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Origin Of Japanese Language

Hello, Where've you been?

Welcome back, Canadian Kor!
canadian_kor said:
whether Japanese is categorically in the Altaic language family (just like Korean is tentatively categorized as Altaic).
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I understand that the sub-Altaic theories are under constant re-examination, and hope that we at the forum can examine the details of each piece of reasoning employed in the pros and cons of each camp.
canadian_kor said:
a genetic relationship between Japanese-Korean and the larger Altaic language group.
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It is a widely assumed theory which I think has some substance, and the degree of accuracy of which will become more obvious by accumulating study. Yet again we need to examine the details to get any closer to the anthropological / historical / linguistic truth behind it.
canadian_kor said:
the...characteristics of Japanese and Koreans...they more or less belong to the Northern Asiatic group (much more so than the Han Chinese and South-East Asians).
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The notion of Northern Asiatic group needs to be more clearly defined, and in fact I believe we are in the process of finding out how we can define it in a way that is acceptable to everyone with a nonpolitical agenda. Apart from the fact that the various DNA analyses trying to establish a family tree of ethnic groups of the world / Asia are based on unacceptably small samples for much statistical validity (less than 2,000 from each group), it also must be noted that it is logically more sound to put down all presupositions regarding ethnic relationships again to maintain objectivity.

Blood relationships, cultural (meaning historical contact) relationships, and linguistic relaionships are ideally independent understandings that might or might not coincide with one another. Yet hypothesizing gives a perspective to the studies, and makes the discussion more exciting; or else why bother? So I think your bold ideas also play a key role as our discussion unfolds and evolves towards the ultimate linguistic picture if such a thing is possible. Let's keep talking.
 
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errata: Min "Dialect"

lexico said:
A more extreme case of remote linguistic relationship would be the Min languages of Fujian and Taiwan, which still carry the most divervent linguistic features among the languages spoken in PRC. See Jerry Norman for more on the Min "Dialect."
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Min "Dialect" should be properly written Min "Dialects" or simply Min languages.
 

Lexico,

I've never been to Russia, but I just had to ask this. I'm sure you've met some people of Northern Siberian tribes (e.g., Mongols, Tungus, Evenk, Chukchi, Nenets, etc.). Just wondering, can you tell the difference between Koreans and these northern mongoloid people just by looking at their facial structures? Chinese people say that Koreans look basically the same as other Northern Mongoloid groups, but I disagree. Koreans tend to have more "delicate" facial features than their more rugged-looking Northern counterparts (though I have seen some Koreans with extremely mongoloid features - probably a residue from the Mongol and Tungus invasions in the middle ages). I would appreciate your response to this.
 
I ve been to Harbin,Dailian(North-eastern China) and Wonsan(North Korean city when I visited Kumkang Mt )

I cannot distinguish each person's nationality(between northern Chinese and Koreans) by simply looking at his/her face without cheking fashion,speaking.

I do not agree that Koreans have more delicate facial feature compared to other Northern Mongoloid group to be honest.
My personal perspective is that Koreans usually have wide flat face,looking agressively,willfully and intense-eyed.
 
canadian_kor said:
can you tell the difference between Koreans and these northern mongoloid people just by looking at their facial structures? Chinese people say that Koreans look basically the same as other Northern Mongoloid groups, but I disagree.
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I don't live in Russia, and I have never met a person who said belonged to a Norther Siberian Tribe that you listed. All that I can say is that the Beijingers that I've seen are hardly distinguishable from the Koreans that I've known with one exception. The thicker double-folded upper eye-lids which are found more often in Koreans were quite rare in Beijingers. This thickened fatty tissue is supposed to be the trace of a group of homo sapiens sapiens trapped in the upper Siberian plains by the glaciers and adapting (evolving) to the harsh, cold weather for an extended period. So some postulate that there was a strong Southern influence or intermarriage with the Southerners to explain this difference in the Northern Chinese which includes Beijingers.

I don't know what you mean exactly by "Mongoloid," "delicate," "rugged," or "extremely Mongoloid feature." Just as the DNA sample analyses do not tell us much scientifically acceptable facts, the comparison of facial features sounds a little dangerous to me. It is not an inherent defect of any sort, but that the impressionistic classification deserves much imporvement to be of much use for us. The phenotypes are expressions of the genotypes; these have to be defined, measured statistically, and analyzed for interpretation in order to be useful. Unfortunately we know so little about these things.
 
