Need a word or phrase translated?

Elizabeth · 21 Jul 2004

Here's another example.

And in this case of two neutral or positive alternatives, 'If I was forced to say' or
'If I were forced to decide' comes off much more natural to me than

"If anything, I would say I prefer John Lennon" which may sound a bit defensive
or awkward, as if you were somehow responding to criticism or negative allegations about him.

[どちらかというと（どちらかいえば）]
→例）ジョンレノンとポールマッカトニーのどちらが好きですか？
ときかれたとき、どちらもある程度好きで明確な差はないけれど、あえて
言えばジョンレノンの方が好きな場合。
「どちらかというとジョンレノンの方が好きです」と答えられます。

PaulTB · 21 Jul 2004

Elizabeth said:
"If anything, I would say I prefer John Lennon" which may sound a bit defensive or awkward, as if you were somehow responding to criticism or negative allegations about him.

But that comes under "where the speaker does not want to make a decision" because by saying you prefer John Lennon you are saying that the other bloke is worse. It's not a neutral situation.

Elizabeth · 21 Jul 2004

Without knowing from this brief description whether the speaker wants to make a decision or not, I was simply using 'neutral' in the sense of this being a decision made on the fly without there not being much initial preference for either Lennon or McCartney. On the order of "If I had to say, probably Lennon a little more" after remembering you have five of his recordings and only four of McCartney' type of off the cuff response.

But maybe I'm missing something here....what is the significance of あえて言えば by the way? :?

PaulTB · 21 Jul 2004

Elizabeth said:
what is the significance of あえて言えば by the way? :?

That's new to this thread isn't it? Basically "If I dare to venture an opinion"

あえて言いますが、もし我々がそんなことをすれば大変な誤りを犯すことになると私は思います。
At the risk of sticking my neck out, I think that if we do that, we're making a big, big mistake.

Bekkichan · 22 Jul 2004

よろしければ私も質問があります :hey:

こんな文なんです。

「他にやってないから変わってるなあと思われるかもしれんけど」

それって「One might think it's strange, since [we] haven't done/aren't doing anything else, but...」と言う感じだと思いますけど・・・ :?

よろしくお願いしま～す！

PaulTB · 22 Jul 2004

Bekkichan said:
「他にやってないから変わってるなあと思われるかもしれんけど」

それって「One might think it's strange, since we aren't doing anything else, but...」と言う感じだと思いますけど・・・ :?

そうだろうと思います。たぶん、 ☝

wakaP · 22 Jul 2004

Many thanks, PaulTB and Elizabeth!

Your posts help my understanding how to say 'どちらかというと' and 'あえていうと' in English.

> Do you agree that those look like good translations of どちらかというと ?

I completely agree with your 'If I had to choose, I'd say ...',
and I think it would be the best literal translations of 'どちらかというと'.
As to 'If I had to say, I'd say...', in my opinion, it would be good translation of 'あえていうと'.

In my opinion,basically, 'どちらかというと' is suitable in the case that 'a speaker has difficulty to choose or decide, but he/she has to choose or decide',
on the other hand, 'あえていうと' is suitable in the case that a speaker doesn't want to say, but he/she has to say'.

However, many Japanese sometimes say 'あえていうと' in a 'どちらかというと' situation (in a forced choice context).
I guess the reason why is that the 'どちらかというと' situation includes the 'being forced to say' situation.
In most of the 'どちらかというと' situations, speakers are required not only to choose but to say the choice.
I think both 'どちらかというと' and 'あえていうと' are natural in forced choice context.

As mentioned by PaulTB, in the case that 'a speaker dares to venture an opinion', 'あえていうと' is suitable but 'どちらかというと' is not.

私はこの文章を日本語でなく「あえて」英語で書いています。
I dare to write the above sentences in English, not in Japanese.

By the way, where has 'if anything' gone..... :?

PaulTB · 22 Jul 2004

wakaP said:
By the way, where has 'if anything' gone..... :?

