Need a word or phrase translated?

Elizabeth · 18 Jun 2006

Fuumei said:
watashi no shiriai de tsuri no sukina hito ga ite, tsuri(fishing) ni iku to, itsumo tsutta(caught) sakana o kureru desu.

I wonder about "de" as a subject particle occasionally as well -- is it there to
emphasize "shiriai" (There is a person I'm acquaintanted with that likes fishing...'wa' would change this to "A person I'm acquaintanted with likes....)
or in some cases I can imagine it would qualify the target (of all my acquaintances, there are some fishing enthusiasts...).

Also:

"saisho wa yorokonde tabete ita kazoku mo, ima wa amari tabetagaranaku narimashita." Am I right in assuming this sentence means "In the beginning, even the family was eating it with pleasure.... " ?

The family that was eating with pleasure in the beginning is now ....
I'm sorry I don't know that word, tabetagaranaku, and it's still early to get my mind around misromaji ....did you mean "tabetakunaku narimsahita" ?

undrentide · 18 Jun 2006

Elizabeth said:
I wonder about "de" as a subject particle occasionally as well -- is it there to
emphasize "shiriai" (There is a person I'm acquaintanted with that likes fishing...'wa' would change this to "A person I'm acquaintanted with likes....)
or in some cases I can imagine it would qualify the target (of all my acquaintances, there are some fishing enthusiasts...). ?

Elizabeth san, you're right!
Both are possible and correct, I think, but when considering the flow of the sentence (and thought behind it), he is my acquaintance and (=de) he likes fishing.. might be more appropriate.
My explanation is more suitable for "watashi no shiriai ni"

Elizabeth said:
The family that was eating with pleasure in the beginning is now ....
I'm sorry I don't know that word, tabetagaranaku, and it's still early to get my mind around misromaji ....did you mean "tabetakunaku narimsahita" ?

"~tagaru" means "be willing to do ~", or "eagerly want to do ~".
tabetagaru here means that after a while the family became not so eager to eat the fish.

~tagaru is used to describe others while ~tai, ~takunaru are used to describe onself.
e.g.
kodomo wa nandemo sawaritagaru
kimi wa atarashii mono wo miru to, sugu kaitagaru ne.
watashi wa atarashii mono wo miru to, sugu kaitakunarimasu.

Elizabeth · 18 Jun 2006

"~tagaru" means "be willing to do ~", or "eagerly want to do ~".
tabetagaru here means that after a while the family became not so eager to eat the fish.
~tagaru is used to describe others while ~tai, ~takunaru are used to describe onself.
e.g.
kodomo wa nandemo sawaritagaru
kimi wa atarashii mono wo miru to, sugu kaitagaru ne.
watashi wa atarashii mono wo miru to, sugu kaitakunarimasu.

Thanks, undrentide !

Therefore, 食べたがらなくなりました is correct, right ?
At least I realized later that was what it probably should have been, but
not that the distinction was so strictly drawn with "naku naru" between self and other.

One more thing....depending on the thought behind it, as you say,
could "食べた（がらなく）なるようになりました。fill in as a valid grammatical substitute here ?

(My educated hunch would be this puts it closer to "the family seemed to reach the point where they didn't want to eat together) whereas "なくなった"
is a more immediate falling off of the pleasure they once felt in eating together), yes ? not really ? no ?

undrentide · 19 Jun 2006

Elizabeth said:
Thanks, undrentide !
Therefore, 食べたがらなくなりました is correct, right ?
At least I realized later that was what it probably should have been, but
not that the distinction was so strictly drawn with "naku naru" between self and other.

Yes, 食べたがらなくなりました is correct.

Elizabeth said:
One more thing....depending on the thought behind it, as you say,
could "食べた（がらなく）なるようになりました。fill in as a valid grammatical substitute here ?
(My educated hunch would be this puts it closer to "the family seemed to reach the point where they didn't want to eat together) whereas "なくなった"
is a more immediate falling off of the pleasure they once felt in eating together), yes ? not really ? no ?

Your interpretation is correct, but hmmm, 食べたがらなくなるようになりました does not sound right for me.
There are too many なる in the sentence, sort of redundant.
食べたがらない + なりました = 食べたがらなくなりました

I'm not sure if this is answering your question...
I hope that at least it makes sense.

The7thSamurai · 19 Jun 2006

Reading my first full book in Japanese, and attempting to translate it at the same time. It's a book about Napoleon, but I picked it up in the kids section of a bookshop so I think it's simple enough. Anyway, here's my translation of the first few sentences:

ヨーロッパの南に広がる地中海には、どこよりも明るい太陽（たいよう）が輝いています。
In the far reaching Mediterranean Sea of Southern Europe, the sun shines more brightly than anywhere else.

この海には、東南風の吹く季節になると、アフリカ大陸の大砂漠から、物凄い熱風が吹き寄せてきます。
At this sea, when the south-east wind's 'windy season' begins, an extremely hot wind from the African continent blows in.

