Onomatopoeia?

[nemesae]

I'm currently translating an interview but constantly stumbling over this sentence:

今はすっかり大きくなり……って言ってもそもそも小さいんですけど（笑）。

I understand most of the sentence, but the mosomoso is confusing. I think it's onomatopoeia but I'm not sure. For people interested in the context:

犬の話も楽しかったです。
『視覚』のなかですでに犬好きが発覚してますけど(笑)。
あの犬は今も元気にしてますよ。
今はすっかり大きくなり……って言ってもそもそも小さいんですけど（笑）。
犬好きは相変わらずです。

(yes, it's an article about someone talking about dogs)

 

[bentenmusume]

I'm currently translating an interview but constantly stumbling over this sentence:

今はすっかり大きくなり……って言ってもそもそも小さいんですけど（笑）。

I understand most of the sentence, but the mosomoso is confusing. I think it's onomatopoeia but I'm not sure. For people interested in the context:

I think you're not breaking up the words correctly. That's not 「もそもそ」 but rather 「そもそも」. The first 「も」 is part of 「言っても」.

Does that help you figure it out at all?

 

[hebiichigo]

そもそも means "in the first place", "to begin with" etc.
I'm not sure if it's onomatopoeia though.

To me the sentence is something like, "I might say the dog is quite large now, but it was small to start off with."

 

[nemesae]

I think you're not breaking up the words correctly. That's not 「もそもそ」 but rather 「そもそも」. The first 「も」 is part of 「言っても」.

Does that help you figure it out at all?

No really =_= what form is 言っても? Something like 'saying (is) also' ?

そもそも means "in the first place", "to begin with" etc.
I'm not sure if it's onomatopoeia though.

To me the sentence is something like, "I might say the dog is quite large now, but it was small to start off with."

Makes more sense.. but it's strange I couldn't find the word in any online dictionary and when I typed it in in google in hiragana there came a lot of dog and cat pictures, which is why I thought it to be onomatopoeia. Could you explain how you got to 'in de first place', 'to begin with'?
It's a Shinya interview, by the way, if you're wondering why on earth I'd be translating an interview about dogs ^_~

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

私は英語で説明できないので、日本語で解説したいと思います。

「そもそも」は国語辞典によると、「そも」を重ねた語。
「そも」は代名詞「そ（其）」に係助詞「も」の付いたもの〕前に述べたことを受けて次のことを説き起こすとき用いる語
擬声語ではないですね。
の検索結果 - goo国語辞書
今はすっかり大きくなり……って言ってもそもそも小さ いんですけど（笑）。
＝「今はすっかり大きくなった」と言っても、犬を飼い始めたころから小さかったので
いまでもたいして大きくないです。

小さいんです けど
「けど」＝「けれども」形容詞活用の已然形語尾「けれ」に接続助詞「ども」が付いたものから
活用語の終止形に接続する。
(1)ある事柄に、それと逆の、または関係のうすい事柄を結びつける。
(2)前置きを本題に結びつける。
(3)二つの事柄を単に結びつける。
の意味 - goo国語辞書

 

[Elizabeth]

No really =_= what form is 言っても? Something like 'saying (is) also' ?



Makes more sense.. but it's strange I couldn't find the word in any online dictionary and when I typed it in in google in hiragana there came a lot of dog and cat pictures, which is why I thought it to be onomatopoeia. Could you explain how you got to 'in de first place', 'to begin with'?
It's a Shinya interview, by the way, if you're wondering why on earth I'd be translating an interview about dogs ^_~

Are you sure the "tte itte mo" is transcribed correctly ?....somehow it looks strange to me there.

 

[nemesae]

Are you sure the "tte itte mo" is transcribed correctly ?....somehow it looks strange to me there.

