OT: Gay culture in the ME

[Macrobiotic]

The tabloid quotes official police sources. This information is official government statistics. At least in Scandinavia, middle-easterners are responsible for most rapes and pretty much all gay rapes. First of all their cultures want to exterminate peaceful gay people, secondly they have a strong tendency towards same sex rape. It's a strange contradiction but from how I understand it, in arab countries if a completely heterosexual man with a more "pretty" appearance is raped by a closet-homosexual then the rape victim is counted as "homosexual" and risks legal problems etc while the rapist does a "manly hetero thing" and is forgiven. This is arab culture as I perceive it.

 

[Macrobiotic]

I have to wonder if Middle Eastern culture about homosexual rape is similar to male prison culture in America, where rape is a tool of violence and domination, and only the guy on the receiving end is considered gay or the "female" in the encounter, which is a big part of the disrespect intended.
I have to admit that my speculation here is probably derived from the excellent novel, "The Kite Runner" as much as anything.

I think you're correct about that but I also think there's an ancient, pre-islamic homoerotic element in middle-eastern culture. In Ancient Persia for example, male slave lovers were many times favored and this tradition seems to still live on even under strict islamic moralism. I have honestly never met a people which in general have more obvious bisexual tendencies than persians and I have met quite a few since they are a large immigrant group around where I live.

Also, it seems the turks were notorious in Greece and the Balkans for their "sodomite" behavior. Even swedish chronicles seems to have documented this when swedish soldiers mingled with turks in some occupied area in Europe during the time when Sweden was briefly the dominant military power in the north. The soldiers wrote home that the turkish men were hanging around them and tried to push them to sex. This seems to have freaked them out since this behaviour was totally unknown to scandinavian and german people at the time. At this time people in northern Europe had a life expectancy at around 35 years or so and a lot of the soldiers were actually teenagers who possibly had no sexual experience.

Sorry for this minor digression, I just think it's funny how middle-easterners react so strongly against homosexuality and gay marriage when it seems to be so deeply rooted in their cultures for thousands of years.
This story explains a little more I think. I don't think this is all that uncommon. Some arab boys lured a french 15-year old with them, planned it carefully, just to gang rape him.

Dubai and rape: French youth tells his story (Published 2007)

 

[Abdur Rahman]

The tabloid quotes official police sources. This information is official government statistics. At least in Scandinavia, middle-easterners are responsible for most rapes and pretty much all gay rapes. First of all their cultures want to exterminate peaceful gay people, secondly they have a strong tendency towards same sex rape. It's a strange contradiction but from how I understand it, in arab countries if a completely heterosexual man with a more "pretty" appearance is raped by a closet-homosexual then the rape victim is counted as "homosexual" and risks legal problems etc while the rapist does a "manly hetero thing" and is forgiven. This is arab culture as I perceive it.

where did you take this information ?
And which part of middle east do you talk about?
I live in middle east and
most of your information aren't true

 

[Mark of Zorro]

The tabloid quotes official police sources.

Not good enough. Its a damned tabloid for crying out loud! They lie, skew and mischaracterize, sometimes all at the same time!

At least in Scandinavia, middle-easterners are responsible for most rapes and pretty much all gay rapes.

You need a genuine source for this. Your same tabloid also talks about space aliens visiting Earth!

Look, I am not saying that there is no rise in rape and other crimes in Scandanavia. I am not saying that immigrants, Muslim and otherwise are not responsible for the rise. What I take issue with is your contention that they are responsible for MOST and PRETTY MUCH ALL rapes and gay rapes. Its saying way, way, WAAAAY too much. It smells just like the typical tabloid bull.

Also, while you are quick to blame Islam and M.E. culture, you overlook the fact these are POOR, UNEDUCATED IMMIGRANTS not yet integrated into the local culture. We had the same thing with Irish and Italians in America and they WEREN'T MUSLIMS!

First of all their cultures want to exterminate peaceful gay people,

Right. They all think alike. They have a hive mind. Like the Borg!

Yet somehow they have failed to exterminate gays!

Could you define the methods of extermination, and give us some evidence of this being carried out? Gas chambers perhaps?

secondly they have a strong tendency towards same sex rape.

Right. "They" want to exterminate "themselves", as "they all" have this tendency.

Look, I could buy into some self-loathing. Its common enough that the biggest, loudest homophobics are closet gays, either cleverly covering their tracks or venturing into split personality disorder. But you have in no way come close to explaining a mass attempt at mass assisted suicide that somehow never quite comes, and this in a culture somewhat more accepting of suicide in the name of Jihad.