It hasn't gone anywhere, it's just lost under the haze of confusion. :?

I don't quite agree with Elizabeth, and I'm not sure that you've quite followed all of my posts entirely correctly. However I've got an important rule of thumb I use when learning Japanese. When two reasonable native speakers of Japanese can't agree on some nuance of the language then it's obscure and subjective enough that I'd be better off ignoring it for now.

As mentioned by PaulTB, in the case that 'a speaker dares to venture an opinion', 'あえていうと' is suitable but 'どちらかというと' is not.

I'd love to take credit for that - but I didn't actually say it.

BTW, the only reason I've got the 'TB'* stuck on the end is that 'Paul' was already taken as a username. Feel free to use just Paul.

* Middle & last initials if you're wondering.

Elizabeth · 22 Jul 2004

PaulTB said:
It hasn't gone anywhere, it's just lost under the haze of confusion. :?

No worries, WakaP, it is still there, stuck in the original sentence where "if anything" may flow more logically in question form as an English translation than "if I had to choose".....

→「く」が使われる文はどちらかというと砕けた言い方でしょうか？ｏｒ
→「く」を使かう文はどちらかというと砕けた言い方でしょうか？

although as corrections of 「く」が使われる文はむしろ砕けた言い方でしょうか？the use of どちらかというと (if anything) would seem to be assuming an argument that the use of "ku" actually makes a sentence more formal.

Which I wasn't presuming at all. All I intended to ask was simply whether "ku" adjectives are a somewhat/rather kudaketa style of speech. And even now I'm still not clear on exactly where the misinterpretation could have come into play, perhaps around the sense of 'mushiro'? :?

wakaP · 22 Jul 2004

こんにちわ，Paulさん

Paulさんの言う通り，私がPaulさんの投稿のすべてを完全に正しく理解できているとは
思っていません。でも，大筋では理解したつもりです。
（やっぱ，下手なのに無理して英語で書いたのがまずかったかな）

PaulさんとElizabethさんの "neutral, positive, negative"の議論は参考になりました。
日本語だと"どちらかというと"の一言で済む場合でも，状況によって言い方が変わるのですね。

>>As mentioned by PaulTB, in the case that 'a speaker dares to venture an opinion',
>>'あえていうと' is suitable but 'どちらかというと' is not.
> I'd love to take credit for that - but I didn't actually say it.

Paulさんの'a speaker dares to venture an opinion'を引用したくて，
こう書きましたが，間違ってましたね。

ところで，"if anything"の件ですが，
和英辞書（KenkyuSha Japanese-English Dictionary）だと

"どちらかというと": if anything,
例) He was, if anything, a good singer.

英和辞書（KenkyuSha English-Japanese Dictionary）だと

"if anything": どちらかと言えば, むしろ, それどころか; いずれにしても
例）Things are, if anything, improving,
例）True greatness has little, if anything, to do with rank and power.

と説明されてました。参考までに。

########
これってLearning Englishのthreadに投稿すべきなんだろうなあ。。。
でも日本語の勉強にもなるような気がするし。難しいなあ。 :?

PaulTB · 22 Jul 2004

Elizabeth said:
although as corrections of 「く」が使われる文はむしろ砕けた言い方でしょうか？the use of どちらかというと (if anything) would seem to be assuming an argument that the use of "ku" actually makes a sentence more formal.

I don't see the (original?)
「く」が使われる文はむしろ砕けた言い方でしょうか？
anywhere.

However I think that in that sentence and in both

「く」が使われる文はどちらかというと砕けた言い方でしょうか？
and
「く」を使かう文はどちらかというと砕けた言い方でしょうか？

the presumption is that sentences using 「く」 are informal. In fact I think that in the one with むしろ that is most the case.

wakaP said:
（やっぱ，下手なのに無理して英語で書いたのがまずかったかな）

そんなことありませんよ。

wakaP said:
日本語だと"どちらかというと"の一言で済む場合でも，状況によって言い方が変わるのですね。

その文がわかるようなわからないような気がします。どっちかというとわからないんでしょう。

wakaP said:
これってLearning Englishのthreadに投稿すべきなんだろうなあ。。。

気にせんでもええよ。*

* 言ってみたい文です。

Elizabeth · 22 Jul 2004

PaulTB said:
I don't see the (original?)
「く」が使われる文はむしろ砕けた言い方でしょうか？
anywhere.