Hmm, yes, it's transcribed okay, I doublechecked. But the tte is a different form of to (as in 'to iu'), if you were confused about that

*starts translating Hiroyuki's explanation*

 

[Elizabeth]

Hmm, yes, it's transcribed okay, I doublechecked. But the tte is a different form of to (as in 'to iu'), if you were confused about that

Yes sure, it's a conversational form of the quotative "to iu." It isn't really addressed directly in the explanation though....

 

[nemesae]

私は英語で説明できないので、日本語で解説したいと思います。

「そもそも」は国語辞典によると、「そも」を重ねた語。
「そも」は代名詞「そ（其）」に係助詞「も」の付いたもの〕前に述べたことを受けて次のことを説き起こすとき用いる語
擬声語ではないですね。
の検索結果 - goo国語辞書
今はすっかり大きくなり……って言ってもそもそも小さ いんですけど（笑）。
＝「今はすっかり大きくなった」と言っても、犬を飼い始めたころから小さかったので
いまでもたいして大きくないです。

小さいんです けど
「けど」＝「けれども」形容詞活用の已然形語尾「けれ」に接続助詞「ども」が付いたものから
活用語の終止形に接続する。
(1)ある事柄に、それと逆の、または関係のうすい事柄を結びつける。
(2)前置きを本題に結びつける。
(3)二つの事柄を単に結びつける。
の意味 - goo国語辞書

(done translating)
Thank you That cleared out a lot. I'm not so fluent with Japanese yet to write full replies back in the language but thanks ^^ I get the somosomo part now. What did you mean with '「そ（其）」' though? I'm not familiar with the use of 其

 

[epigene]

nemesae,

You need not worry about the meaning of 其.

Its use is archaic now and not commonly used in modern Japanese. Nagashima-san was just explaining you the origin of "somo-somo." You can return to this kanji after you achieve an advanced level of competence. I'm saying this just because I'm afraid it will confuse you further now.

 

[Elizabeth]

Hmm, yes, it's transcribed okay, I double-checked. But the tte is a different form of to (as in 'to iu'), if you were confused about that

*starts translating Hiroyuki's explanation*

英語では、自分の言ったことについて、「って言っても」を使って疑問文は奇妙 な感じがします。

でも、日本語だと、「（って？）と言っても」の後に、ＩＦ文（～ば）が続くからちょっと変な感じがするんでしょうね。

 

[bentenmusume]

英語では、自分の言ったことについて、「って言っても」を使って疑問文は奇妙 な感じがします。

でも、日本語だと、「（って？）と言っても」の後に、ＩＦ文（～ば）が続くからちょっと変な感じがするんでしょうね。

It's an idiomatic usage, but there's nothing really strange about it.

I tend to think of it as "Well, even saying that...", or "That being said...".

It's basically just indicating that you're qualifying your previous statement.

 

[Elizabeth]

It's an idiomatic usage, but there's nothing really strange about it.

I tend to think of it as "Well, even saying that...", or "That being said...".

It's basically just indicating that you're qualifying your previous statement.

That does put it in a different light. I was trying too frame it more literally, "although I say...." (now/for the time being, but that may change....)." In any event, it still seems both would be awkward in English for referring to natural processes, or really anything as obvious a dog getting larger over time. ☝

 

[hebiichigo]

Makes more sense.. but it's strange I couldn't find the word in any online dictionary and when I typed it in in google in hiragana there came a lot of dog and cat pictures, which is why I thought it to be onomatopoeia. Could you explain how you got to 'in de first place', 'to begin with'?
It's a Shinya interview, by the way, if you're wondering why on earth I'd be translating an interview about dogs ^_~

I see it's been explained now in a lot more detail than I could ^^
But そもそも was in both my 電子辞書 and online here.
Oh, Shinya and his dogs. XD I get it now~

 

[bentenmusume]

That does put it in a different light. I was trying too frame it more literally, "although I say...." (now/for the time being, but that may change....)." In any event, it still seems both would be awkward in English for referring to natural processes, or really anything as obvious a dog getting larger over time.

