GoldCoinLover
ๅพ่ผฉ
- 24 May 2004
- 1,046
- 12
Elizabeth said:
I thought dewa meant 'well', right? Hmm.
Elizabeth said:Hi, Kevin !
I'll try separating the words in hiragana this time maybe that will help.
It's a little advanced, but always something good to keep in mind.
ใงใใไป ใ (around now) ใใฎ ็ตใใ (the end) ใ (ga) ใใ ใใ
(finally) ่ฆใใฆ (can see) ใใ (came out) ใใใใใจๆใใพใใ(I think)
Demo ima ya sono owari ga youyaku miete kita to omoimasu.
Buntaro said:Elizabeth,
You have brought up an interesting question: Exactly what does "fluent" mean? For example, I have a Japanese guy I work with, and his English is excellent, but he is not fluent.
When I think of "fluent," I always think of my mother (of all people....) My mother was fluent in English, yet she was not an educated woman. (She never graduated from elementary school, typical for early last century.) She could not have any type of intellectual discussion on any intellectual topic, and she never used or understood high'falutin' vocabulary like "inter-stellar space" or tri-glyceride fatty acids" (words an educated person, but not an uneducated person, would be expected to know. Anybody remember Archie Bunker and the way he frequently slaughtered big words...?) My point is, as you said, a person can be fluent without knowing any of these 64-dollar words. This is also true of some grammar forms.
This, then raises the question of what makes my Japanese co-worker non-fluent? Even though his English is excellent, he does not know vocabulary and grammar that even Archie Bunker would have been expected to know. (The phrase "would have been expected" -- what I call past-future continuous perfect -- is a good example of the grammar that I am talking about.)
kimokawaii is someone wierd, but not to be hated for his/her sense of humor or their cute personalities.henpai said:Hiyas. I've been faced with yet another weird Japanese slang term, ใญใขใใใใ, and have no idea what to make of it. Does someone know what this word refers to?
I got the word from WWWJDIC: "่จ็ทด(P); ่จ้ฃ(iK) ใใใใใใ (n,vs) practice; practise; training." I figured it might work. But, er, clearly not.Glenn said:Uh... ่จ็ทดใใ means to train.
Hmm. My site's moderately informal, I suppose, so the first two options seem appropriate.Glenn said:You could use ่จชใญใ or ่จชๅใใ. I know of a site that counts visitors like Xๅนดไปฅๆฅใฎ่จชๅ่ , but that's pretty formal, I suppose. It depends on the mood you want to set.
That also sounds like a good idea. (From WWWJDIC: "ๆฏๅบฆ ใใพใใฉ] (n-adv,n-t) each time; common service-sector greeting.") ใใใใจใใGlenn said:I think this is one of those cases where you need to go for expressing the intent rather than the literal translation. I would go for something like ๆฏๅบฆใใใใจใใใใใพใ, which I believe is what they say when you leave a store.
This branches from my original question, but I had always thought that ใใใซ needed to be prefaced with ใฎ (i.e., ใฎใใใซ) for reasons of possession (e.g., ๅฝผใฎใใใซ, his sake). Was I incorrect or is this one of this omissions that natural language makes use of? ใใใใจใใNANGI said:I think ใ็งใฏๆฅๆฌ่ชใ"็ทด็ฟใใ"ใใใซใใฎใตใคใใซๆฅใพใ ใใ is natural.
WWWJDIC defines ้ใณ as "playing" but an example sentence, ใใคใงใ้ใณใซใใใฃใใใใ, is translated as "Come and see me any time you like." What is this other connotation of ้ใณ? It seems to be a parallel for "visitation." If so, are there any other nuances I should know about?NANGI said:ใใพใ้ใณใซๆฅใฆใใ ใใใญใ is friendly phrase. This phrase is used for a friend.
Thanks for the suggestion. It sounds quite appropriate as well.Elizabeth said:๏ผใใฒ๏ผใพใใ่ถใใใ ใใ also seems very commonly used for web sites.