It does not compute.

I could even accept that those from M.E. cultures have a predisposition toward homosexual rape (I would be quick to follow up on their oppressive sexual mores and the differences in how we have dealt with our own in the west, both historically and today. Possible explanations there).

But its pretty far fetched to accuse the same people of gay rape tendencies and a desire to exterminate themselves.

In fact, your latest link points to a culture of loopholes that makes gay rape possible, does it not? Seems more like they are trying to preserve the status quo.

Reminds me of the rampant over-looking of prostitution in medieval Europe as even the clergy realized that sexual frustration was not just going disappear by willpower alone.

 

[Macrobiotic]

This is not a tabloid, it's the official norwegian state radio presenting the same statistics from the police authorities.

Overfallsvoldtekter begﾃ･s av ikke-vestlige innvandrere - Nyheter - NRK Nyheter

I'm not saying all middle-easterners are closet homosexuals, just that their cultures traditionally have sodomite and homo erotic tendencies. With "sodomite" I mean the rape of males and not normal homosexual relationships between consenting people.

Middle easterners do not desire to exterminate themselves. They don't view the aggressor as gay. To them a gay rapist raping a straight man is not gay, the receiving part however counts as "gay" and is subject to extermination by middle-eastern cultural standards. This is where honor murder and such comes into the picture. There's a reason middle-eastern immigrants who identify themselves as gay by western standards even need protected identity in some cases. People of their own ethnicity wants to kill them. From a middle eastern perspective, a heterosexual man who is raped is the same as an openly gay person and both are despised. However, someone who is homosexual by western standards, that is someone attracted to the same sex, might very well be considered heterosexual in a middle-eastern culture as long as he's never the receiving part.

 

[Macrobiotic]

where did you take this information ?
And which part of middle east do you talk about?
I live in middle east and
most of your information aren't true

I have grown up surrounded by middle-eastern people in a multicultural city. Daily, I have heard kurds and arabs say things like "you need to get punishment raped" to swedish boys who "looked at them the wrong way" or something.
I have personally intervened and helped a 16 year old iraqi girl who was held to the ground by a group of 12-year old iraqi arab and kurdish boys trying to pull her pants down.
I have witnessed and testified to the police about how two arab brothers sat on their little sister and held her down in the middle of a street while fist-beating her and whipping her in the face with a belt and yelling "sharmutta!!", spitting her in the face and humiliating her so she was shaking in tears. The girl's mother also joined in and started attacking the witnesses with a shoe while yelling "Keleb!! Keleb!!".
What was the girl's "crime"? She was friends with a swedish boy.
Swedish people would only do things like this if they were schizophrenic.

These are a handful out of an almost endless row of personal experiences I have of middle-eastern people using violence and sexual threats to humiliate and dominate. I don't find it hard to believe that things like what happened to Alexandre Robert in Dubai was an isolated event. Humiliation and violence seems to run at the heart of the culture. It's as already said, similar to prison rape in America with humiliation and degradation as an important part. However I also suspect these people take sadist pleasure in hurting others.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

macrobiotic, it is extremely frustrating having a discussion with you, and its not even primarily because you use links in Norwegian to back up your ideas on an English website that is focused on Japan.

No, the primary frustration is that you either can't understand the specific words used in threads, articles and statistics and even by yourself, or else you intentionally change them all at whim to suit your political agenda. Either way you hand us a bunch of crap and I do not appreciate it.

This whole thing started with you invading my thread on gay marriage with an allegation that homosexual rape was practically unknown in Sweden until M.E immigrants came (WAAAAY off topic). To prove this, you switched from Sweden to Norway using a link from a tabloid. But at least at that point you were careful enough to use the term "assault rape" a term not much used or understood by those of us outside Scandinavia. And that is about the only point where I feel you deserve any sort of break, because it may have been us who led you astray on that, (maybe) and have you now saying just "rape", which would include a HELL of a lot more things than the very finite category of "assault rape" (which means a very violent rape using things like knives, strangulation, kicking etc.)

Now you have finally ditched the tabloid and given us a link from a respectable newspaper, so I actually bothered with it this time. And what do I find? The information there is not about homosexual rape! Its about assault rapes both hetero and homo!

How in blue blazes do you think this backs up your contention about homo rape in Norway???

It doesn't. The price of tea in China would be more relevant at this point. You are now attempting to seamlessly vacillate between homo rape and all rape, and also between assault rape and all rape. You also casually paint all Muslim immigrants with the same brush when the article and stats are only about Kurds and Africans.