Why? I'm still not really seeing the awkwardness, except maybe for the fact that we don't really have a "stock phrase" for this that's as commonly used as 「と言っても」 is in Japanese. Its usage really has nothing to do with the "process" of the dog getting larger and how "obvious" this is or isn't. It can be used whenever the speaker wants to qualify a previous statement.

Let me quote the two explanations (they're really basically the same thing) given in my 日本語文型辞典, maybe they'll make it more clear for you.

「前文で述べたことから期待されることがらに対して、実際はそれほど程度が重くないと修正をくわえ、限定するのに使う。」

例：
１）ビデオの作品を作った。といっても、せいぜい１０分の短い作品だけど。
２）仕事場が変わりました。といっても同じ階の端から端へ移っただけなんですけど。

「前に述べたことについて、それが実際にはそれほど程度の重いことではないとつけ足すのに用いる。」

例：
１）料理ができるといっても、卵焼きぐらいです。
２）シンガポールへ行ったといっても、実際は一日滞在しただけです。
３）去年は珍しく雪が降りました。いや、降ったといっても、ほんの少しで、すぐ消えてしまいました。

Does this make it any more clear?

Back to the dog example -- I have no idea what kind of dog it is, but clearly it's a breed that doesn't grow that big to begin with. So the speaker feels the need to qualify his statement that the dog has grown by pointing out that even still, the dog was small to begin with and so even now isn't that big.

To make it completely clear while destroying any of the naturalness or brevity of the sentence (This is going to sound a lot like Nagashima-san's explanation in Japanese, but let me try to make it even more obvious)

"(My dog) has gotten so big now (compared to when I just got him and he was a tiny little puppy) -- well, though I say "big", I have to qualify this by letting you know that this dog -- being (a chihuahua or poodle or whatever) -- is small to begin with/by nature (i.e. isn't the type of dog who grows to be huge to begin with) and therefore is still relatively small -- or considerably smaller, at least, than you probably envisioned when I used the word "big" to describe it just now.

 

[orochi]

I just want to back up jt_ on the point. Nothing at all wrong with the grammatical pattern in question.

 

[Elizabeth]

Why? I'm still not really seeing the awkwardness, except maybe for the fact that we don't really have a "stock phrase" for this that's as commonly used as 「と言っても」 is in Japanese. Its usage really has nothing to do with the "process" of the dog getting larger and how "obvious" this is or isn't. It can be used whenever the speaker wants to qualify a previous statement.

Let me quote the two explanations (they're really basically the same thing) given in my 日本語文型辞典, maybe they'll make it more clear for you.

Sure, those were useful. Thanks. Somehow I was reading "tte itte mo" in the original and Nagashima's explanation as an attempt to qualify that, this dog, perhaps particularly small for his/her breed to begin with, may actually not be as fully grown as may I think, or as I'm saying now. Most people I think realize that largeness in adult animals is a relative thing....

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

It was told about an onomatopoeia by a Japanese education program (a Japanese lecture).
English and French heard that there were not many onomatopoeias.
How do you express a Japanese onomatopoeia? :roflmao:

1.雨が、ざあざあふっている。
2.雨が、しとしとふっている。
3.雨が、ぽつぽつふっている。

 

[nemesae]

*is at school so can't view Japanese fonts *
Anyway, I'm suspecting it's about a chihuahua, so it could be true about the dog being small even still now

 

[Elizabeth]

仮に外国に行くとすれば、私は韓国へ行くだろう。と言っても今日、明日の話じゃないけれども。

And on the subject of と言っても....does the use of 話じゃない basically indicate there is no plan to visit Korea today or tomorrow (in the immediate future) ? 'Although I say Korea would probably be the country I'd visit in the event of any overseas travel, it won't be the situation/come to pass in the near term ?'

 

[Glenn]

'Although I say Korea would probably be the country I'd visit in the event of any overseas travel, it won't be the situation/come to pass in the near term ?'

That looks dead-on to me. Although I would phrase it "If I were to go to a foreign country, I would probably go to Korea. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to go any time soon," or something like that.