My first good luck flag

[Kuli]

Hey guys, I am new here and I wanted to show you this flag that I just recently purchased. It came with a translation, and I was just curious about #6. I'm assuming this is one of those idioms that doesn't translate well? Would love to know what you think.

 

[Toritoribe]

There is no problem in the translation. The problem is in the original itself. It's odd because the original Japanese sentence is odd. Sorry to inform this, but your flag is an obvious fake. Lots of signatures/sentences were written by the same hand, and a loan word such like "No.1" was usually not written on these flags.

 

[Kuli]

There is no problem in the translation. The problem is in the original itself. It's odd because the original Japanese sentence is odd. Sorry to inform this, but your flag is an obvious fake. Lots of signatures/sentences were written by the same hand, and a loan word such like "No.1" was usually not written on these flags.

It's odd you say that because I had this looked at by a very well respected expert on these flags, and he told me it is authentic. There are some nice personalized details that weren't translated in the original picture, such as a rooster crowing inside joke between the 2 people. The drawn eye glasses is a nice touch aswell.

 

[mdchachi]

It's odd you say that because I had this looked at by a very well respected expert on these flags, and he told me it is authentic. There are some nice personalized details that weren't translated in the original picture, such as a rooster crowing inside joke between the 2 people. The drawn eye glasses is a nice touch aswell.

I'm guessing the expert can't actually read/write Japanese at a native level? If not, his expertise is limited.

 

[Toritoribe]

#5
森常治 is Mori Jōji or Tsuneharu. The translator missed the first kanji of the given name.

#6
ニハトリ is Niwatori, not Nihatori. These sentences are written in historical kana orthography. (And probably that's why the translator couldn't translate やうに（＝ように）, i.e., as if/like.)

#8
It's 岩瀬正次郎 Iwase Seijirō or Shōjirō, not Dejirō. The translator misread the first kanji of the given name as hiragana で. They didn't know how odd the name で次郎 was.

#9
The given name is 圓治 Enji, not Keiji.

 

[Majestic]

#3 is not "Wish" joining the military, but "Congratulations".
etc...

 

[Kuli]

Thanks for the help so far, guys. When I bought the flag it came with a basic translation. I then had the expert verify that the flag was legit. He did not do the translation, he simply confirmed that it was authentic and then told me about the line about the crowing rooster joke that wasn't included with the translation.

 

[Toritoribe]

The phrase you are referring to is いづれ行く身のコケコッコー written above #10. It's also odd even as a joke.
Didn't he mention a fact that lots of signatures/sentences were written by the same hand, as I already pointed out? Plus, there are many wrongly-written kanji and very-bad-at-writting kana on the flag.

 

[Trehocs]

Toritoribe and Majestic are both great experts and their opinion is very valuable. But this bring up a question. Please, see the picture attached, it´s a flag returned to a family by Obon society so it should be genuine, but aren´t there many signatures written by the same hand? My question is, are maybe they returning fake flags? I would like to know your opinion.

 

[Majestic]

Everything has to be taken in context. Is it an old flag from a known address or a known school or factory, and are there verifiable people on the flag (a principal, a mayor, a factory owner). If so, and if all the language on the flag is proper and correct, then it doesn't matter so much of all the writing is the same - maybe some clerk wrote it on behalf of all the people.

If there is no verifiable location, date, or other identifying mark, and if the language is clumsy or anachronistic, or is peppered with Chinese-style reduction of the kanji, and it is all written with the same brush, one has to be very, very suspicious. In this case, the flag has a couple of red flags, plus it came with a suspicious translation, so the gut reaction is to assume it is a fraud.

Note it is just a gut reaction - the flag could indeed be authentic. But without deep research or access to military records, all we can give is our gut reactions.

 

[mdchachi]

Toritoribe and Majestic are both great experts and their opinion is very valuable. But this bring up a question. Please, see the picture attached, it´s a flag returned to a family by Obon society so it should be genuine, but aren´t there many signatures written by the same hand? My question is, are maybe they returning fake flags? I would like to know your opinion.

You could try sending a picture of your flag to the Obon society and say you're interested in returning it and then see what they say.

It's not just the same writing, there's this unusual "extra" stuff besides the usual names. There are three sections of this calligraphy-like writing -- I can't tell if it's actual calligraphy or just somebody trying to write that way without knowing what they're doing. toritoribe could say for sure. In at least three sections, there's a repeated mention of "nihatori-gumi" (ナハトリ組 / ニワトリ組). And one even includes a literal "cock-a-doodle-doo." Maybe the guy and his buddies were part of the "fighting roosters" on their school baseball team but it's all very suspicious. Just the fact that it veers from normal flags is suspicious. The Japanese typically follow prescribed patterns and putting stories or anecdotes on this kind of flag is also suspicious.

There's also this use of exclamation points which are not used in traditional Japanese and looks very odd in this context. Not to mention the eye glasses.

I always hesitate to comment on the writing given my lack of expertise but, looking closer, this part looks like gibberish to me. Look at the repeated nonsensical (to my eyes) writing.

 

[Trehocs]

Absolutely agree with you both. Thanks for sharing your opinion!!