However I think that in that sentence and in both

「く」が使われる文はどちらかというと砕けた言い方でしょうか？
and
「く」を使かう文はどちらかというと砕けた言い方でしょうか？

the presumption is that sentences using 「く」 are informal. In fact I think that in the one with むしろ that is most the case.

Presumably what happened was that 'mushiro' was taken as 'instead' or 'alternatively' when the original nuance was 'rather' or somewhat' and was hence "corrected into" はどちらかというと.

'If anything' is generally used of course to negate a contradictory assumption. And as it turns out....."ku" may have informal connotations, just not one that necessarily suggests kudaketa.

PaulTB · 22 Jul 2004

Elizabeth said:
'If anything' is generally used of course to negate a contradictory assumption.

I'm not sure I agree with 'generally' enough for 'of course' to apply. Although that is more likely the case for the full phrase "If anything I'd say"

Elizabeth · 22 Jul 2004

PaulTB said:
I'm not sure I agree with 'generally' enough for 'of course' to apply. Although that is more likely the case for the full phrase "If anything I'd say"

Yeah, certainly you have common constructions like "What, if anything, is....." I was referring specifically to the どちらかというと 'wake' pattern :emoji_grinning:

PaulTB · 22 Jul 2004

Elizabeth said:
Yeah, you can have constructions like "What, if anything, is....." I was referring specifically to the どちらかというと 'waka' pattern

Yes but there are related English sayings that might be translated into どちらかというと such as "If anything I think that ..." and the nuance of "used to negate a contradictory assumption" in those is not as strong.

wakaP · 23 Jul 2004

PaulTB said:
気にせんでもええよ。*

わお！関西弁ですね。
「かまへん、かまへん」も是非、使って下さい。
（かまへん=かまわない=I don't mind）
I am a native the Kansai dialect speaker in Tokyo.
So, I miss the Kansai dialect in dairy life....

お二人のやり取りを見ていて、"if anything"がどこにいったのかが
分かってきたような気がしますが、自信がないので確認させて下さい。

"if anything I'd say.." にはnuance of "used to negate a contradictory assumption"がある。"if anything"が使われていても、このnuanceが強くない場合もある。
ということなんでしょうか？

日本語だと、「むしろ」はnuance of "used to negate a contradictory assumption"が強いですね。「そうではなくて、むしろ～～だ」のように、相手の意見に反対する文脈でよく使われます。「どちらかというと」は「むしろ」と同じように使われることもありますが、一般的にはこのnuanceは強くありません。Elizabethさんが言うようにsomehow/ratherと言いたいときにはもっとも適切だと思います。自分の判断や発言に自信がない（確信がもてない）場合にも「どちらかというと」を使います。

ちなみに、instead、alternativelyには「あるいは」「もしくは」が対応するのだと思います。

Elizabeth · 24 Jul 2004

お二人のやり取りを見ていて、"if anything"がどこにいったのかが
分かってきたような気がしますが、自信がないので確認させて下さい。

"if anything I'd say.." にはnuance of "used to negate a contradictory assumption"がある。"if anything"が使われていても、このnuanceが強くない場合もある。
ということなんでしょうか？

"If anything, I'd say" はそんなに特別ではないと思うけど。多分一般的に[If anything, I'd say]には、[I'd say]が付けているということのようですね。

別々に「If anything、If anything I'd say, If anything I think, If anything there is」問ういう風に使う場合が多いかもしれないです。「If anything」の終わりの言葉は文によりますね。以下の文の同様に、意味は同じでも、状況や人によって言い方が異なる場合が多いですよね。

He was, if anything, (I'd say/I think) a good singer.