Now, to the stats and article, even though I am not sure I should bother lest you feel vindicated by me even acknowledging them, unrelated to your original contention as they are. I guess at this point I am just trying to show how inconsistent and random you are. Norway is a country of 5 million people. 1.5 million of them live in the metro area of Oslo. And you give us an article that speaks of only 41 assault rapes in the entire country over 3 years! That is about 13 assault rapes per year in a country of 5, 000,000! And OF COURSE there were hundreds of other rapes in Norway each year, at least.

Yes, the article blames all 41 of those assault rapes on immigrant Kurds and North Africans, this TINY number. And why are they doing this whereas their native Norwegian rapist counterparts are not being accused of committing assault rape but rather other forms of rape? That one I should think is pretty simple: Its because they don't understand the culture or the language nearly as well, so its harder to get compliance from a victim. Next, xenophobia will make the victim less compliant, just on sight of the immigrant rapist. And while there may be more tendency of a Kurdish or African immigrant rapist to use violence in any case, because of other factors dividing up the 13 a year, it hardly proves any of them is more or less dominant in that tiny number.

BTW, the Pakistani immigrant population of Oslo is 3.6 percent. So whatever you say about Muslim immigrants in Scandinavia, make sure your language does not include them or else prove their participation in your accusations.

On top that, make sure you keep the topic straight and stop playing mix and match with words and stats to try to prove your xenophobic and bigoted contentions. You cannot prove anything about homo rape using stats on all rape. You cannot prove anything about all rapes using stats on assault rapes only. You cannot prove anything about Muslim or Middle-easterners using stats on Kurds and North Africans only. You cannot prove criminal and cultural tendencies among a population of thousands based on 13 incidents per year.

In other words, stop being so damned random, especially in your choice of evidence! Stick to the topic and use consistent vocabulary!

Now. Is this topic about homo rape or hetero rape or all rape? Please make up your mind!

 

[Macrobiotic]

I told you from the beginning that there is no official, compiled statistics specifically on homo rape. Let's not only use blind covers against the truth, since there is no official statistics, let's also throw away all common sense and claim the gay rapists might have been 95-year old northern european men in wheelchairs. This is possible, since there aren't any official statistics.

If using common sense however. Homosexual rape is not a cultural phenomenon of ethnic scandinavian culture. It came with the middle-easterners. This everyone here knows. I cannot prove it with statistics and I'm not going to sit down and google every single article about it in blog archives where a lot of immigrant crime is documented.
If this had happened in Japan, say they had LOTS of middle-eastern immigrants and previously unseen crimes started ocurring repeatedly, it wouldn't be controversial to point at the cause, regardless of statistics. Why is it controversial to blame those who actually are behind these crimes now that they happen in Sweden? Is it because swedish people are of the wrong race or something and therefore must be punished? We aren't allowed to protect ourselves against rape for some reason? This at least is the view of the european governments.

Let's do like this. Let's pretend middle easterners are innocent of being the perpetrators in just about all gay rape cases until statistics show they are.
There will never be official statistics on this because if there was, it would damage the multicultural "paradise". So, they can go on raping forever since the problem will never be pinpointed out of fear of racism and as a result there can't be any countermeasures taken to prevent it either.

I have seen you speculate widely and freely and dissect japanese people mentally and collectively in other threads based on your own observations and opinions.
I have my own observations about for example exile-iranians (those who moved from Iran) as the "bisexual manwhores of the middle east". Is this generalization any less valid than your generalizations about japanese mentality, psychology and culture?
In fact, I have also studied some middle eastern history and I know that kurds and persians highly favored boy slaves sold for sex. I think they even have a word for "buttplug" in their languages since thousands of years because they actually used something to stretch the anus of these boys. This is persian and kurdish culture and it's a clear pre-islamic homoerotic element.
What makes me any less qualified than you to analyze based on both direct observation and experiences as well as historical and cultural study? Your only "proof" when discussing japanese culture is your own experiences and your own opinion and reasoning. Which is exactly how I come to the conclusion that middle-easterners indeed have ancient homo-erotic elements in their cultures which reflect in their attitude towards other races in nations they migrate to.

Have you ever had someone smelling like a mix of indian spices, raw garlic and old unwashed sweat come up to you in a night club and whisper "I want to **** you"? It happened to me a couple of times and it happens to other people in Sweden and the ones who approach men like this are not your typical homosexual man but rather kurds or persians who had a few drinks and start living out their "true" personality.