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stupidumboy said:
I do not agree that Koreans have more delicate facial feature compared to other Northern Mongoloid group to be honest.
My personal perspective is that Koreans usually have wide flat face,looking agressively,willfully and intense-eyed.
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Then you haven't seen many Koreans then. I find that the more Mongolian looking one are more temperamental.
 
At least,I have seen many more Koreans than you.
Actually many koreans have mongolian physical feature.
Therefore I do not agree your finding.

To be honest,its often said that Koreans and Mongolians cannot be distinguished by looking at physical features, its often said here by scholars and medias.

I am very wondering if you really have lived in Canada for a long time.
That country is very multicultural and I heard even very sensitive remark that might to be seen as racial insult towards specific group should be carefully spoken out there.
What do you mean by comparing "delicate" "rugged" lookings?


You once posted a sensitive eye brow thread between Koreans and SE Asians(discrimination by economic standard?) and you posted your comments that look down Chinese. (you once told you will never stand out living in other majority Chinese living countries) ,I am very wondering with what intention you posted such comments.

Whats your intention? judge which side is superior by looking at the general physical feature?
I really hope you do not have "Korean superiority notion" even while you are living in Canada and the reality is going very differently.

Sorry If I misunderstood your intention.
 

Lived in Canada almost my whole life. None of those threads I started was meant to be racist or promote "Korean superiority" nonsense (in fact, I can't stand the whole "KOreAn PRiDe" crap). I apologize to you or anyone if it seemed offensive. I have friends from various backgrounds - Chinese, Japanese, Indian, white, black, you name it. I just think you misunderstood me (not blaming you or anything).
 


OK, I apologized to you sincerely because your intention was different.
 
NOrthern Chinese-through the course of history over the past 2000 years-have merged and assimilated a lot of Tungusic and Hun peoples; Toba, Khitan, Turk, Manchu, Mongol. It is not surprising at all that they display very close features to the Korean, both in terms of physical attributes and temperament.
 
안녕하세요!!!

난 브라질사람 이에요. 나도 일본삼세 에요. 한국을 좋아해.

Well I'm 23 years old I'm studying Korean, I'm japanese yonsei generation, although I think Korean culture is much more interesting than japanese. Today we went to the Korean Tea House here in Bom Retiro, São Paulo. If you ask me off course I would say Korean language is much more interesting than Japanese language instead of they are the same family, and I can see a lot of familiarity between the both languages. But I really prefer Korean because it's more sounds that Japanese don't have, and because of hangeul alphabet that is much more interesting than Japanese one. Instead of Korean food is much more variety than japanese, what rich culture you have I love you !!!!!

한국이 사랑해요 !!!!
 
Sorry for the late reply, nyusen.
방가방가 ~

Your Korean is pretty good.
I think for a lot of people, their "own" language (or ancestral language that runs in the family when you've emigrated) can be interesting than their first language. And the opposite can be the case when they've learned enough of it to be fluent; a different language that is somewhat related can be quite stimulating language to learn.
I also like Japanese perhaps for the same reason.
There are more local elements in comparison to Chinese loans -- a lot more -- which make it so interesting and unique.

한국말도 재미있고요, 일본말도 재미있지요 !
Hope to talk more, nyusen !
 
Koreans and Japanese are more similar to each other than what both nationalities are willing to admit. We both share the same father and mother in the cold areas of Russia.
 
DNA Evidence

A recent DNA study and video history program shown on either Discovery or History Channel, showed a woman who was researching the dispersion of the female Amazon warriors, from the areas of Greece and present day Turkey, all the way to the Mongolian hill country.

The DNA in a grave of Northern Black Sea area, and the DNA of a blonde-haired child in Mongolia was virtually identical, indicating that there was the presence of this identical DNA from the Mediterranean to the Asian countries.

But why am I so surprised?

The Egyptian naming conventions of Japan which I have found, and the Western features of many, many Japanese people, and the identical facial features I have seen in Irish people, i.e., the Celts, silky black hair, etc., we are all virtually identical.