Taking ใใใซ as it is defined as 'in order to' or 'for the purpose of,' there is no omission, it is coming after a verb in this case and anyway 'for the sake of' or 'because of' makes no sense in the original translation.This branches from my original question, but I had always thought that ใใใซ needed to be prefaced with ใฎ (i.e., ใฎใใใซ) for reasons of possession (e.g., ๅฝผใฎใใใซ, his sake). Was I incorrect or is this one of this omissions that natural language makes use of? ใใใใจใใ
Ah, I see. Many thanks, as always!Elizabeth said:Taking ใใใซ as it is defined as 'in order to' or 'for the purpose of,' there is no omission, it is coming after a verb in this case and anyway 'for the sake of' or 'because of' makes no sense in the original translation.
ใใใใใใจใฏๆใๅใซใ้ฃใใใฃใใDamicci said:The car is too large to fit/enter the garage.
ใFitใใฏๆฅๆฌ่ชใงๅใใใชใใ
็งใฎไพๆใฏใ่ปใฏใฌใฉใใธใซๅ ฅใใใจใๅคงใ้ใใพใใงใใใใ
็ฟป่จณใฏใ่ปใฏใฌใฉใใธใซๅ ฅใใใจใใงใใชใใใใๅคงใใใงใใใใฃใฆ่จใใพใใใ
ใใฎไพๆใซใฏใชใใงใใใใใใไฝฟใใพใใใๆๅณใฏไฝใงใใ๏ผ
ใใใใใใจใใใใใใฎๆๅณใฏๅใใงใใ๏ผใงใใ็ฟป่จณใฎไพๆใฏใพใ ใใๅใใใชใใ
ใใใงใใญใใใใจใใๅ่ชใฏไธ่ฌ็ใซใฏใใพใ่ใใพใใใใใใใใใฏใใใใใใๆฎ้ใงใใญใใงใใๅใซ่จใฃใๆงใซใๅๅพใฎๆใจใฎใใใใใซใใฃใฆ้ใใจใใใใพใใใใใฆใใใใใใจใใใใใซใฏใใใคใใใใใไฝฟใใพใใใไปใพใงใใใใใไฝใใฎใใใฃใจ่ฆใพใใใงใใใ
J44xm said:I got the word from WWWJDIC: "่จ็ทด(P); ่จ้ฃ(iK) ใใใใใใ (n,vs) practice; practise; training." I figured it might work. But, er, clearly not.
Mikawa Ossan said:ใใฎใพใพใ ใจใใๅคงใใใใฎๅฏพ่ฑกใฏ่ปใใใชใใฆใใใฌใฉใใธใซๅ ฅใใใจใใงใ่ปใฎๅคงใใใฏใใฎๆ็ซ ใซใฏ้ขไฟใชใใใ ใใญใใ ใใ้้ใฃใฆใใใใ ใ
Can't quite agree with the way you phrase this. I see/hear ้ ๏ผใใ) constantly, the most common usage being one that you give an example of. ๅฐใใ้ ใๅญฆ็ใฎ้ ใใขใกใชใซใซใใ้ , ใใฎ้ , ใใฎ้ , or what have you.Elizabeth said:ใใใงใใญใใใใจใใๅ่ชใฏไธ่ฌ็ใซใฏใใพใ่ใใพใใใใใใใใใฏใใใใใใๆฎ้ใงใใญใใงใใๅใซ่จใฃใๆงใซใๅๅพใฎๆใจใฎใใใใใซใใฃใฆ้ใใจใใใใพใใ
ใใใใใจใฏ้ทใๆ้ใฎๆ ใๆไปฃใ(ๅฐใใใใ)(broader time frame, era, epoch)ใซใคใใฆ่ฉฑใใฆใใๆใซไฝฟใใใใจๆใใพใใ
I think he was talking about Damicci's original sentence:Glenn said:Uh, I thought that "can't enter the garage" was the scope of ใใใ here, so it would be perfectly fine. That is, "it's so large that it can't enter the garage." Since ่ป is set off by ใฏ, it's marked as the theme of the sentence, and the rest of the sentence modifies ่ป. If we take out the adverbial phrase, we get ่ปใฏๅคงใใใงใ, and that certainly speaks to the size of the car.
For Damicci,Damicci said:็งใฎไพๆใฏใ่ปใฏใฌใฉใใธใซๅ ฅใใใจใๅคงใ้ใใพใใงใใใ
No, not extremely rare. I was trying to relate it to the exposure that Damicci would have had taking as a starting point that "koro" references a larger time span which wouldn't be as much in evidence in his everyday conversations or reading whatever as "goro" and didn't realize the opposite impression came off as strongly as it seems to have. It's hard to tell the pronunciation of course too without the hiragana, so thanks for the other examples !jt_ said:Can't quite agree with the way you phrase this. I see/hear ้ ๏ผใใ) constantly, the most common usage being one that you give an example of. ๅฐใใ้ ใๅญฆ็ใฎ้ ใใขใกใชใซใซใใ้ , ใใฎ้ , ใใฎ้ , or what have you.