And don't tell me you don't have a liberal, left leaning agenda yourself which you try to make the universal truth in every discussion.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I told you from the beginning that there is no official, compiled statistics specificaly on homo rape.

This hardly excuses the long, long list of randomness and inconsistency I accused you of.

And I did not ask you for statistics. I asked you for PROOF. You gave us poorly chosen almost totally unrelated stats all on your own.

I may accept your personal experiences as proof. But proof of what?? All the victims are female! That cannot be proof of homo rape!

Man, if you are in Sweden right now,those short, short days may seriously be getting to you. You are all over the place!

 

[Macrobiotic]

Do you believe ethnic swedish men are likely to gay rape other men?

Use common sense. I have been around middle easterners since I was 10 years old since this country is flooded with them. I have seen and heard and read things which suggests they are more likely to commit homosexual rape. I have read about how police officers commit homosexual rape in the arab world. In Assad's Syria today boys are systematically targeted and raped by security forces. This is what leaks out of Syria.

Have you seen the original Lawrence of Arabia or read about when he was in turkish captivity? He was raped. It happened to basically all men, especially more faire skinned men, in turkish captivity over hundreds of years. This is well documented. You ridicule the atrocities commited against greeks, serbs, romanians, hungarians etc over the centuries since "there's no proof". What proof? Proof that will hold up in a modern day court? I say it's enough with historic chronicles and analyzes otherwise it's possible to argue anything. Use common sense. Middle eastern culture has strong homo erotic tendencies. History and modern culture points to that.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Do you believe ethnic swedish men are likely to gay rape other men?

No more and no less than any other men from any other country basically. With zero proof that is where one begins.

Any difference in likelihood is going to be small though, like your 13 assault rapes a year among thousands of people, and easily explained by a host of factors outside of just being ethnic anything, such as being an immigrant, including being an ethnic Swede immigrant in a foreign culture in a foreign land with language difficulties.

Everything you have thrown at us to prove otherwise is so paper thin it points to paranoia and xenophobia, and now I suppose we could add nationalism and racial/ cultural pride to the list.

I don't deny there may be differences caused by some cultural variables. But you are inflating them beyond need or reason. You are fear mongering. You are spreading bigotry.

 

[Macrobiotic]

I don't see what's wrong with ethnopluralistic nationalism where different cultures truly enrich each other rather than mixing on a grand scale and diluting each other.

I surely would have had no interest what so ever in Japan and probably never have started studying japanese had Japan been a true multicultural nation with a quarter of the total population being immigrants. What makes Asia, and Japan in particular, rewarding to learn from is the fact that those cultures are not diluted to the degree of western culture. The ideal world would have every culture on an equal standing, trading and studying each other rather than raping and stealing from each other.
Of course, there are also westerners who made Japan their little "wh0rehouse" (bedroom way to a visa first, work secondly etc. These people/men aren't just rare, they are quite numerous.) and don't see the hypocrisy in preaching multiculturalism and open borders while at the same time having been drawn to a foreign country because of the country's unique ethnic character traits.

I surely cannot accept the idea that only certain cultures are allowed ethnic integrity.

Note though, I don't say people of different ethnicity shoudn't mix, I'm saying massimmigration must cease.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

What makes Asia, and Japan in particular, rewarding to learn from is the fact that those cultures are not diluted to the degree of western culture.

Okay. Multiple repeated complaints about your random wild digressions and you just don't learn. What the hell is your problem?

Can we safely assume that your bashing of immigrants with the gay rape allegation was in fact a red herring to try and promote racial and ethnic purity??

And I got some really bad news for you, but Japan is the most racially and culturally mixed society in East Asia. Culturally a mix of native Japanese, Chinese, Korean and more recently, American culture. Racially, the interbreeding with the Ainu has resulted in the Japanese being significantly more hairy than other East Asians.

The far end of purity is stagnation and retardation. The further away you get from purity, the better off a people are genetically and culturally, with the only potential qualifier of the stupidity of the insistence on purity causing stress which people have to rise up and overcome, a sort of survival of the fittest contest, much like instigated by the Nazis.

Your absolute refusal to be consistent or make sense in your speeches is certainly reminding me of one famous Nazi in particular. I hope to high Heaven you don't think that was a compliment!

Note though, I don't say people of different ethnicity shoudn't mix, I'm saying massimmigration must cease.

There I tend to agree. Too much too fast is not a good thing, and people that refuse to integrate even one little bit from the first generation of being native born should just get up and go back where they came from.

