Need a word or phrase translated?

fine82 · 22 Jun 2007

Thanks again undretide.

I've been reading someone of your posts and you seem to know everything. Are you a local?

I also thought of another important question. Would you be able to help?

I wanted to say that "she can't bear it if other people is dating a boy more handsome than her boyfriend". Could you correct me if I am wrong?

I think it would be "人が自分よりかっこいい男と付き合ったら我慢できない". I am kind of unsure whether it should be 人は or 人が (for the part 'other people'). (Perhaps there are other problems with my sentence?)

If anyone knows the right answer, please feel free to explain.

Thank you.

Charles Barkley · 22 Jun 2007

I would imagine you are correct with が, since isnt it true that は can't be used in relative clauses?

I also have a question for others about your sentence: do you need to add something like "her boyfriend" after 自分? Something like 自分の（彼氏）より...

FrustratedDave · 22 Jun 2007

fine82 said:
Thanks again undertide.
I've been reading someone of your posts and you seem to know everything. Are you a local?
I also thought of another important question. Would you be able to help?
I wanted to say that "she can't bear it if other people is dating a boy more handsome than her boyfriend". Could you correct me if I am wrong?
I think it would be "人が自分よりかっこいい男と付き合ったら我慢できない". I am kind of unsure whether it should be 人は or 人が (for the part 'other people'). (Perhaps there are other problems with my sentence?)
If anyone knows the right answer, please feel free to explain.
Thank you.

Let me translate your English sentence first. "She can't bear if other people are dating boys more handsome than her boyfriend" Did I get it right? If so maybe you could say this,

"彼女は他人が自分の彼氏よりかっこいい人と付き合ったら耐えられない。"
You could say this too,
"彼女は他人が自分の彼氏より男前人と付き合ったら耐えられない。"

I found your translation to be understandable after reading the English one, but there were a few things missing , but it was a good try.

fine82 · 22 Jun 2007

Thanks Charles and Dave.

Yes, that is what I mean. What particularly concerned me was the particle of "が" and "は". But in that situation, I guess I got it right!

Charles Barkley · 22 Jun 2007

FrustratedDave said:
Let me translate your English sentence first. "She can't bear if other people are dating boys more handsome than her boyfriend" Did I get it right? If so maybe you could say this,
"彼女は他人が自分の彼氏よりかっこいい人と付き合ったら耐えられない。"
You could say this too,
"彼女は他人が自分の彼氏より男前人と付き合ったら耐えられない。"
I found your translation to be understandable after reading the English one, but there were a few things missing , but it was a good try.

I have some questions about 自分 here. How do you know who it refers to in the above sentence.

彼女は他人が _自分_ Does jibun in this kind of sentence always refer to the topic of the sentence, ie, whoever is before the は? Or does it depend on the context? Or is there some other way of knowing what it refers to?

私はどうして他人が自分の彼女を馬鹿にするか分かりません。

To me, either because I have the wrong idea or some other reason, the above sentence seems ambiguous. It seems like it could either mean:

I don't know why other people make fun of my girlfriend. OR
I don't know why other people make fun of their girlfriends.

?

FrustratedDave · 22 Jun 2007

Charles Barkley said:
I have some questions about 自分 here. How do you know who it refers to in the above sentence.
彼女は他人が _自分_ Does jibun in this kind of sentence always refer to the topic of the sentence, ie, whoever is before the は? Or does it depend on the context? Or is there some other way of knowing what it refers to?
私はどうして他人が自分の彼女を馬鹿にするか分かりません。
To me, either because I have the wrong idea or some other reason, the above sentence seems ambiguous. It seems like it could either mean:
I don't know why other people make fun of my girlfriend. OR
I don't know why other people make fun of their girlfriends.
?

I go with the first one, "I don't know why other people make fun of my girlfriend. "

However if I were to say, "私はどうして他人が自分らの彼女たちを馬鹿にするか分かりません。 You could take it as the second translation, you may not even need the "たち" on the "彼女".

