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Learning Japanese through Translation

That's the part I wanted to bring up next actually. Those are the translation examples provided:

A. けんかはやめにしろ
Stop quarreling.

B. もうたばこはやめにした
I have given up smoking.

C. 今日はこの辺でやめにしよう
So much for today.／Let's call it a day.／Let's stop here for today.

D. 財政上の理由で，その企画はやめになった
The project was abandoned [given up] for financial reasons.

E. こんなばかげたことは早くやめになるといいが
I hope this absurd business will be over quickly.

F. 雨のため試合はやめになった
The game was rained out.

Again, my question remain. I don't see the connection of:
私は このアパートにする。
I've decided on this apartment.
This relates to the definition given in the dictionary:


私は このアパートにする。
I've decided on this apartment.

This makes perfect sense based on the definition provided by the dictionary.

Other examples given in the dictionary which make perfect sense:
私はステーキにします。

Compare those examples from the dictionary with the A. to F. examples provided by this link. I don't see how they relate to each other which in turns is preventing me from drawing conclusions about the にする construction.

In other words, I can easily see how:
私は このアパートにする。and 私はステーキにします。relate.

However, I don't see how:
A. けんかはやめにしろ and 私はステーキにします。relate

Like I said:
"Q2. How does it relate to the explanation mentioned A Basic Dictionary of Japanese Grammar?"
 
It matches the pattern. It's just that the written translations are more natural from an English perspective.

  • けんかはやめにしろ
  • [Decide to] stop quarreling.
  • もうたばこはやめにした
  • I [decided to] give up smoking.
  • 今日はこの辺でやめにしよう
  • Let's [decide to] stop here for today.
  • 財政上の理由で，その企画はやめになった
  • こんなばかげたことは早くやめになるといい
  • 雨のため試合はやめになった
    These are different pattern using になる not にする so are out of scope here.
 
Great! So the に+する construction is used to express a decision of whatever precedes the に be it a gerund like in this example:
その企画はやめになった。
or just a noun like in this example:
私は このアパートにする。
______________________________________________________________________
Here's another excerpt. This time around, I'll explain my stream of thought as I tackle this one.

(not that it follows the preceding one I just did).
Transcription:
悪いけど こっちも商売なんだ。
あんたの 当たらない占いなんか
いっぱいの酒代にも なりゃしないよ。

I. First thing I do is identify and understand the kanji compounds used in the excerpt, in this case:
商売: (n.) Business, trade.
酒代: (n.) Alcohol expenses.

II. Then I check the remaining kanji and their respective おくりがな.
悪い: i-adjective: bad.
占いなんか：expression: (n.) Fortune telling. Followed here by なんか which means ''things like...''
当たらない: Negative form of 当たる(v.) 五段: to be hit/struck.
商売なんだ: I'm not sure about this. Could be何だ. I'm still researching this one.

III. Identify ひらがな written "entities":
こっち：this way
あんたの：(pr.) you
いっぱい：(v.) to have a drink
けど：(conj.) however
しない：negative inflection of する。Causes an action not to take place .

IV. Identify the particles of the excerpt:
酒代にも: Indicating that something is surpassing the norm (the dictionary of Japanese Particles (DJP)).
なりしないよ：exclamation.
なりしない: DJP describes 4 different purposes to なり. The most plausible English equivalent are: ''as soon as'' and ''a... or something''.
いっぱいの酒代にも：I'm having trouble with this one too. It means いっぱい modifies 酒代にも in some way but I'm not sure how yet.
 
2)
なんだ is the colloquial form of なのだ.

3)
あんた is a second personal pronoun "you", but あんたの is not.
いっぱい is not a verb.

4)
Look it more carefully. It's なりゃしない, not なりしない.

Again, I don't recommend learning Japanese in this way.
 
