hear about your problem. It sounds like things looked really promising there for a while. My advice would be to contact her again, apologise for the bad things you said to her, and say that you want to discuss it in person. If possible, try to show that her parents are wrong about the negative things they said about you, as that might make her think twice about what they have said. If the two of you make another go of it, chances are her parents will come around eventually. If she won't stand up to them, then you may have to accept she is not the girl for you, no matter how hard that may seem. My husband's mother did not want him to marry me. He didn't speak to his family for a year, but they came around eventually and now his mum puts up with me, and I get on fine with the rest of the family. If this girl really cares for you she will take a risk, if not, cut your losses. Lots of girls would appreciate a sensitive guy like you.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Mars Man]

A tormenting pain indeed. My heart goes out to you as it also recalls the tears and anguish of the loss of love, the darkened alley which seems to close in from all sides.

there is still a chance that things can mend, between you and her. I don't have all the details, and cannot make any fair judgments, but the possibility should be there. One thing that may be good to keep in mind, is that if through all the fighting done, she teamed up with her parent's way of thinking of you, it would be a very uphill battle, would demand a strong, and positive determination to be patient, a lot of creativity--and most importantly, really being open and honest about yourself and to yourself.

I wouldn't want to be guilty of giving false hope, but surely there is a chance. Do your best, give it all you've got, and if things don't work out. . . well, you will have grown tremediously, and will have become just that much greater a person !!

 

[Pachipro]

Sorry to hear abought your plight Wouter as I had a very similar experience happen to me. I thought I had forgoten about it, but your story brought it to the forefront.

I had been dating this one Japanese woman for about a year and things were really beginning to get serious between us. She told her parents about me and they invited me over for dinner.

Her father was an English teacher at a minor university. After dinner he really started to question me about my aims in life and why I loved his daughter. I could understand that it was like some kind of psychological test and answered his questions truthfully. It was like I was being interrogated and I really was uncomfortable after a while. Soon it was time to leave and I left.

She called me the next day and we agreed to meet in a coffee shop. I was shocked to all hell when she informed me, with tears in her eyes, that she could no longer see me because her father had forbidden her to see me anymore after today!

This was just unimaginable to me. Where was her say in all this? I argued with her that she was an individual and should have the right to decide for herself who she would see or not see. As much as she said she loved me and didn't want to, she said that she had to obey her father and we parted company right there about an hour later, never to see each other again. As much as I tried to get an answer as to why her father didn't like me, she wouldn't say. It could be that it was because I was a gaijin, but she didn't say and I'll never know.

Of course I wasn't about give up that easily. I waited for her at the train stations as I knew her schedule and did my best to win her back but to no avail. She just would not go against her fathers wishes. After a week I realized that it was all for naught and she would not go against her father. So I stopped stalking her.

We never really argued or hurled insults at each other, but we did have a heated discussion about the differences in our cultures and the right of an individual to choose and, as much as I didn't want to accept it, things are different in Japan.

If your friend is anything like the woman I had the same experience with, I see very, very little chance of you two getting back together again. Sorry to be so blunt here, but it is reality. Maybe there is a chance and you could at least give it a try as I did. She may go against the wishes of her parents. You never know. If you think it's worth the effort go for it. But do realize after a while that you just have to give up as, if she is determined to follow her parents' wishes no amount of love for you or you begging her will make her change her mind.

I am just a little disappointed to see that some 25 yrs later things haven't changed much. But do not dispair as I understand what you are going through as it took me a long while to get over her. You are only 20 yrs old and not much younger than I was when I went through this. You'll get through it. I guarantee it. I did and about a year later I met my wife who I have been with now for 24 years.

 

[MajideSaiaku]

Y our should apologise anyway, it doesnt matter if it doesnt get you together again, i think its sad she's letting her parents dictate her relationships to her, especially based on you being a foreigner, but, it happens, especially in parts of the world where family is more important then your own life.

You should find the power to apologise sincerely, honestly, and calmly, dont make buts or ifs or maybes or if only's, just say how you feel, apologise for everything that went wrong, things that were your fault, and things you feel sorry for anyway.
Let her know you had such a great time and that it was really important to you, be honest how you felt and that you wont forget it (you wont, that much i can assume) and yeah, just try and make the effort to part on good terms, and be honest to her with your feelings.

If she cares, and wants it to work, she will respond and you can continue from there, at a slow decent pace, if not, then, at least you can try and comfort your pain knowing that you handled yourself like a gentleman, and didnt end it on bad terms.


Also tell her that you respect her culture's emphasis on family, and that its an admirable quality to hold family so importantly, but that in your humble honest opinion, without wanting to convey insult, that you feel, personally, that two people who love each other shouldnt loose whats important to things like parents not agreeing, and that if her parents care for her, they will come to accept her decision to remain with the man she loves.