Elizabeth · 22 Jun 2007

undrentide said:
FrustratedDave already gave you an excellent answer so this is just a side note:

Except formal writing/speech, using phrase with adjective/verb sounds more natural than using noun. Especially 漢語的表現 sounds very 硬い.
× あなたは英語の素晴らしい話者です。
○ あなたの話す英語は素晴らしいですね。英語を話すのが上手ですね。

はい、わかりました。ある程度、私の英語に対する気持ちは、同じです。

その上、特に、XXXが欲しいという形を日本語はちょっと要求するかな。。。

情交 does meaning "intimate", but normally (or at least to me) it strongly implies the sexual intimacy, which may not what you intend to say.

ありがとうございます。実は、わざとあいまいな言い方をしたかったのです。性的の感じから、ちゃんと話し合える人と一緒にいたいといういろんな広い意味で使える言葉を探しています。

彼女は他人が _自分_ Does jibun in this kind of sentence always refer to the topic of the sentence, ie, whoever is before the は? Or does it depend on the context? Or is there some other way of knowing what it refers to?

私はどうして他人が自分の彼女を馬鹿にするか分かりません。

To me, either because I have the wrong idea or some other reason, the above sentence seems ambiguous. It seems like it could either mean:

I don't know why other people make fun of my girlfriend. OR
I don't know why other people make fun of their girlfriends.

It could I think refer to "his" girlfriend if that had been the topic under discussion or was the subject of the preceeding sentence.

"彼女は他人が自分の彼氏よりかっこいい人と付き合ったら耐えられない。"
You could say this too,
"彼女は他人が自分の彼氏より男前人と付き合ったら耐えられない。"

「がまんできない」 may not be as strong as 耐えられない but is also perfectly understandable as far as I can tell in the original sentence with the translation "I can't stand" or "I can't bear." 我慢ならない may be another possibility ?

Elizabeth · 22 Jun 2007

FrustratedDave said:
Just my oppinion ,but it sounds very ,very "硬い" to me, and would almost be never used. To me the best answer is to this question 「どうして会いに来る必要がある？」 is 「すごく寂しいから」. In these kind of circumstances simple is most often the best. I had a hard time comming to terms with things that required a lot of effort and lenght of an explanation in English to convey what you were trying to say, but were very simple in Japanese. I always felt like more was needed, but in the end the 相手 just gets confused and wonders what you are going on about. 「すごく寂しいから」 This statement has many, many very deep meanings in certain situations. If you feel the need to elaborate do so carefully, but the "相手" will usually respond the way you want them to and you can go on and saying that you want to "会いたい" all these words imply that you want to be close to or to have a sense of closeness.
This is also one of the reasons why I am called frustrated Dave. I am told I explain to much in some situations and not enough in others, go figure????.....
The reason is b/c our way of thinking is just plain and simple different to most Japanese in most situations that we will encounter. The problem is whether those people will point that out to you when you encounter them so you can make ammends. The unsaid language here is just as important as the literal.

JREF's resident Japanese tutor and language master NANGI explained it very succinctly four years ago with this statement:

"The Japanese are misunderstood by their indirect expressions and silence. But the foreigners are disliked by their clearly expressing and eloquence."

It's a way of thinking that I always try to hold at the front of my mind but restraining myself and putting into action has been much more of an uphill climb than it probably ought to be. At least most everyone has been patient so far and of course still treats me very much as a foreigner so using 硬い言い方 isn't necessarily the kiss of death it might be otherwise. Being able to speak and understand with confidence also sets up a very comfortable situation for silences to linger. It isn't taken that you are fumbling for words or have no idea how to proceed, but a more sophisticated reading of nuances will take time, as always....

FrustratedDave · 22 Jun 2007

Elizabeth said:
JREF's resident Japanese tutor and language master NANGI explained it very succinctly four years ago with this statement:
"The Japanese are misunderstood by their indirect expressions and silence. But the foreigners are disliked by their clearly expressing and eloquence."
It's a way of thinking that I always try to hold at the front of my mind but restraining myself and putting into action has been much more of an uphill climb than it probably ought to be. At least most everyone has been patient so far and of course still treats me very much as a foreigner so using ﾂ硬窶堋｢ﾅ陳ｾ窶堋｢窶｢ﾃｻ isn't necessarily the kiss of death it might be otherwise. Being able to speak and understand with confidence also sets up a very comfortable situation for silences to linger. It isn't taken that you are fumbling for words or have no idea how to proceed, but a more sophisticated reading of nuances will take time, as always....