Thank you!
Regarding:

1. こっちも商売なんだ。
I was just reading A Guide to Japanese Grammar just now and happened to come across ーなんだ。It's in the part about the particle の used as an explanation. On p.67 it says that:
''The 「の」particle attached [...] can also convey an explanatory tone to your sentence."
Also:
"To express state-of-being, when the 「の」particle is used this explanatory tone, we need to add 「な」. An example is also given:
ジムなのだ。
Which might go back to what you said:
"なんだ is the colloquial form of なのだ."
Am I on the right path in saying that
商売なんだ/なのだ is what's being talked about in the book? In other words, "It's business" with an explanatory tone? Or am I wrong?

あんた is a second personal pronoun "you", but あんたの is not.
Click to expand...
2. Interesting.
Dictionary doesn't come up with anything and neither does jisho.org.
So I'm thinking it's just a matter of your as opposed to you, i.e. you+possessive 「の」。

いっぱい is not a verb.
Click to expand...
3. Hmm...
You're right. いっぱやる is. It seemed to fit into the context so I mistakenly jumped to conclusion on this one.
The two possibilities I have are:
a) Amount necessary to fill a container
b) one defeat
I find that neither fit with:
いっぱいの酒代にも
Could you provide a hint without telling me outright what it means so I can find it on my own?

Look it more carefully. It's なりゃしない, not なりしない.
Click to expand...
4. I thought that little や was another aspect of colloquialism again. Couldn't find anything in the dictionary, the beginner grammar dictionary or the particles dictionaries.
Meanwhile, while I was studying (translating is one thing I'm doing to learn Japanese, just so you know) and I was looking this up in the Contents section couldn't find anything about that either. Google translation comes up with: "I will not".

So I google it and came across this.
"なりゃ/なりゃあ is a colloquial contracted form of なれば and なりは:"
Am I on the right path?
 
1)
Yes, it's the explanatory の/ん, and な is the attributive form of the copula だ.
You need to interpret what the explanatory tone expresses, i.e, what is the speaker's connotation from the context, though.

2)
Right. あんたの means "your" as a set.
You need to look up each of あんた and の separately since this is not a single word.

3)
Zizka said:
I find that neither fit with:
いっぱいの酒代にも
Click to expand...
This is wrong.

4)
Zizka said:
"なりゃ/なりゃあ is a colloquial contracted form of なれば and なりは:"
Am I on the right path?
Click to expand...
It's the latter here.
 
Ok so regarding: いっぱいの酒代にも

You said this is wrong. I'm guessing you are referring to my interpretation of いっぱい? As it turns out, I missed a very important element in the definition of that word. What is weird, however, is that it's the French translation that helped me, not the English one.

English:
amount necessary to fill a container (e.g. cupful, spoonful, etc.), drink (usu. alcoholic)
French:
un verre de
This being said, what's unusual about this word is that it can also be an adjective, in this case... drunk.

Am I right about the interpretation of the particle にも here?
いっぱいの酒代にも
Indicating that something is surpassing the norm
Because this might be what is setting me off in the wrong direction.

What I'm having trouble determining here is the relationship between いっぱいの酒代にも
It doesn't seem to make sense to me. This can either be because:
a) I misunderstand the function of にも here.
b) I haven't yet figured out the exact signification of いっぱい in this context.

In A Guide to Japanese Grammar, 「の」is described as: "...it can be used to connect one or more nouns."

So logically, I can eliminate the meaning of "drunk" for いっぱい here since it's an adjective and not a noun. So I end up with a drink for いっぱい, a noun.

BUT, on p.65, it says:
"We can essentially treat adjectives and verbs just like nouns by adding the 「の」particle to it." Which means drunk is still possible as the potential meaning of いっぱい.

See here, what I find difficult is sorting through the possible functions of 「の」here to identify which one is the right one.
「の」: as possessive
「の」: as explanation tone
「の」: to turn adjectives/verbs into nouns
「の」: indicate the relative location/direction of the first noun.
「の」: establishes a relationship between two nouns (of/by/with equivalent)
「の」: establishes the second noun is in the same category as the first noun
「の」: the first noun describes the state in which the second noun exists or has entered
Etc...

Is there a way for me to determine the function of grammatical particles or does it just come with experience?