Hope my advice is some kinda help, ive never been in that situation, so apart from that, all i can say is good luck and, sorry to hear your hurtin man, stay strong.

 

[Wouter]

Thanks for the advice and comfort everyone

I am truly convinced that I should make up with her.
Just that we don't part from each other with feelings of hate or disgust.
So I want to apologize to her, preferably in person, because I've lost faith in things like e-mail and messengers to maintain a relationship of this kind.

The last few days I've tried everything to contact her, I've called her on both home phone and mobile phone several times, I've sent e-mails to all her adresses, I've sent an sms and I've even tried to contact one of her best friends by e-mail, but to no avail.
I don't know where she is now, I don't know what she's doing and more importantly, I don't know how she's feeling right now.

I've been thinking to go to Germany and try to find out what she's doing, but I don't have the means to go there now. Of course I could do an effort, but if it turns out to be a failure, it's just wasted time and money.

I am really very worried about her condition now and I regret so many things I've said and done although she's also to blame.
What would you do if you were in my situation?

 

[Duo]

If she is ignoring ur appeals to end it in good terms then i would just stop trying. Even though you may have had a very very good time together and shared a lot of deep meaningful feelings with her, just the fact that she is discarting all that away by ignoring you like this may mean that she maybe wasn't as serious as you in you relationship. It happens at times and you just have to accept it, i know it's easier said than done but the best way I think would just be to remeber those good times with a smile and just move on to the next level --- next person. I would delete all her emails, fone number, etc etc and try to get along with things, who knows someone new may come along. It is not true that luv can't be replaced. If a new interest were to spring up she would get ur attention and you wouldn't be thinkin about ur past as much anymore. There is no point in just feeling bad all the time, well it may be a bit hard in the begining but still just have the determination to go on with life and things do usually work themselves out.

 

[Mike Cash]

I've been away from this community for some time, the reason for this is the following:

about 4 months ago I had met a nice Japanese girl who's studying classical music in Germany now, she lives by herself and she's 5 years older than I.

Is this the same Japanese woman you were madly, desperately in love with and horribly depressed about several months ago?

 

[kirei_na_me]

I agree with Duo 100%. It sounds as if she might want the relationship to end, so I would think about trying to stop contacting her. If you know Japanese people, you know that in general, they want it to be over when it's over. They don't like any signs of desperation. I don't think anyone does, really. If you keep pursuing her and she doesn't want to be pursued, it will just make things worse and will ruin any chance you might have with getting back with her.

I think the best thing is just let it be. If she wants to come back to you, she will.

I don't want to say this is what happened, but maybe she used her parents for an excuse to break up? That is probably not what it was, but there is a chance it could be, right? You need to think of all possibilities.

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I just want you to consider everything. I like you and I don't want you to be hurt further.

I sincerely hope everything turns out for the best, Wouter.

 

[Wouter]

Thanks Duo and Kirei, I think you are right.
To mikecash: no, this is not the same woman.

The reasonons why I was in love with a Japanese woman twice in only 1 year time are the following:
-I really fell in love with Japanese culture and history, obviously this love was too obsessive and blindly.
-I've been in Japan twice and have made many friends there.
-I thought that the best way to be able to look in the true Japanese soul was to start a relationship with a Japanese woman. (of course, I would never begin a relationship if I don't love the girl)
-Japanese girls are just irresistably cute and sometimes sexy. (in my humble opinion)

I think I've learned a lot from these experiences, so next time I start a relationship I will consider better about the person, especially when it's a person from another culture who is not ready to accept our differences.

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks Duo and Kirei, I think you are right.
To mikecash: no, this is not the same woman.

The reasonons why I was in love with a Japanese woman twice in only 1 year time are the following:
-I really fell in love with Japanese culture and history, obviously this love was too obsessive and blindly.
-I've been in Japan twice and have made many friends there.
-I thought that the best way to be able to look in the true Japanese soul was to start a relationship with a Japanese woman. (of course, I would never begin a relationship if I don't love the girl)
-Japanese girls are just irresistably cute and sometimes sexy. (in my humble opinion)

I think I've learned a lot from these experiences, so next time I start a relationship I will consider better about the person, especially when it's a person from another culture who is not ready to accept our differences.

I sincerely hope you have learned something, although you may want to reexamine own approach and attitudes towards these women as individuals
instead of dragging around that old standby excuse of 'cultural differences.'
Love may or may not be relevant in beginning a relationship, before you even really know the person, but if you're only pursuing them for their Japaneseness or for an insight into the soul of the culture it's going to backfire every time. No one from anywhere wants to be appreciated primarily for their ethnicity or social background or harrassed for ending a relationship....I'm not saying your desperation is actually causing these failures, but if you are as interested in the Japanese as you say, it sounds like you need to start seeing life from their perspective as well.