すると、にわかに真夏のように暑くなって、岸沿に住む人達の体から、汗を奪い、のどをからからにしています。
Thereupon, suddenly it becomes as hot as mid-summer, sweat is drawn from the bodies of the people living along the coast, and their throats become extremely dry.

昔から、地中海の沿岸地方の人達は、この熱風のように、感情が激しいと言われています。
It is said that long ago, the people of this area had intense emotions, just like the hot winds.

Things that are confusing me:
1) 汗を奪い means something like "sweat is drawn (from the body)" but I can't understand why the verb isn't in the 'te' form? I often see verbs in this 'masu' form but I don't know why. Could somebody fill me in?
2) のどをからからにしています。 I don't understand this grammar structure. Why is it 'nodo wo shiteimasu'. Why is 'nodo' a direct object?
3) どこよりも明るい means 'brighter than anywhere else' right?
Cheers!

Elizabeth · 19 Jun 2006

undrentide said:
Yes, 食べたがらなくなりました is correct.
Your interpretation is correct, but hmmm, 食べたがらなくなるようになりました does not sound right for me.
There are too many なる in the sentence, sort of redundant.
食べたがらない + なりました = 食べたがらなくなりました
I'm not sure if this is answering your question...
I hope that at least it makes sense.

Yeah, I was wondering as I wrote if it wasn't 少しいくどい
食べたがらないようになりました ~~ does that make it more or less understandable ?
I was trying to find a way of comparing なくなりました with ないようになりました
because they seem very close but slightly different. :?

undrentide · 19 Jun 2006

Elizabeth said:
Yeah, I was wondering as I wrote if it wasn't 少しいくどい
食べたがらないようになりました ~~ does that make it more or less understandable ?
I was trying to find a way of comparing なくなりました with ないようになりました
because they seem very close but slightly different. :?

食べたがらないようになりました is perfect!

As for the difference between なく（なりました） and ないように（なりました）,
I do not see much... if anything, ないようになりました is slightly politer,
because it is more indirect compared with なくなりました.

It could be only me, though.

Fuumei · 19 Jun 2006

undrentide said:
Here "de" means something close to "among".
There are more than two aquaintances, so among those people, there's a person who like fishing...

Wow, I see. I've become to accustomed to the use of "no naka de". I don't think I ever remember learning this particular usage until now. That's really interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Thanks also to KrazyKat and Elizabeth. :
Oops, I didn't see at first that so many had responded. :emoji_flushed:

epigene · 19 Jun 2006

Bucko said:
ヨーロッパの南に広がる地中海には、どこよりも明るい太陽（たいよう）が輝いています。
In the far reaching Mediterranean Sea of Southern Europe, the sun shines more brightly than anywhere else.

It seems there's a lot of explaining to be done here, so I'll just pick the first one for now.
There is a problem in understanding the first part of the sentence.
In the phrase ヨーロッパの南に広がる地中海には , the subject is Mediterranean Sea and the verb "hirogaru," which basically means "to spread."
ヨーロッパの南に means that the sea is located south of Europe and not southern Europe.
The literal translation: In the Mediterranean Sea, which spreads [better choice may be "lies"] south of Europe,...

HTH!
Hope others chip in!

Glenn · 19 Jun 2006

Elizabeth said:
I wonder about "de" as a subject particle occasionally as well...

I don't think it's a subject particle ever. In the use in that sentence it's the same as no naka de, meaning "among." In the English version it's the same, "among my friends, there is..." and "friends" isn't the subject. At least that's always how I've understood it.

By the way, was kureru desu a typo?

Elizabeth · 19 Jun 2006

My explanation is more suitable for "watashi no shiriai ni"

And I should have phrased it more accurately "で" in conjunction with the subject particle は :
自分は日本語を習う事が出来ません。(It isn't possible for me to learn Japanese).
自分では日本語を習う事が出来ません。(I (am the one that) can't learn Japanese) implying some unknown others may be able to.

Glenn · 19 Jun 2006

Where did you run across that second sentence?

は isn't a subject particle, by the way.

[Edit] Oh yeah, if it's really the "it's my friend and..." type of で, then what about 私の知り合いではチェスが一番上手なのはジムです?

Elizabeth · 19 Jun 2006

Glenn said:
Where did you run across that second sentence?
は isn't a subject particle, by the way.
[Edit] Oh yeah, if it's really the "it's my friend and..." type of で, then what about 私の知り合いではチェスが一番上手なのはジムです?

OK, the topic particle....apologies for the sorry state of my illiterate grammar.
:sorry:
The second one was modified from an example I ran across again recently
given by Japanese member studyonline....if it's wrong someone please make the correction. I suppose 私では would make the same point as an acceptable replacement, in any event.

Glenn · 19 Jun 2006

Ah, I assume you're talking about this post. That's interesting; I don't recall ever seeing で（は）used that way, but I would say that that's probably a different usage (or a different で) of it than the one in the first example he gave, which is the usage in the sentence that Fuumei gave.

undrentide · 19 Jun 2006

Glenn said:
I don't think it's a subject particle ever. In the use in that sentence it's the same as no naka de, meaning "among." In the English version it's the same, "among my friends, there is..." and "friends" isn't the subject. At least that's always how I've understood it.