I'll keep looking. I've tried several monolingual Japanese dictionaries to get more definitions but I'm still puzzled about this.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I got 当たる wrong here too. I think it means: to be right on the money (of a prediction, criticism, etc.) as opposed to being hit. It would make a lot more sense when talking about a fortune teller.
 
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Your understanding about いっぱい is still wrong. いっぱい is not an adjective, either. You got the wrong definition. (There is another interpretation that はい is a counter, though.)

The core of にもなりゃしない is になる. You shouldn't think にも as a single particle. It would be extremely hard to look up the explanation about the expressions used there from dictionaries, though (and that's why I said that your way of leaning was incredibly inefficient).

Yes for the meaning of 当たる, but 占い is fortune telling, not fortune teller.
 
(There is another interpretation that はい is a counter, though.)
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I was about to say: "Don't you mean ぱい instead of はい?" but I've read the chapter about counters today so I realized that it'd be written いっぱい in this context.

Could it be that いっぱい is actually 一杯 then as in one drink?

にもなりゃしない is になる
Click to expand...
If にも isn't to be considered as a particle, why is it that they put a space (in-game) after it? I know in theory there wouldn't be a space there. I've noticed in some games, the text will be parsed with spaces however to facilitate understanding.

For instance, separating 悪いけど[ ]こっちも商売なんだ。certainly makes the sentence easier to understand. Wouldn't the same be said for:
いっぱいの酒代にも なりゃしないよ。
I'm not saying you're wrong, of course, I'm just eager to know.
 
Yes, the kanji is 一杯, but 一杯 can mean "a lot/much", too.
Check again how to say the number of things; how many apples you have, for in stance. That's the one you are looking for regarding の. (Textbooks teaches this usage in the early stage of learning, by the way.)

にも is actually two particles there, as same as へも, をも, とも, からも, までも, and so on.

Spaces are usually not inserted in Japanese sentences, and there is no strict rule where spaces or commas put. The followings are all acceptable.
いっぱいの酒代にもなりゃしないよ。
いっぱいの 酒代にも なりゃしないよ。
いっぱいの 酒代にも なりゃ しないよ。
いっぱい の 酒代 にも なりゃ しない よ。

Your way of translating reminds me of a proverb 木を見て森を見ない You cannot see the wood for the trees. What is the core of the sentence あんたの当たらない占いなんかいっぱいの酒代にもなりゃしないよ。? What is the subject, target or the main verb? That's the point you should start with.
 
About Textbooks:
About the textbook approach. I wasn't going to discuss it because I didn't want the thread to be derailed about how languages are learned but since you're (general you here) bringing it up frequently (which is not criticism, just an observation), I figured it'd write a few lines here to clear up some misconceptions/foregone conclusion. I think it'd allow to move past this on focus on the linguistic aspects of the thread.

"I don't use any textbooks and simply rely on translation to learn."
This one is important because it's inaccurate and only a partial representation of my learning methodology. I think we'd agree that a textbook teaches the various aspects of a language going from more fundamental aspects to more advanced ones.

I mentioned before having purchased and reading/studying A Guide to Japanese Grammar. I assumed it was very well known resource on the internet considering it's available for free. Note that it follows a textbook format with the typical theoretical and practical cyclic approach to each chapter. In other words something is explained and then some exercises are ready to practice what was just explained. I've read the book once and will start my second reading today.

I hope this clears things up regarding me not using textbooks and therefore being criticized as being either inefficient in my methodology or dismissed entirely based on the presumption that I don't use a textbook. I'll copy/paste this in the first message of the thread so that everyone is on the same page on this one.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks toritoribe for your patience and perseverance in trying to help me, a beginner, with your explanations. I really do appreciate your quick and informative reply.


See, in my textbook, there's no mention that 一杯 can mean "a lot" although the dictionary does mention it. It does make lot more sense in this context.

Regarding apples, it'd probably be 個, "a counter for small, round objects". I don't understand how it's related to the 「の」I have here however as we've determined that 一杯 here means a lot and is not meant to be understood as a counter unit.