That pretty much sums it up I think, this quote.

The problem I face (Saying this is no way meant to be a form of braging or blowing my own horn) is that I am too flutent at speaking for my own good. I am told many times that I have no accent and could be mistaken for a native speaker if I did not have the face I have, actually I am mistaken for a native when using the phone. But this is a terrible hinderance b/c I have not fully been able to conquer the silent langauge or indirect speach. I then try very hard to not be so dirrect and I suffer b/c of this b/c I become too "窶堋?窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋｢ﾂ"ﾂ for my own good. I am running my own business and I am expected to act and present like a typical Japanese, this is not a bad thing , but I do find it very difficult to communicate when unsaid words speak loudest. I suppose I am just in a very diffuicult time in my life.

Thanks for all the help, as it is much appreciated and it is good to know people who can relate. Thanks.

fine82 · 23 Jun 2007

In regards to what Charles asked, here is my two cents.

『自分』 in that sentence means 'oneself'. As in, "Why do people make fun of 'one's own' girlfriend.

My question for today is the sentence, 「探したって見つかるわけがありません』.

the part in question is the part [たって』。Would anyone be able to translate the above? I have a rough idea of what it means but am still a little unclear.

For example, how would you say " "Look for it!?" There's no way to find it!!"

Is it 探すって！？見つかるわけがありません！

Thank you.

FrustratedDave · 23 Jun 2007

All I can say is that it gives you the impression that the person saying what ever it is they are saying has already resigned to the fact that it won't be found. The closest translation I can come up with would be " Even if I/we did look for it, there is no way its going to be found!"

undrentide · 23 Jun 2007

～したって＝（たとえ）～したとしても

Fuumei · 23 Jun 2007

undrentide said:
～したって＝（たとえ）～したとしても

Wow, that's a good one to write down. Thanks for explaining that one Undretide-san. :note:

Elizabeth · 23 Jun 2007

fine82 said:
In regards to what Charles asked, here is my two cents.
『自分』 in that sentence means 'oneself'. As in, "Why do people make fun of 'one's own' girlfriend.

"One's one girlfriend" I don't understand the English of, so with nothing else in the context to go on, "my own" is the correct interpretation.

この場合は、別に特定の人をさして言っていると思います。

undrentide · 23 Jun 2007

Charles Barkley said:
私はどうして他人が自分の彼女を馬鹿にするか分かりません。

To me, either because I have the wrong idea or some other reason, the above sentence seems ambiguous. It seems like it could either mean:

I don't know why other people make fun of my girlfriend. OR
I don't know why other people make fun of their girlfriends.

?

自分 means "self" so it could be either of the above, it really depends on the context.

他人 sounds rather like people who are stranger to the speaker, or those not one of speaker's family/class mates/colleagues, etc.
Then 自分 sounds like "myself". (Another factor is that some male speakers call themselves 自分, so it is natural to interpret 自分の as "my".)

I don't know why they make fun of MY girlfriend.

If it is people in general, those around the speaker, not speaker himself, then one might say 他の人 or simply 人.

私はどうして（ほかの）人が自分の彼女を馬鹿にするか分かりません。
Then one would interpret that 自分 refers to themselves,

I don't know why they make fun of THEIR (own) girlfriend.

Still, both interpretations are valid. (I mean, MY or THEIR).

fine82 · 23 Jun 2007

The difference between the particle は and が。

A lot of people studying Japanese are confused about this... right?

Would anyone be able to explain the use of those two particles?

Here is my concern. For example.

彼が私のことを必要としている。 - he needs me

彼は、私のことを必要としている。

Now... they both make sense right? So.. what's going on!?

I always tell myself that が is used to describe who is DOING the action. But this self imposed rule doesn't always hold up. Here is an example where it doesn't hold up.

。。。と彼は思った。 - He thought...

Now は is used in this context. What bothers me is why the fact が is not used. (I must admit that 。。。と彼『が』思った sounds strange and probably has a different meaning)

Another thing..

1. 英語がわかる - (he/she) understands English.

Now why does the particle が stop this sentence from becoming "English UNDERSTANDS" (which doesn't make sense). I understand that は and が are not interchangeable but they feel so similar (and yet different).