Most persons reading this I am sure are un-impressed... it is the only logical answer... we are all related, all the world over.
 
In furtherance of my above post, I offer a "classic-universal-Celtic" look, which I believe had influences in both Ireland and Japan.

I hope my opinions do not offend anyone, but I consider the classic-universal good looks of Lindsay Lohan to be as close to the "Irish-Celtic" "Look", of which I have seen thousands of Japanese beautiful women look like (and handsome men, I have to say), ... what I am now calling "Japanese-Celtic".

There are 6 billion people on this earth, am I the only one to offer the theory that Lindsay Lohan must have Japanese cousins?

420 Money Bomb

http://www.stagestars.net/lindsaylohan/

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Lindsey+Lohan

I only offer these thoughts with the most honorable intentions, to show the universal brotherhood and sisterhood of humanity.

Ed Ziomek, Stamford, Connecticut
 
nyusen said:
Instead of Korean food is much more variety than japanese, what rich culture you have I love you !!!!!
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Really ? That was not my impression when I went to Korea. But how many of these Japanese dishes have you atcually tried ?
 
That book is full of bull****


This list is utterly meaningless. It bears no scientific significance.

From which Korean dialect did you select the form /ocim/ ("ojim")? The Standard Modern Korean form is /ocum/, while in Late Middle Korean documents composed in Hangeul, the word was spelled as /ocom/. The Standard Modern Korean form /ocum/ reflects a general shift from /o/ > /u/ in non-initial syllables. As for the Modern Japanese word /oSikko/, it is clearly derived from the basic Japanese root */sii/ or */sit(o)/ meaning "urine; spray; moisture" through the affixation of the diminutive suffix /-(k)ko/ and the honorific prefix */opo-(mi-)/ > */oFo(N)-/ > */oo(N)-/ > /oN-/ ~ /o-/. Maybe you need to be reminded that the undecorated, bare stem /Sii/ is still used in Modern Japanese as a nursery word for "urine," like English "pee(pee)." I could just as easily compare Korean /ocum/ (urine) to Ainu /osoma/ (feces) or /okuyma/ (urine), although I don't think any of these comparisons would stand up to scrutiny.

As for Modern Korean /uj/ (generally romanized as "wi" or "uy"), this form is widely known to derive from a case-marked form of the Late Middle Korean word /uh/ (up, top, above). In North Korea, the standard form of this word is actually the more "historically accurate" or "regular" Modern Korean reflex, /u/. Many Modern Korean dialects retain traces of the consonant that was reflected as /h/ in Late Middle Korean /uh/, and thus such dialects have dative/locative case-marked forms such as /uk-e/ (up, upward, above, over). Ancient Japanese documents indicate that some toponyms of Kaya/Kara/Karak, that ill-fated confederation of clans or polities that existed somewhere in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula in antiquity, were recorded beginning with the Chinese character ﾂ湘｣ meaning "up, top, above; raise, rise" and the corresponding syllables were transcribed phonetically with Chinese characters that should be read as */okosi-/ according to the rules of transcription of Old Japanese using Chinese characters. This putative Old Kayan form */okosi-/ is probably cognate with Proto-Korean */uh-s/ > Late Middle Korean /us-/ > Modern Korean /us-/, which means "upper" and is a fossilized prefix for Korean nouns, as in /us-ni/ ([un.ni], "upper teeth"). Needless to say, it is difficult to directly relate the Korean root /uh/ ~ /uk-/ to Old Japanese */upe/ ~ */upa-/ > Modern Japanese /ue/ ~ /uwa-/ (up, top, above).

I have never heard of a Korean dialect in which there exists a verb stem /obu-/ meaning "to carry (a person) on one's back." Standard Korean does, of course, have a verb */ep-/ > /@p-/ meaning "to put (a baby, etc.) on one's back (in order to carry him)," and this verb is strikingly similar in form to Standard Japanese */op-/ > /o-/, which also has exactly the same semantics. However, Modern Eastern Japanese dialects have forms like /obu-/, which are difficult to relate regularly to Standard Japanese */op-/ > /o-/, let alone Korean /@p-/. Again, I must point out that even Ainu has the form /ampa/ (to carry), so the superficial similarity between Standard Korean /@p-/, Standard Japanese */op-/ > /o-/, and Modern Eastern Japanese dialectal /obu-/ cannot be said to be indicative of a particularly close relationship between the Korean and the Japanese languages.