If it's any easier, feel free to refer to me to a specific lesson in Genki I&II, it's available on scribd. Looking at the glossary at the end, I couldn't find a grammatical reference to 「の」just:
ノート、－ので、のど、のどかかわく。。。etc...

Nothing that relates to:
いっぱいの酒代にも なりゃしないよ。

Spaces are usually not inserted in Japanese sentences, and there is no strict rule where spaces or commas put.
Click to expand...
True, but I assume that the reason the space is there is to make it easier for the less experienced reader to identify にも either as a single particle entity or as a combination of two subsequent grammatical particles: i.e.: 「に」+ 「も」. That's likely why there's a space after けど, の, etc...

にも is actually two particles there, as same as へも, をも, とも, からも, までも, and so on.
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This clarifies it. This means that it's a combination of one of the grammatical meaning of the first particle 「に」 in conjunction with one of the meaning of the second particle 「も」.

That's very useful. I'll work on this and try to give you answers.
 
I already explained why we repeatedly recommend reading textbooks in the last half of this post. The point is Read through a good textbook like Genki, and learn the basics along the order the textbook gives before trying to translate those kinds of sentences. For instance, people might be able to find a chapter regarding the noun usage of the -masu stem of verbs in on-line or even paper textbooks, and read it directly without reading the previous chapters, but it's impossible to understand the explanation if they don't know about the -masu stem or even how verbs conjugate.

I didn't say いっぱい/一杯 meant "a lot/much" in that sentence at all (and actually, it's not). I just pointed out a fact that the kanji version 一杯 can be an adverb, too.

Here's the reason why I mentioned "how many apples" thing regarding の. It does relate to いっぱいの酒代.
Counters I

Incidentally, いっぱい の 酒代 に も is also acceptable.
 
In my message #34 I said:
Could it be that いっぱい is actually 一杯 then as in one drink?
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Then you said it could mean "a lot" too. I thought you were hinting that's what it meant here.

What I meant is that「杯」is a counter word just like 「個」 is but for things like cups.

「いっぱい」 is therefore the equivalent of 「一杯」。

「いっぱいの酒代にも なりゃしないよ。」
「の」is a noun connector between 「いっぱ」and「酒代」.
「にも」is a combination of particles which describes what precedes it:
「いっぱいの酒代にも」
My question for now is:
How can 「の」establish a relationship between there? In what way? I've read about that in my textbook (and everything before it).
It says on p.64-65:
It can indicate a possession but not only that. We can also treat adjectives and verbs like nouns by adding the 「の」particle to it. It can't be that here because neither いっぱい nor 「酒代」are adjectives or verbs.

So what's the function of 「の」there then?
 
Zizka said:
So what's the function of 「の」there then?
Click to expand...
Two example sentences copy/pasted directly from the page Toritoribe-san linked to you above:

36. 私はこの2台のPCを繋つなぎます。
Watashi wa kono nidai no piishii wo tsunagimasu.
I'm going to connect these two PCs.

47. 一杯のご飯
Ippai no gohan
A bowl of food/rice

I don't mean to be rude, but this is exactly why Toritoribe-san (and almost anyone knowledgable about Japanese) is going to tell you to get a textbook and work through it. You might think you've found your own way of learning Japanese that's perfect for you, but you're far from the first person who's tried to get by on free resources and reference materials. (Incidentally, you keep calling Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese a "textbook," but it really isn't one. It's a free reference material put together by someone with no particular certifications to teach Japanese. That's not to say it's completely worthless, but it's hardly a substitute for a structured Japanese course.)

In almost all cases, learners using your method have some basic knowledge of how various particles and verb forms work (and sometimes even more complex grammatical forms), but they haven't taken the time to really internalize the fundamentals of Japanese sentence structure, leaving them no choice but to go through this arduous "decoding" process for even relatively simple sentences. Your commitment to trying to figure this out is admirable, but please understand you're making this far more difficult on yourself than it needs to be by trying to reinvent the wheel.