Chinatowns and such are basically okay, but when people born in a country cannot speak the national language, and they get all racist and nationalist about who their kids marry, those people need to leave.

 

[Macrobiotic]

I'm not talking about strict racial purity. I'm talking about common sense. Swedish people are a mix between at least four different nordic races as well as laps, finnish, german, mediterranean etc genetically and historically. So no, it's not "racially pure" even before the arabs poured in. This is not the sort of thing I'm talking about.

I have read many articles in japanese by japanese about the japanization of american, european and chinese culture for example and how it's not the same as just pouring in a lot of arabs and letting them do whatever they want. You can't fool me that Japan is similar to Europe in terms of irresponsible multiculturalism.

Also most importantly, Japan does not accept refugees from for example Somalia and Syria. This is a huge difference. These refugees are thrashing Sweden.

As for the middle easterners. I just don't like their behaviour, and the hypocrite gaybashing/male-on-male sex-combo is part of what annoys me. Take Syria for example, as we speak boys are systematically raped by Al Assads forces. Why do they even perform this sodomy on a grand political scale if they are so conservative, faithful and loathing of gay rights and same sex relationships? This is what led to this thread anyway. They have a taboo homoerotic culture and they persecute gays at the same time.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

These people/men aren't just rare, they are quite numerous.) and don't see the hypocrisy in preaching multiculturalism and open borders while at the same time having been drawn to a foreign country because of the country's unique ethnic character traits.

What the hell? Just because a man may move to non-multicultural country does not not mean he has rejected multiculturalism!

There are many things I enjoy about Japan, but its points of insularity I do not. Not to say Japan is totally insular now or ever has been. But where they are I tend to disagree.

For example, they decided to attempt a sort of insular multiculturalism by opening the door to Japanese descended Brazilians (blood and DNA) rather than open the door to people based on their individual merit. It did not work out too well. Just another fine example of how racial and ethnic purists are dumb.

---------- Post added at 16:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

I have read many articles in japanese by japanese about the japanization of american, european and chinese culture for example and how it's not the same as just pouring in a lot arabs and letting them do whatever they want. You can't fool me that Japan is similar to Europe in terms of irresponsible multiculturalism.

Well I cannot deny that Europe foolishly opened a floodgate of ill-advised immigration with a sort of starry-eyed hippie zeal.

I wish you would focus more on that being the problem than all this stuff about Muslims and gay rape. Its just that the M.E. and North Africa are culturally very different from Europeans and you cannot absorb hoards of them overnight and expect a smooth transition.

Also most importantly, Japan does not accept refugees from for example Somalia and Syria. This is a huge difference. These refugees are thrashing Sweden.

Well I don't know about Sweden getting thrashed. But I do agree that refugee policies need adjustment. Refugees should be accepted only if said refugees agree to certain terms and obligations. And I don't mean things that could get them arrested. I mean just swearing them to certain oaths, such as to uphold principles of church and state, to attempt to integrate, to accept that the country granting them refuge can and is doing so because said country embraces principles their home country does not, and to never attempt to deny their children from integrating or inter-marrying.

On many points, if people just cannot accept the backwardness of their own culture and country that led to their own refugee status, they should simply stay home.

I consider myself a sort of refugee from America!

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

As for the middle easterners. I just don't like their behaviour, and the hypocrite gaybashing/male-on-male sex-combo is part of what annoys me.

As well it should, if it exists, to the degree you seem to want us to believe it exists. You have definitely not proved your case in my mind.

Mostly what I see is such backwardness on the subject that its less like any sort of intentional hypocrisy and more a jumbled mess of poorly constructed conceptualizations the matter. Of course that means conflicts and hypocrisy too, but its much more than that. Its like their heart and mind are not in the debate about these things at all, because their mind was already made up for them by their holy book. But rigid adherence to their holy book would lead to widespread injustice and contempt of the book and ultimately to chaos. So thought and reality don't quite match, but there is no heart to fix it.

But you have not proven your case very well and you have exaggerated so many things. Using words like "exterminate" for example.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:28 ----------

If you want some M.E. and North African hypocrisy, one that strikes me is the insistence that girls be virgins until married (and I have heard very, very harsh opinions from them on this) yet men don't need to be virgins.

One has to be very very whacked out of his own skull to not see what will be the real world results of such a conflicted policy, and yeah, one of them may well be more frequent cases of male homosexual activity (including rape) since women have more sexual restrictions placed on them and men are freer.