The similarity between Late Middle Korean /symyj-/ > Modern Korean /symi-/ ("seumi-da") and Modern Japanese /Simi-/ (to soak in, to soak through, to permeate) is striking at first glance, but the importance of this surface resemblance seems to fade when one looks around at the other languages of East Asia and finds that a root of a phonological form like */sim-/ and bearing semantics similar or identical to Korean /symi-/ or Japanese /Simi-/ is present in almost all Asian languages, even Chinese.

In any case, I think that book that you have been referencing is trash, and I hope you now realize that the author of that book has made no progress whatsoever in elucidating any potential relationship between the Korean and the Japanese languages.
 
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I have to say that I myself have also noticed the eerie Japanese-ness (or almost Korean-ness, minus the thick epicanthic folds and small eyes) of Lindsay Lohan's features, but I do not believe it is due to any close genetic relationship between the Japanese and Irish (or Korean) peoples. Frankly, I think Lindsay Lohan's face looks more stereotypically East Asian or "Mongoloid" than the average Japanese person's does.

Both the Japanese and the Irish appear to be major genetic isolates, and the Japanese may even have managed to preserve their independently developed and unique language, while it appears that the original language of most of the ancestors of the Irish people may have been lost irrevocably upon the shift to a dialect of the Indo-European derived Celtic language of antiquity.

The genetic isolation of (the majority of) the ancestors of the Irish and the Japanese peoples on their respective islands may have caused those peoples to preserve certain features that were generally lost during the recent evolutionary history of neighboring continental peoples, so that the Irish are basically European but often possess some somewhat Mongoloid features, and the Japanese are basically Asian but often possess some features that are more typical of Caucasoids. We have to remember that the ancestors of people all over the face of the earth probably all looked pretty similar to one another, with a sort of robust African or rather Australian aborigine-like appearance, until as recently as the last Ice Age. Most of the stereotypical features that are used to identify an individual as belonging to a particular "race" of modern mankind have probably become stereotypical of people from a particular region of the globe only in the Holocene Era.
 
I've lived in Korea and Japan, and can speak both languages, but have I ever thought that these two langauges have any relations. Sure there are a number of words that are extremely similar, but they have all derived from Chinese pronunciations, like Shigan(Korean) and Jikan(Japanese).

I do think Korean food is way more diverse than Japanese. Japanese foods are way too sweet, using the same soy sauch+sugare basis. But then again, Gatsu-don, Gyu-don and sushi, and some other japanese dishes are pretty good.
 
The Japanese system is not clear, and the elucidated aim is not in sight. There are some theory hypotheses, but does not come to yet get the general will.

The opinion which assumed that Japanese belonged to Altai languages attracted attention in particular from the Meiji era.
As the grounds, "r" sound does not rise in the prefix in ancient Japanese. And that a kind of vowel harmony is watched is given.
But each language in itself said to belong to Altai languages , each other's kinsmanship are not proved.
Therefore, as for the characteristic of Altai languages being examined in ancient Japanese, Japanese does not have the above-mentioned meaning to be a language of "the Altai model" as a type.

As for the Japanese, a phoneme system of the Austronesian and resemblance about the vocabulary are pointed out.
However, word examples are not enough. This theory hypothesis includes a lot of examples of an estimate / the ambiguity.
The relevance is unidentified.

There is the opinion insisting on Japanese and relations with the Dravidian group. However, there are few researchers in acknowledgment of this.

As for relations with the individual language, classic Chinese had strong influence in Japanese notation and vocabulary through a kanji.
Japan belongs to the kanji Kulturkreis led by China.
However, the core vocabulary does not support. In addition, the Japanese is agglutinative language whereas Chinese is isolating language as for the characteristic of the grammatical phoneme.
The systematic relevance is not recognized in this way to be totally different from Chinese.