Apologies if I'm misunderstanding your point, but it sounds like you're saying that ใใใใ is extremely rare in general.
As for pronunciation -- until I hear otherwise, I'm going to remain convinced that in the above usage, it's ใใใใ, and when attached to a time expression, it's ใใใใ. (With some exceptions, like fixed expressions such as ใใฎใใ๏ผใใฎ้ ๏ผ)
So here is what my gf says.jt_ said:I think he was talking about Damicci's original sentence:
For Damicci,
In case you're still confused about ใใใใใ in the example sentence, maybe you can think of it as describing _to what extent_ the car is big.
่ปใฏๅคงใใใงใใ --> "The car is big."
...how big is it?
ใฌใฌใผใธ(or ่ปๅบซ, read ใใใ๏ผใซๅ ฅใใชใใใใ --> "so big that it won't fit in the garage"
Put it together and get...
่ปใฏ่ปๅบซใซๅ ฅใใชใใใใๅคงใใใงใใ --> The car is so big that it won't fit in the garage.
The sentence reads kind of like "textbook" Japanese, but it's worth understanding the structure, I think. You may also see ใใปใฉใ used in place of ใใใ in these sorts of expressions.
ๆๆ ขใงใใชใใปใฉ็ใ --> It hurts so much that I can't stand it. (or "The pain is unbearable.")
Also, from your original example... You probably know this already, but you don't want ใใงใใ after ใๅคงใใใใพใใ... Also, the end should be ใใงใใใ, if indeed you mean it as "My original sentence was (...) _but_ the translation said..."
Hope this helps.
็งใฏ็ทด็ฟๆ็ซ ใไฝใใพใใใ
ๆใฏใ่ปใฏๅคงใใ้ใใพใใใใ่ปๅบซใซๅ ฅใใใจใใงใใชใใใงใใใ
ใงใใ่ชฐใใฏ็งใซใใใใไฝฟใฃใฆใชใใใจ่จใฃใใใชใใง๏ผ
Damian says:
ใใฎไบบใฏใใใใใปใใใใไฝฟใใใจ่จใฃใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใ่ปใฏๅคงใใ้ใใพใใใใ่ปๅบซใซๅ ฅใใใจใใงใใชใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใ่ปใฏๅคงใใ้ใใใฎใง่ปๅบซใซๅ ฅใใใจใใงใใชใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใใใใจๆใใพใ
Damian says:
ใงใใใใฎใงใใจใใใใใฏๅใ๏ผ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ๅฐใ้ใ
Damian says:
ใใใฃใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใ่ปใๅคงใใ้ใใใใ่ปๅบซใซๅ ฅใใใจใใงใใชใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใงใ่ฏใใจๆใใพใ
Damian says:
ใงใใ่ปใฎๅคงใใใฏๅฏพ่ฑกใงใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใใฎๆใฎๅ ดๅ่ปใซๅฏพใใฆ่ปๅบซใฏๅฐใใ
Damian says:
ใใใใ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใ ใใใ่ปใๅคงใ้ใใฆ่ปๅบซใซๅ ฅใใใใจใๅบๆฅใพใใ
Damian says:
ใใใฃใ
Damian says:
ใใใใจใBabe
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใใใฃใ๏ผ
Damian says:
ใใใ
Damian says:
็ฌ
้็ตตๅญ says:
ใใใ
Considering ๅผใฃๆปใ means "to scratch" I think you are correct in your assumption. Maybe you couldn't find it in goo because the ๆปใ part was in hiragana?J C said:Hi,
I read this phrase (ๅผใฃใใใใใช้ณ) on a Japanese news web-site. I can't find it in WWWJDIC, goo or a couple of other online dictionaries. From the context, I'm guessing it means a scratching or scraping sound or something similar. Does anyone have a idea what it means and why it wouldn't be in WWWJDIC or goo's dictionary?
Thanks,
Jonathan