There's nothing wrong with making native materials like video games a part of your learning process (doing things you enjoy in Japanese is a great way to reinforce what you've learned), but unless you supplement it with some kind of focused study, you're just going to be spinning your wheels 99% of the time. To make an analogy, it's like trying to learn to play the piano by picking up a song you like with some really difficult sheet music, and just hunting and pecking at the keys (all along asking the people around you, "Do I have this right? How about now? How about now?"). You might kind of feel like you're getting somewhere, but at the end of the day, if you really want to get good, you're going to have to suck it up and practice basic scales, chords, and fingering. It might not be as glamorous or fun, but it's part of the learning process that you shouldn't try to shortcut if actual, meaningful proficiency is your ultimate goal.
 
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Hello jt_
I just re-read every message and could find no link leading to the examples you've provided.

Regardless, although I do understand the 「の」function based on those examples, I still don't understand how 「の」works in this specific context. It just doesn't seem to fit.
「いっぱいの酒代にも」
As for the rest of your reply, I understand your point of view. I just disagree with you and I'll explain to you why if you're willing to read a different point of view. If not, dismiss the rest of this message. Either way, I don't expect any agreement. I know I'll just be repeated the same thing as before but hey, here goes anyway.

I believe any question is worthwhile when it comes to learning languages. I don't deserve any answers, that much is certain, but I believe I have the right to ask without being told: check a textbook and learn the fundamentals. I think that's not necessarily rude but not certainly not helpful. If anything can be understood with books (as they theoretically can) forums have no purposes at all. You could tell anyone: look it up. Also, what the fundamentals of a language is something essentially subjective.

In my opinion, a question about the basics is as important (if not more so) than a more difficult question. To dismiss basic questions would be akin to elitism, which is fine. Some forums are like that and fill out a certain niche.

I realize I probably just come across as being stubborn. I've learned two second languages already which I have mastered to the same level as my first language. I didn't use a single textbook to learn both those languages.

If someone were to ask me a question about a translation, I would focus on an easier aspect of the sentence and work up from there. It doesn't matter if you stray from the original excerpt as long as learning take place.

There's plenty of data about the effectiveness of using authentic material to learn a language:


I've been polite and civil in my attempts at understanding. I don't expect people to help out unless I follow the method they want me to follow. Regardless, suppose I were to go through Genki and ask a question about it here, what would people say? Check out the text book? Ok, I'll help you out because you're doing the textbook now? I mean, it started with exposure to authentic text not being effective to me having to use a specific textbook (not Tae Kim's book).

I'd like if someone took the time to teach me things based on the material I bring without forcing to use the method they've used. I think it's a fair request considering it can certainly be ignored. In fact, I'd rather be ignored then coerced to use a method which I know doesn't work for me.

(I'm not going to debate this further, that's what I meant by having the thread derailed).
 
Zizka said:
Hello jt_
I just re-read every message and could find no link leading to the examples you've provided.
Click to expand...

It's in the post directly above your post where you say you can't figure out how の can establish a relationship between いっぱい (or 一杯） and 酒代.

Toritoribe said:
Here's the reason why I mentioned "how many apples" thing regarding の. It does relate to いっぱいの酒代.
Counters I
Click to expand...

As you can see, Toritoribe-san provided the link specifically to help you understand this concept.


It's quantifying it, just like in the examples I pulled from Toritoribe-san's link.
It shouldn't be all that difficult to understand in context, which makes me wonder if you're struggling with other parts of the sentence.

What if we strip things down a bit, and make it:
いっぱい(一杯)の酒代にもならない。

What would be your best effort at translating this alone?

I have plenty to say regarding everything else you wrote, but I think I'll take that to a private message.
 
Regarding the rest, feel free to PM, I'll read whatever you have to say. I likely won't debate however, just so you know if you expect to start a back and forth exchange about this.

Here's an example of 「の」which I do understand, it's from Paper Mario.