As for the Japanese and the Korean, grammar has many similarities. However, a core vocabulary differs greatly.
With the aspect of the phoneme, "r" sound does not rise in the prefix in a peculiar word. A kind of vowel harmony is watched. There are Altai languages and a common similarity.
However, there are a closed syllable and a double consonant (in the case of Middle Korean), and there is the big difference, too.
It is said to be the similar vocabulary in numerals Japanese and the Kokuryo languagethat that is the dead language of the Korean Peninsura. However, most of the actual situation of the Kokuryo language does not understand it and do not become judgment materials in the system theory at present.

Though I do not know it whether that Kokuryo is a Korean country is a Chinese country.
 
A study of the DNA type of the Y chromosome progressed rapidly from the latter half of 1990's, and it was demonstrated that many systems mingled to a Japanese by molecular biology.
Judging from the distribution of the Y chromosome, the Japanese mother's body is the language that the Jomon people of the D2 system spoke.

D2 becomes extinct in the Eurasian Continent, and it is thought that there is not the language of the same tribe. However, there is the D1, D3 system which is closely related with D2 in Tibet.

The people in the Yayoi Period are the O2b systems which were a leading figure of the Yangtze River civilization. The people in the Yayoi Period spoke a language of the Austroasiatic languages group, but it is estimated that the people in the Yayoi Period abandon the language and received Japanese.
Unlike the conventional assumption, a hereditary connection is not thought to be the ethnic group using Austronesian from the distribution of the Y chromosome.

However, there is a M7a group seen in only a Japanese in the world when I pay attention to Haplotype of the mitochondria which are hereditary only on the mother's side.
This occurs in the vicinity of Taiwan and does the characteristic distribution that Okinawa / Ainu (the blood of Jomon people is thick) has much. Of course the blood of Jomon people is inherited to the Japanese of the majority. Relations with Austronesiatic languages are suggested if I suppose M7a to be an original Japanese.

The Japanese has a D2 system when I look genetically. This is a characteristic examined only by a Japanese.
Japan and Korea are different at all in the language and the gene.
 
I was looking into pre-modern Japanese when I stumbled across this forum. I'm not very good at Korean or Japanese (even though I grew up in Korea, and have been studying Japanese since middle school, albeit alone) but I always thought it was fun that Japanese was so easy to learn as a Korean speaker because so many of the words sounded similar (thanks, China). Some of the stuff that stuck out to me was the basic particles. They didn't always mean the same thing, but some of them sounded identical. Like

は(Japanese for 은/는) and 와(Same sound, but in Japanese the equivalent meaning would be particle と)
と(Japanese for 와/과[gwa]) and 또(Same sound, but in Japanese the equivalent meaning would be また, as in また忘れたか?)
が and 가[ga] (although this changes to 이 in Korean when it's after a syllable ending in a consonant, but since Japanese mostly ends in vowels...)
へ and 에[e] (They're used similarly too. どこへ行くの?/어디에 가냐?)

It's too bad the two countries seem to consider each other with such repulsion. With a little cooperation, a lot of mysteries could be solved. It may also be interesting to see how the two languages might've evolved if there was no Chinese interference. So many words are from China that it's hard to tell which words are actually native and which are loanwords.
 

most modern chinese words are japan made.
 
caster51 said:
most modern chinese words are japan made.
Click to expand...


interesting !

do you know the official Japanese website has complete listing of 和製漢字




There is no mystery,Korean & Japanese are 2 unintelligible languages.Otherwise,how do you explain there are many Koreans studying with the Chinese in the Japanese language centers across Japan

I think nearly all Chinese loanwords are identifiable in the Japanese & Korean standard reference dictionaries.
 
do you know the official Japanese website has complete listing of ﾋ彗ﾂ青ｻﾅ?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡
Click to expand...