I hope I am expressing myself well enough for the members of this board to understand my question here.

Please don't hesitate to ask for more details.

Thank you everyone.

shikyo · 23 Jun 2007

fine82 said:
The difference between the particle は and が。

(I'll try to explain what I know, but don't take my word for it, since I'm only learning myself ).
The difference is that は marks the topic and が marks the subject.

Another thing..
1. 英語がわかる - (he/she) understands English.
Now why does the particle が stop this sentence from becoming "English UNDERSTANDS" (which doesn't make sense). I understand that は and が are not interchangeable but they feel so similar (and yet different).

If you only say 英語がわかる the topic is understood (only saying this sentence will result in similar to saying: 私は英語がわかる。)
The topic is you, the subject is English and the verb is to understand, hence I understand English.
Tips: Genki has a pdf on their page (direct: Index of /~emme0007 ) that explains these particles.

FrustratedDave · 23 Jun 2007

Fuumei said:
Wow, that's a good one to write down. Thanks for explaining that one Undrentide-san.

Here is another for you Fuumei , "したって"＝"したところで"

fine82 said:
The difference between the particle は and が。
A lot of people studying Japanese are confused about this... right?
Would anyone be able to explain the use of those two particles?
Here is my concern. For example.
彼が私のことを必要としている。 - he needs me
彼は、私のことを必要としている。

In the first one it emphasises the fact that he needs me more so than in the second one.

epigene · 23 Jun 2007

彼が私のことを必要としている。 - he needs me

彼は、私のことを必要としている。

Now... they both make sense right? So.. what's going on!?

The second one is a plain statement that he needs me.
The first implies that he is the person who needs me and no other. There is an implict exclusion of other persons.

。。。と彼は思った。 - He thought...

Now は is used in this context. What bothers me is why the fact が is not used. (I must admit that 。。。と彼『が』思った sounds strange and probably has a different meaning)

Similarly, the emphasis is on "he" and no other. It implicitly says that "he" thought but not some other person.

英語がわかる - (he/she) understands English.

This implies that the person understands English--but probably not other languages. The speaker is stating what language the person in question understands and is suggesting the speaker does not know whether or not the said person understands French, for example.

Elizabeth · 23 Jun 2007

This implies that the person understands English--but probably not other languages. The speaker is stating what language the person in question understands and is suggesting the speaker does not know whether or not the said person understands French, for example.

Sorry if I'm a bit tired this morning, but isn't 英語が分かります、英語ができます、英語が話せます commonly used by non-native speakers ?

For the latter I try to remember to mark with 日本語を話せます。
It doesn't stop Japanese, though, who prefer to emphasize their accomplishment with a が。。。

undrentide · 23 Jun 2007

To me ～語を話せますか sounds a bit like 翻訳調, when asking people if they speak a language, I'd say
～語が話せますか
～語がわかりますか

Elizabeth · 23 Jun 2007

Tips: Genki has a pdf on their page that explains these particles.

There's also this thread, among gazillions of other sources, before you need to worry about making up more Japanese grammar 'rules' on the fly....

When are you supposed to use は or が? | Japan Forum

Elizabeth · 23 Jun 2007

undrentide said:
To me ～語を話せますか sounds a bit like 翻訳調, when asking people if they speak a language, I'd say
～語が話せますか
～語がわかりますか

そうですね。「私は、」や「彼は」などの主語がつく場合は「が」の方が自然だと思いますが、
「日本で」や「アメリカで」などの場所が入った場合は「を」の方を使うかな。。。

ものの言い方にルールはない方が多いと思いますね。

shikyo · 23 Jun 2007

Elizabeth said:
There's also this thread, among gazillions of other sources, before you need to worry about making up more Japanese grammar 'rules' on the fly....

What are you implying? I haven't made up any rules on the fly, have I?

Elizabeth · 23 Jun 2007

shikyo said:
What are you implying? I haven't made up any rules on the fly, have I?

No worries. It was to the OP who was apparently trying to learn through "self-imposed" rules and things they "keep telling themselves."

Need a word or phrase translated?

先輩

TNT Basketball Analyst

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TNT Basketball Analyst

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Japa'n vagyok

眼鏡が要る

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Japa'n vagyok

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相変わらず不束者です

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Japa'n vagyok

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