英和辞書（KenkyuSha English-Japanese Dictionary）だと

"if anything": どちらかと言えば, むしろ, それどころか; いずれにしても
例）Things are, if anything (I'd say/I think), improving.
例）True greatness has little, if anything, (I'd say/I think), to do with rank and power.

日本語だと、「むしろ」はnuance of "used to negate a contradictory assumption"が強いですね。「そうではなくて、むしろ～～だ」のように、相手の意見に反対する文脈でよく使われます。「どちらかというと」は「むしろ」と同じように使われることもありますが、一般的にはこのnuanceは強くありません。Elizabethさんが言うようにsomehow/ratherと言いたいときにはもっとも適切だと思います。自分の判断や発言に自信がない（確信がもてない）場合にも「どちらかというと」を使います。

ちなみに、instead、alternativelyには「あるいは」「もしくは」が対応するのだと思います。

日本語って奥が深いですね。そしてそれぞれの英語の言葉にも、意味がたくさんあります。意味が広く。でも、多分「く」が使われる文はむしろ砕けた言い方でしょうか」と私の始めの文ですが、「むしろ」だと、ちょっと適当じゃないそうです。
「むしろ」を使うのは、二者択一の場合や方向を示す時だけでしょうか？

Kama · 24 Jul 2004

How to say: I started working 3 weeks ago? Everyone except for one girl are much older than me?

wakaP · 24 Jul 2004

Elizabethさん，こんにちわ。

Elizabeth said:
"If anything, I'd say" はそんなに特別ではないと思うけど。多分一般的に[If anything, I'd say]には、[I'd say]が付いているということのようですね。

それぞれに「If anything、If anything I'd say, If anything I think, If anything there is」とういう風に使う場合が多いかもしれないです。「If anything」の終わりの言葉が何かは文によりますね。以下の文も同様に、意味は同じでも、状況や人によって言い方が異なる場合が多いですよ。

He was, if anything, (I'd say/I think) a good singer.

英和辞書（KenkyuSha English-Japanese Dictionary）だと

"if anything": どちらかと言えば, むしろ, それどころか; いずれにしても
例）Things are, if anything (I'd say/I think), improving.
例）True greatness has little, if anything, (I'd say/I think), to do with rank and power.

ありがとうございます。"if anything"の正体がかなり分かってきました。

日本語って奥が深いですね。そしてそれぞれの英語の言葉にも、意味がたくさんあります。

そうですね。同じ言葉でも場合によって，ニュアンスや意味が変わるのは日本語や英語に限らず，どの言葉でも同じでしょうね。

多分「く」が使われる文はむしろ砕けた言い方でしょうか」という私の始めの文ですが、「むしろ」だと、ちょっと適当じゃないそうです。

>「むしろ」だと、ちょっと適当じゃないそうです。
という日本語は，このままだと
"I heard that 「むしろ」would be not suitable"という意味にもとれますが，
もしかするとElizabethさんは
「"むしろ"だと、ちょっと適当じゃなさそうです。」（"it seems that 「むしろ」is not suitable"）と言いたいのですか。

「むしろ」を使うのは、二者択一の場合や方向を示す時だけでしょうか？

その通りだと考えていいと思います。
先にも書いたように，一方の選択肢を否定するニュアンスが強い言葉です。

辞書の例文）
彼ははえぬきの外交官ですか.―いいえ, むしろ学者です.
Is he a career diplomat?―No. If anything, he is an academic.

やるのが少し早すぎたんじゃないかな.―いや, むしろもっと早くやればよかった.
We did it a bit too early, didn't we?―No. If anything, we should have done it earlier.

彼は学者というよりもむしろジャーナリストだ.
He is a journalist rather than [more of a journalist than] a scholar.｜He is not so much a scholar as a journalist.