Maybe I should have given more clear explanation when I seconded Elizabeth san's post :

私の知り合いで釣りの好きな人
(1) a person who likes fishing among my acquaintances
Here で is a particle to indicate place (in a figurative sense)
私の知り合い（のうち）で釣りの好きな人
(2) a person who is my acquaintance and who likes fishing
Here で is not a particle, but a conjugated form of だ
私の知り合いで（かつ）釣りの好きな人

Glenn · 19 Jun 2006

Alright, but in the sentence posted by Fuumei it's the first one, right?

Elizabeth · 19 Jun 2006

Glenn said:
Ah, I assume you're talking about this post. That's interesting; I don't recall ever seeing で（は）used that way, but I would say that that's probably a different usage (or a different で) of it than the one in the first example he gave, which is the usage in the sentence that Fuumei gave.

The way he used 最近では to mean "within these days" or to emphasize a constraint on the time element I would say may not be similar to Fuumei's で
as "and" or だ, but it's getting late here and this is enough for today....

undrentide · 19 Jun 2006

Bucko said:
1) 汗を奪い means something like "sweat is drawn (from the body)" but I can't understand why the verb isn't in the 'te' form? I often see verbs in this 'masu' form but I don't know why. Could somebody fill me in?

Literal translation of 汗を奪い is taking away sweat (from the people's body).
Let me see the difference now.

汗を奪い、のどをからからにしています
汗を奪って、のどをからからにしています

Well, there are not huge difference between them, but the former is just listing up what kind of effects the hot climate causes while the latter is more like the heat draws sweat from the body (and then consequently) make people thirsty.

Bucko said:
2) のどをからからにしています。 I don't understand this grammar structure. Why is it 'nodo wo shiteimasu'. Why is 'nodo' a direct object?

It is not "nodo wo shiteimasu" but "nodo wo karakara ni suru" + "imasu"
Yes, in this sentence nodo is the direct object.
Literal translation is "(it) makes (people's) throat into very dry (condition)".

Bucko said:
3) どこよりも明るい means 'brighter than anywhere else' right?

Yes, your understanding is correct.

Glenn · 19 Jun 2006

Elizabeth said:
The way he used 最近では to mean "within these days" or to emphasize a constraint on the time element I would say may not be similar to Fuumei's で
as "and" or だ, but it's getting late here and this is enough for today....

I'm pretty sure that Fuumei's sentence didn't make use of the -te form of the copula, because it wouldn't make much sense that way: "(he) is my friend, and there's someone who like fishing..."

Also, see this:

undrentide said:
私の知り合いで釣りの好きな人
(1) a person who likes fishing among my acquaintances
Here で is a particle to indicate place (in a figurative sense)
私の知り合い（のうち）で釣りの好きな人

windcheater · 19 Jun 2006

no worries now

epigene · 19 Jun 2006

Bucko said:
昔から、地中海の沿岸地方の人達は、この熱風のように、感情が激しいと言われています。
It is said that long ago, the people of this area had intense emotions, just like the hot winds.

This is the part that remains to be explained.
"Mukashi kara" here does not mean "what happened long ago" but "since long ago." So, the people still are intensely emotional.

Elizabeth · 19 Jun 2006

Glenn said:
I'm pretty sure that Fuumei's sentence didn't make use of the -te form of the copula, because it wouldn't make much sense that way: "(he) is my friend, and there's someone who like fishing..."
Also, see this:

I am going by undrentide's latest post on the matter. And perhaps opinions will still differ.

Both are possible and correct, I think, but when considering the flow of the sentence (and thought behind it), he is my acquaintance and (=de) he likes fishing.. might be more appropriate.
My explanation is more suitable for "watashi no shiriai ni"

Glenn · 20 Jun 2006

I thought I was going by her last post on the matter:

Need a word or phrase translated? | Page 135 | Japan Forum

Elizabeth · 20 Jun 2006

Glenn said:
I thought I was going by her last post on the matter:

Need a word or phrase translated? | Page 135 | Japan Forum

Isn't that just giving the two possible alternatives ? Check the top of this page for what I was referring to. Sorry I don't have time to link it....:

Damicci · 20 Jun 2006

すみません質問があります。
今私は漫画よつば！というのを読み始めました。面白くて、ふりがなを使います。
今私は二番の本を始めます。タイトルは「ただ、ここにいるだけのしあわせ。」です。ちょっと分かるけど「の」の使い方が分かりません。
英語でI am happy just being hereでしょう？その訳は違いますか。

Need a word or phrase translated?

先輩

Japa'n vagyok

先輩

Japa'n vagyok

Master of the Universe

先輩

Japa'n vagyok

眼鏡が要る

相変わらず不束者です

一切皆苦

先輩

一切皆苦

先輩

一切皆苦

Japa'n vagyok

一切皆苦

先輩

Japa'n vagyok

一切皆苦

後輩

相変わらず不束者です

先輩

一切皆苦

先輩

先輩

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