「西エリアのモンテオーネから
飛行船の チケットを ゲットできたら
すぐに ウーロン街ヘ むかうのだぜ」
飛行船：「普通名詞」Airship
チケット: 「外来語」a ticket
Therefore:
飛行船の チケット: an airship ticket

西エリアのモンテオーネから
飛行船の チケットを ゲットできたら
I'd also infer the following: You can get an airship ticket from Monteone in the west area.

I just used the explanation from A Guide to Japanese Grammar and a dictionary for 飛行船。So I can understand this.

As you can see, Toritoribe-san provided the link specifically to help you understand this concept.
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Yes but I still don't understand how this works:
「いっぱいの酒代にも」
One cup of drinking expenses? It doesn't make sense to me the way 飛行船のチケット makes sense.
「いっぱい(一杯)の酒代にもならない。」
ならない means can't help doing something but it doesn't make me understand how the の there works.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to understand in context, which makes me wonder if you're struggling with other parts of the sentence.
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I don't know if it should or shouldn't but I do find it difficult to understand.

As for the rest of the sentence, it's not giving me as much trouble (or at least I think so, I might be way off of my understanding of the rest too).
 
I am not looking to "debate" or start a back-and-forth exchange, but I still will probably PM you, because I strongly believe that you could be learning the language in a more efficient and productive manner. (Note that this is the only reason people like Toritoribe-san and myself are suggesting what we are.)

Zizka said:
Yes but I still don't understand how this works:
「いっぱいの酒代にも」
One cup of drinking expenses? It doesn't make sense to me the way 飛行船のチケット makes sense.
Click to expand...

You seem to understand the most basic attributive/qualifying function of の, but in actual usage, it's quite a bit more broad/flexible than this. Look at these examples.


Notice how ひと握りの砂 can be used to mean "a handful of sand" (i.e. "sand in a quantity that amounts to [or can be described as] a single handful").

Can you extrapolate what いっぱい（一杯）の酒代 might mean now?

Zizka said:
ならない means can't help doing something
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This is only one possible meaning of ならない, and only in very specific circumstances. What you're seeing here is a much more fundamental usage of ～になる that has nothing to do with not being able to help doing something. If you're not grasping this, that explains why you're having trouble with the sentence.

I don't have my copy of the DBJG on hand, but I'm quite certain that this usage of になる is explained in there (same for the attributive usage of の, for that matter).
 
At the risk of further beating the poor dead horse, the fact that you think ならない in this sentence means "can't help doing something" is a perfect example of why people are telling you your current study method is flawed at best.

No one here is begrudging you your right to ask questions (or to supplement your learning with video games, which is something I did too when I was starting out). We're just frustrated at seeing you so obviously put the cart before the horse, and trying to impress upon you that learning Japanese doesn't have to be as difficult as you're making it. Anyhow, I'll reserve any future comments about this for private message.
 
This is what I meant by taking elements of the original excerpt and making connections with external references and therefore very useful to me. It doesn't give me the answer but it nudges me in the right direction.


Drinks that are paid for? No, really. In the example of the handful, the connection makes sense to me. Here it doesn't. いっぱい/一杯 is one cup/drink. How can it relate to drinking money. I don't see it from the 「の」particle that links them. Not in the way the examples you've provided do.

Every single one of those examples make perfect sense from a 「の」perspective.

It's the 酒代 that's bugging me I think. I looked it up in the same website you've provided the examples from:
〔酒の代金〕money for drinking [a drink] 持っていた金はみな酒代になった｜He spent all his money on drink [liquor].／He drank up all the money ...

I don't have my copy of the DBJG on hand, but I'm quite certain that this usage of になる is explained in there (same for the attributive usage of の, for that matter).
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You mean A Guide to Japense Grammar? 「の」is explained and I read it but I still don't understand the part I'm talking about.

As for 「になる」, it's discussed in there as well at 4.7.
4.7.1: for nouns and adjectives
4.7.2.: for i-adjectives
4.7.3: with verbs

「いっぱい(一杯)の酒代にもならない。」
酒代 is 「普通名詞」so, logically, this leaves 4.7.1 in.