悪いことをして金をもうけるよりはむしろ貧乏でいた方がいい.
I would rather be poor than get money by dishonest means.

Kama said:
How to say: I started working 3 weeks ago? Everyone except for one girl are much older than me?

1)私は3週間前から働き始めました。
2)一人の女の子以外は，全員私よりずいぶん年上です。

こんな感じかな。

mr.brien · 24 Jul 2004

Thanks for you guys' help on "kamikaze-like." Do any of you have suggestions on translating the rest of these?

2. "Eat More"

3. "Insane"

4. "Plastic"

5. "Crazy!" as in, "That's really crazy, dude!"

6. "Batteries not included"

7. "Use at your own risk."

Thanks!

Buntaro · 24 Jul 2004

Hi Kama,

"I started working 3 weeks ago" = "Watashi wa san shuu kan mae kara hataraite imasu." (I have been working for three weeks.)

and

"Everyone except for one girl are much older than me." = "Koko de hataraite iru mina san wa, hitori no onna no hita igai, watashi yori totemo wakakunai desu."

For the word "older" I chose "wakakunai" bacause I think that it sounds better than "toshi yori" or "toshi totte iru"....

Mr. Brian, I know only a few of these:

2. "Eat More" = "Motto tabenasai."

3. "Insane" = "kichigai"

4. "Plastic" = I believe they just say "purasutikku" except for a thin sheet of plastic, like a book cover. Then they say "biniiru" borrowed from the English word "veneer"

5. "Crazy!" as in, "That's really crazy, dude!" = "Okashii"

Elizabeth · 24 Jul 2004

辞書の例文）
彼ははえぬきの外交官ですか.―いいえ, むしろ学者です.
Is he a career diplomat?―No. If anything, he is an academic.

やるのが少し早すぎたんじゃないかな.―いや, むしろもっと早くやればよかった.
We did it a bit too early, didn't we?―No. If anything, we should have done it earlier.

これは私の基準だけですが、その場合、[If anything]はきつく聞こえるし余り聞いたことがないと思います。このthreadでは疑問を持つのももっともだということに気がついて楽しいです。

多分、[Rather, he's an academic]とか[He's more of an academic]のほうが自然な言い方（書き方）です。

[Actually, we should have done it earlier], [Rather/Instead we should have done it earlier], [We should have done it even earlier]がよいでしょう。

それと「むしろ、どちらかというと」の代わりに、「もしあるにても」という表現がありますか？ :?

wakaP · 25 Jul 2004

Buntaro said:
For the word "older" I chose "wakakunai" bacause I think that it sounds better than "toshi yori" or "toshi totte iru"....

@Buntaro さん，はじめまして。
"wakakunai (not young)"はマズイです。
特に，女性に対して使うのは好ましくありません。
(I don't recommend "wakakunai",
because it is frequently used for insulting others, especially women.)
年齢(nenrei =age)を話題にするときは，"年上(toshiue =older)"を使いましょう。

Buntaro · 25 Jul 2004

WakaP San!

Thanks for the help. My Japanese is terrible <wiping tears away>. :emoji_flushed:

By the way, I feel sorry for you that you have to miss Kansai Ben while living in Tokyo. Gambatte! :emoji_grinning:

Elizabeth · 25 Jul 2004

Buntaro said:
Hi Kama,

"I started working 3 weeks ago" = "Watashi wa san shuu kan mae kara hataraite imasu." (I have been working for three weeks.)

こんにちわみんなさん！

Can you also use a 'natte kara' pattern here....as in

San shuu kan mae ni natte kara hataraite imasu/hatarakihajimete imasu. (?)

Need a word or phrase translated?

先輩

Manga Psychic

先輩

Manga Psychic

Transloter!

Manga Psychic

後輩

Manga Psychic

先輩

後輩

Manga Psychic

先輩

Manga Psychic

先輩

Manga Psychic

後輩

先輩

Okama XD

後輩

後輩

運動不足

先輩

後輩

運動不足

先輩

Similar threads