 

[Wouter]

I sincerely hope you have learned something, although you may want to reexamine own approach and attitudes towards these women as individuals
instead of dragging around that old standby excuse of 'cultural differences.'
Love may or may not be relevant in beginning a relationship, before you even really know the person, but if you're only pursuing them for their Japaneseness or for an insight into the soul of the culture it's going to backfire every time. No one from anywhere wants to be appreciated primarily for their ethnicity or social background or harrassed for ending a relationship....I'm not saying your desperation is actually causing these failures, but if you are as interested in the Japanese as you say, it sounds like you need to start seeing life from their perspective as well.

yeah, I admit my aproach was wrong and I should have respected my friends more as individuals, but it is really difficult when you're quite new to a totally different culture because you don't know what you can expect from them.
Also many Japanese girls just want to have a western boyfriend or man just because they are western, so it's sometimes really hard to understand their mind. I'm sure the same goes for many Japanese regarding westerners.
Though my approach was wrong, I think I've tried very hard to understand their culture and way of thinking. Maybe I wasn't ready for it yet....

 

[innerfire]

The reasonons why I was in love with a Japanese woman twice in only 1 year time are the following:
-I really fell in love with Japanese culture and history, obviously this love was too obsessive and blindly.
-I've been in Japan twice and have made many friends there.
-I thought that the best way to be able to look in the true Japanese soul was to start a relationship with a Japanese woman. (of course, I would never begin a relationship if I don't love the girl)
-Japanese girls are just irresistably cute and sometimes sexy. (in my humble opinion)

I think I've learned a lot from these experiences, so next time I start a relationship I will consider better about the person, especially when it's a person from another culture who is not ready to accept our differences.

Ooh no Wouter...
I think you blew me away with this......

I feel sorry about your story. But those words made me think that the Japanese girl's parents were somewhat right. Sorry for saying this at time like this.

 

[lexico]

Of course it must be very difficult for you to separate all the reasons that possibly added towards the relationship in a positive way, and having a g/f or b/f in the new language does accelerate the learning of a new language and culture although in a personally biased way. They also say, always the individual person first, and everything else second.

Something handed down from the first Free Mason Master Socrates:

"The man should never value the relationship more than the woman does, as life, for the abstract-thinking man, is transient and not to be relied upon as if unchanging reality for eternity."

This is just legend, so don't quote me on it, Wouter. ;-)

 

[Rich303]

What Doris was missing

This makes me think about my new friend.

I think my ex pen-pal was rather put out at my interest in Japanese women. Maybe she thought that any japanese girl would do and felt it de-valued our friendship - even though she was mad about englishmen.

My new friend likes;

- her job! she is very passionate and creative
- she is funny
- cool music,(she has a record player!)
- design,
- cars I like (even though I don't drive) - VW Karmann Ghia
- funny films I like ('Hairspray','Crybaby').
- she is interested in my DJing,
- and outer space

- and other things that I am discovering every day

It is little things like this that fascinate me about her.

Oh yes, and I fancy her like mad! Sorry to boast like this.

 

[lexico]

It is little things like this that fascinate me about her.

Oh yes, and I fancy her like mad! Sorry to boast like this.

I'll just say that's great it's working out for you. I happen to see the relationship thing as highly personal and every single time it's different. Some partners are super positive while some had serious problems that kept them from seeing the good side of many things. I used to be happy when around the happy ones; whereas whatever hangovers either she or I had would often spill over to the other side. A little coordination would help, but I don't think there is any formula that makes everything okay regardless of the little things. No need to be sorry; it's uplifting in a way because you've given hope by example !
The healing inside Wouter is the most difficult part. Get busy with something that will take your mind off it, and move around a lot, staying productive, focused as much as possible. Time heals everything; the greater the distance, the smaller it looks, and eventually disappears into oblivion.

 

[kirei_na_me]

I agree. You need a new focus, Wouter. You need to find something, get busy, and with time, you will heal.

 

[Elizabeth]

I've been away from this community for some time, the reason for this is the following:

about 4 months ago I had met a nice Japanese girl who's studying classical music in Germany now, she lives by herself and she's 5 years older than I.
I will not tell all the details, but I'll tell the important part.
I fell in love with her and she fell in love with me too.
After we had met for the first time, we decided to live together in Germany for about 1 month as a trial period.
During that month we had a very good time, at least I think so and I have never really sensed any strong negative feelings from her side.
We have argued just twice and it was not about really negative things in our relationship. It was just because she was worried about some problems in my life, but in my opinion these problems are not so bad and not insurmountable.
So apart from that, we had a great time. We went walking in the park, bought icecream, we cooked together, went to the zoo, visited some beautiful cities, went shopping together, took a boat trip, we went walking in the mountains until nightfall, we even went out when it was twilight to take pictures of cute rabbits.
Anyway, it suffices to say that we did a lot of things together and I had always the feeling that we were both enjoying and feeling comfortable.