彼の日本語が上手になった。
His Japanese has become skillful.
私は医者になった。
I became a doctor.

ならない here expresses the negative of なる.
At the risk of further beating the poor dead horse, the fact that you think ならない in this sentence means "can't help doing something" is a perfect example of why people are telling you your current study method is flawed at best.
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Yet thanks to your correction I learned something. Mistakes, if encouraged and allowed, are probably the best way to learn just about anything. I'd go as far as saying that they're inherently part of any language learning.
 
DBJG is one of the books you said you have purchased:



...
There is a type of learning resource that satisfies your desire to study "real world" Japanese, but will be less painstaking than the method you are using now: a book with side-by-side Japanese and English text of the same content. Many such books are available.
Using such a book will help you gain the knack for interpreting Japanese. Without such a knack, you will be doing a lot of spinning your wheels.
 
Hello joadbres,
Yes, you're right, I've bought.

Regarding the method you describe, I'm thinking you mean something like this:



I just went on youtube to find a let's play of the game to find the translation. I don't need to purchase the game twice then.
 
Translations that were created for reading tend to rephrase the original, which makes them unhelpful for a beginning learner. Take the screenshots you posted, for example: you won't find any mention of free drinks in the Japanese line.

joadbres probably means something like this: Amazon.com: Read Real Japanese Fiction: Short Stories by Contemporary Writers (9781568365299): Michael Emmerich: Books
That is, a collection of translations that were created for learning (= much closer to the source text), along with explanations on relevant grammar and idioms.
 
Ah ok, right. After being suggested to buy books here, I've just spent about 200$ worth of books just now so I'll wait a bit for this one. It does seem like a good idea however. I might give in before my next paycheck.

I'll admit DQ8's level of text is too high for me at the moment. I'm saying this because I've been translating Paper Mario on the side and I can honestly say I can understand most of what's written.

Once I'm done understanding the last excerpt I've started here, I'll move on to Paper Mario. I'd say it's beginner level.
 
Zizka said:
I've learned two second languages already which I have mastered to the same level as my first language. I didn't use a single textbook to learn both those languages.
Click to expand...
A member said exactly the same thing previously when I recommended using a textbook in my reply in the thread where she tried to translate a Japanese lyrics. She said she had learned Germany in the same way (translating lyrics), so I pointed out that Japanese was quite different both in grammar and vocabulary from Indo-European languages she would be familiar with. She was skeptical, but here's what she said in another tread after reading Genki.

Btw @Toritoribe I never got to thank you for bringing Genki into my life. If I hadn't bought it when you told me to, I probably would still be running around in circles guessing every second word. Now I sucessfully watched 1 episode of an anime and it wasn't all that terribly difficult.

We can explain for those who have basic knowledge of Japanese grammar, but, as I wrote previously, we have to write a whole chapter of a textbook to explain each grammatical issue if they don't have it.

Anyway, I would usually explain あんたの当たらない占いなんかいっぱいの酒代にもなりゃしないよ。 like this;
The core of the sentence is 占いなんか酒代にならない.
あんたの当たらない modifies 占い.
いっぱいの modifies 酒代.
も is for emphasis here, meaning "even".
なりゃしない is a colloquial contraction of なりはしない. "The -masu stem of verb + はしない" is an emphasized negative form, so なりはしない is almost the same as ならない in meaning.
Here's the definition of なる.
なるを英語で訳す - goo辞書 英和和英


As for いっぱいの酒代, it's actually [いっぱいの酒]代, i.e, いっぱいの酒の代金, as same as 一食の食事代, 一冊の本代 or 一足の靴代. Speaking strictly, いっぱい分の酒代 is more grammatical, but those expressions are quite commonly used in conversations.

Finally, just for confirmation, ルイネロさんもうやめにしないかい？ is said by the barman right before these lines? If so, he is saying "Won't you stop talking (about fortune telling)?", not "Won't you stop drinking?". "Seems to fit the context" doesn't always mean "the interpretation is correct".
 
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