asking the Chinese is better
窶懌?凪?ｰﾃ､窶?窶愬ｾ窶ｰﾃ､们窶廃ﾋ?闇ｽvﾂ考ﾂ、窶ｰ窶ｰ说ﾂ、ﾅｽﾃ環催ｬ窶廬ﾅ?T窶抂窶吮??ﾂ，窶猫70ﾂ≫?慊青･窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人ﾂ焦?营窶伉｢时ﾂ，窶ｰﾃ､ﾂ就寻ﾅｽv窶ｹN这样窶廬问题ﾂ：这ﾋ?ｪﾅｽ窶?#23454;100窶扼窶藩?#23545;窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉人窶廬ﾅｽv维产ﾂ青ｶ窶板ｹﾅ独?#26679;窶廬窶ｰe响ﾂ？换窶ｹﾃ･话说ﾂ，ﾋ愿ｯ设窶懌?督鞘?ｰ窶砺窶猫窶愿ｺ窶怒这样ﾋ?ｪﾋ慊｢窶ｹﾃ?#37051;ﾂ，窶愿溪?禿ｧ许ﾂ催敘徒长时ﾅ?ﾃｺ窶愿?ﾂ，ﾂ人们窶佚ｼ窶拿ﾅｽg窶廃严译ﾅ?T窶抂ﾂ，ﾅｽﾂｧ窶凖?#36807;严译ﾅ?T窶抂窶藩??板昶?ｰﾃｰﾂ青ｼ窶｢ﾃｻﾅｽv窶?ﾋ彗ﾅｽvﾂ考窶吮??ﾂ坂??#38382;题ﾂ，窶膿窶凖?#36807;窶愿ｺ译ﾅ?T窶抂ﾂ青･窶敕帚?猫ﾂ債ｷ异ﾂ？窶伉ｦ窶｢ﾃ問?砺窶猫窶愿ｺ译ﾅ?T窶抂窶廬输窶愿ｼﾂ，严译窶禿ｧ许ﾋ慊ｹ窶ｰﾃｯ窶敕ｭ窶懌?倪?伉ｿﾂ，窶ｰﾃｯ窶猫ﾂ人ﾂ重ﾂ新为窶愿淞債ｱﾂ青ｼ窶｢ﾂｶﾅ?T窶抂窶｢ﾂｨﾂ色ﾂ更ﾂ坂?｡适窶廬译语ﾂ，窶僊这窶膿窶ｰﾃ､们ﾂ債｡窶弖ﾅｽg窶廃窶廬窶愿ｺ窶怒译语ﾂ肯窶凖ｨ绝窶佚･窶伉ｽﾂ絶?昶?徭窶ｰﾃｯ窶｢s窶慊ｯﾂ，ﾅｽﾂｧ窶戞窶ｰﾃ環青･这样ﾂ，这100窶扼窶藩??吮??ﾂ坂?伉人ﾅｽvﾂ考ﾋ彗谈论问题窶廬窶｢ﾃｻﾅｽﾂｮﾂ青･窶敕帚?禿ｧ窶ｰﾃｯ窶｢s窶慊ｯﾂ？ﾂ催?#32456;ﾂ，这100窶扼窶藩??吮??ﾂ坂?倪?廬历ﾅｽj进窶凖ｶﾂ青･窶敕帚?ｰﾃｯ窶膿窶ｺﾃ溪?猫窶廬ﾅ?ﾂｮ窶牢ﾋ?ｪ 窶ｹﾃｯ窶佚娯?冢说ﾂ，窶懌?督"ﾂ青ｭﾅｽﾂ｡ﾂ"ﾂ。ﾂ"经济ﾂ"ﾂ、ﾂ"窶｢ﾂｶ窶ｰﾂｻﾂ"ﾂ、ﾂ"ﾅ?v窶督ｽﾂ"ﾂ、ﾂ"阶级ﾂ"ﾂ、ﾂ"ﾅｽﾃ絶?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ･义ﾂ"ﾂ、ﾂ"资窶怒ﾅｽﾃ･义ﾂ"这ﾂ債ｱﾅ?T窶抂换ﾋ?ｪ种窶｢ﾃｻﾅｽﾂｮﾂ出现ﾂ催昶?ｰﾃ､们ﾅ?ﾃ｡窶楼ﾂ，窶ｰﾃ､们对这ﾂ債ｱ问题窶廬ﾅ?'ﾅｽﾃｳﾂ、窶板昶?ｰﾃｰﾂ，ﾂ青･窶敕帚?ｰﾃｯﾂ青鞘?吮?ｦ变窶ｰﾂｻﾂ？

http://www.zhaojun.com/youci/riyu.htm
 
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