I'm just curious about one thing though, did you ever really talk directly, even jokingly, about missing each other after the seperation, or that you may gradually lose interest when not together etc. Because they are so difficult to penetrate (although not necessarily requiring a lot of maintenance once things have stabilized at a good point) relationships with Japanese people can go through several phases before everything seems normal again. So maybe you're not giving things time to develop enough in the beginning before getting too serious ? Being as genki as possible, cheerful, funny without making a lot of demands or ask a lot of probing questions has usually worked well for me. If you can take on that persona until the two of you become one, a long-term couple, _completely_ and totally at ease with each other, the rewards of being in a Japanese person's 'inner circle' are incalcuable. But it's something that has to be earned and fought for over a period of years. At least that has been my experience.

 

[Duo]

I'm just curious about one thing though, did you ever really talk directly, even jokingly, about missing each other after the seperation, or that you may gradually lose interest when not together etc. Because they are so difficult to penetrate (although not necessarily requiring a lot of maintenance once things have stabilized at a good point) relationships with Japanese people can go through several phases before everything seems normal again. So maybe you're not giving things time to develop enough in the beginning before getting too serious ? Being as genki as possible, cheerful, funny without making a lot of demands or ask a lot of probing questions has usually worked well for me. If you can take on that persona until the two of you become one, a long-term couple, _completely_ and totally at ease with each other, the rewards of being in a Japanese person's 'inner circle' are incalcuable. But it's something that has to be earned and fought for over a period of years. At least that has been my experience.

Seems like 2 much work for me. Building a relationship should be a 2 way process, why should westerners pay the price to spend all this effort and time to gain the confidence of a japenese person and give ours to them for granted. I'm not up for that arrangement. Both individuals in a relationship should have the same mutual respect and understanding not one trying his hardest and going all out just to get in the innercircle of sm other individual. As far as I can they can have their confidence and innercircle to themselves, if they play it like that.

 

[kirei_na_me]

I agree with you again, Duo. I dont' think you should have to give way more than you receive.

 

[Duo]

heh, I've noticed smth else as well, like in the forum I have only observed foreigners complaining or talking about being hurt by some japanese person, or talkin about the difficulties of being with a japanese person, be it their family or the person itself.

I never really heard or read here a japanese person complaining about not being able to get close to a western person. I wonder why that is ? I mean look at wouter, this is like the second time he gets burned by a japanese girl, be it that there may different situations and reasons or whatever, fact remains that's like 2/2. How many endless threads we've seen like this? It makes me think is it really worth it to get involved with a Japanese girl after all this stuff i've been reading from other people's first hand experience ? I mean why go through all the trouble really? Japan is so far away, the cultures are so different, a stable relationship needs constant presence and mutual basis of connection, be it cultural or language or societal. well, just thinkin out loud I guess, i hope i won't get crucified for my rogue thoughts

 

[Elizabeth]

Seems like 2 much work for me. Building a relationship should be a 2 way process, why should westerners pay the price to spend all this effort and time to gain the confidence of a japenese person and give ours to them for granted. I'm not up for that arrangement. Both individuals in a relationship should have the same mutual respect and understanding not one trying his hardest and going all out just to get in the innercircle of sm other individual. As far as I can they can have their confidence and innercircle to themselves, if they play it like that.

My only observation on these series of posts from Wouter is that perhaps he needs a to practice a more measured approach better and not worry unduly about the outcome from the beginning. As well as inquire more directly into her feelings, talk more freely about the relationship rather than assuming too much. It is my feeling that Japanese people care more about liking and feeling comfortable with a person on a very basic level than their respect or confidence. Certainly one person can't do all the work -- they just have to have the space to show their feelings in their own way. For me it was making an extra effort to acquire stuff I wanted, getting my letters responded to immediately and it great detail etc....which would be very artificial now, but it was a great bait to start things off...

 

[Duo]

I undestand what you mean, just that for me if 2 ppl like each other that is the basis of things and u go from there. I like things simple and neat. U like me and I like you so lets be together, sure we can have sm issues but if u really like me and I really like you then these issues can be worked out or outmanouvered without 2 much effort or whatever. Perhaps i'm not very sophisticated or watever, but I just really enjoy it when I don't have to work to hard to be with someone I like. Being with somebody shouldn't be work, but fun