Labels: Asian or Oriental?

[bossel]

Oriental or Asian?
Well, I suppose if you talk about races it is best to use scientific names such as mongoloid, Europid/caucasoid, negroid a.s.o.

If you talk of ethnic origin, you can use the nation's, tribes or similar name.
Asian or Oriental doesn't make much difference to me. Asian means "someone from Asia", Oriental "someone from the East, where the sun rises".

BTW, in Germany, the term "Orientale" implies someone from the Near/Middle East, not East Asia. These implications are always dependent on the usage.

 

[EscaFlowne]

It depends on where you are. While growing up in the U.S. I've noticed that most Oriental girls went out of their way to date white guys. There was definitely some self-hatred going on regarding one's own race. One gal once said that dating an Oriental guy is almost like dating your own brother.

On the other hand, if you're in Japan a white guy may not always get 20 points right away for being white. Perhaps because most women in Japan don't speak such good English and it would be too much of a hassle to date a guy who didn;t speak Japanese too well.

If you noticed, I don't use the term "Asian" to describe the Mongoloid race. I use the old-fashioned "Oriental." To me "Asian" is improper since there are people of different races living in Asia and Chinese, Japanese and Koreans have no right to claim that they;re the only Asians. Also, "Asian" only refers to a geographical location rather than a racial category and therefore it perpetuates the stereotype of Orientals in the U.S. as foreignors ("Where are you from?" "Do you speak any English?"). Many of us who are U.S. citizens wnat to be considered and treated as legitimate Americans. If you called a white person a "European", he would most likely respond, "I'm NOT a European, I'm an American." To refer to such a person as European is to treat him as a foreignor and that is improper. Likewise, I am NOT an Asian. I am an American of the Oriental race.

BTW, many blacks do not want to be called "African-American" and many Indians do not like to be called "Native-Americans".

Not many African-American don't want to be called that. they do or just black. I know I'm right on this and can speak on it. all these scientific terms erks me....see you later.

 

[bossel]

The scientific terms may not sound nice, but at least (to me), there are no associations or implications other than the biological content. But, then again, if used widely, these terms would very probably adopt diverse implications.
German saying: "No matter how you do it, you do it wrong."

 

[destiny]

That's exactly the right saying for this situation. *nods*

 

[Gaki]

If you noticed, I don't use the term "Asian" to describe the Mongoloid race. I use the old-fashioned "Oriental." To me "Asian" is improper since there are people of different races living in Asia and Chinese, Japanese and Koreans have no right to claim that they;re the only Asians. Also, "Asian" only refers to a geographical location rather than a racial category and therefore it perpetuates the stereotype of Orientals in the U.S. as foreignors ("Where are you from?" "Do you speak any English?").

I don't like the term Oriental, it's an incorrect term to describe us.
In the UK we are Oriental and Indians / Bengalis / Pakistanis are Asians...
How in the world they worked that out, I don't know...
Considering :
1. China basically is more than half of the area of Asia.
2. The Chinese population is basically half the population of Asia.
Did we lose some sort of war or something...

 

[Mayura]

I dont like the term Oriental, it's an incorrect term to describe us.
In UK we are Oriental and Indians / Bengalis / Pakistanis are Asians...

How in the world they worked that out, i dont know...

Considering :

1. China basically is more than half of the area of Asia.
2. The Chinese population is basically half the population of Asia.

Did we lose some sort of war or something....

guess that's true.. I don't know how they worked that out either...
no, I don't think the Chinese lost any war or so...
but your points are kinda right!

 

[Golgo_13]

I dont like the term Oriental, it's an incorrect term to describe us.
In UK we are Oriental and Indians / Bengalis / Pakistanis are Asians...

How in the world they worked that out, i dont know...

Considering :

1. China basically is more than half of the area of Asia.
2. The Chinese population is basically half the population of Asia.

Did we lose some sort of war or something....

So do you want all Oriental people to be called "Chinese"? When I was a kid most stupid kids thought all Orientals were Chinese.
I get your point. However, "Asian" is wholly inappropriate to be used as a racial category since people of different races live in Asia. You cannot use "American" as a race (even though some ignorant people do) because America is made up of different races. If you use a geographical term like "Asia" to refer to a race, all other races would have to be called by the continent they originate in, e.g., whites=Europeans, blacks=Africans, American Indians=North Americans, etc.

We have always been referred to as Orientals among the English-speaking world. No one ever complained until the last decade. If Oriental is so wrong, I guess the only other "correct" option is "Mongoloid". Would you like that? Doesn't that almost sound like we all suffer from Down's Syndrome?

Let's stick with the lesser of all evils and be Orientals.
BTW, I once wrote a piece in the Rafu Shimpo, a Los Angeles-area newspaper for the Japanese-American community regarding this issue. I received much positive feedback from readers who agreed with me that they want to be called Oriental, not Asian, but were afraid to speak out.

 

[Gaki]

So do you want all Oriental people to be called "Chinese"? When I was a kid most stupid kids thought all Orientals were Chinese.

I get your point. However, "Asian" is wholly inappropriate to be used as a racial category since people of different races live in Asia. You cannot use "American" as a race (even though some ignorant people do) because America is made up of different races. If you use a geographical term like "Asia" to refer to a race, all other races would have to be called by the continent they originate in, e.g., whites=Europeans, blacks=Africans, American Indians=North Americans, etc.

We have always been referred to as Orientals among the English-speaking world. No one ever complained until the last decade. If Oriental is so wrong, I guess the only other "correct" option is "Mongoloid". Would you like that? Doesn't that almost sound like we all suffer from Down's Syndrome?

Let's stick with the lesser of all evils and be Orientals.

BTW, I once wrote a piece in the Rafu Shimpo, a Los Angeles-area newspaper for the Japanese-American community regarding this issue. I received many positive feedback from readers who agreed with me that they want to be called Oriental, not Asian, but were afraid to speak out.

I didn't mean all "Orientals" should be called Chinese

What I was saying was that I didn't like the fact that "Orientals" were thrown into a whole new group, we do have our place in Asia and I think it's wrong that we were thrown out of that group.

I was speaking with my Japanese friend once, and she didn't even know what to consider an "Oriental" person because she's never encountered this type of segregation.
It would probably be the same for a Chinese person since in Chinese we refer to ourselves as Asian.

Although I do understand what you are saying about the term Asian being too broad, normally if someone asks I'll say I'm "Oriental" to avoid confusion, I still don't like how we were thrown out of the Asian group. =P

 

[Golgo_13]

What i was saying was that i didnt like the fact that "Orientals" were thrown into a whole new group, we do have our place in Asia and i think it's wrong that we were thrown out of that group.

I was speaking with my Japanese friend once, and she didnt even know what to consider an "Oriental" person because she's never encountered this type of segregation.

i still dont like how we were thrown out of the Asian group. =P

You're still missing the point. It's not even about a "GROUP." You use the term "Asian group" to avoid implying race, but that's exactly what this is about.
I know people don't like to discuss race, but let's be honest, people are of different races. There's nothing wrong with having different racial categories. It's only wrong to discriminate based on race.
The Chinese and the Indians both live in Asia, true. But are they of the same race? No. To say that everyone living in Asia is of the same race called "Asian" makes no sense at all.
To refer to the people who are of the Mongoloid race, e.g., Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, the word "Oriental" has been used as the less technical term, much like "white" and "black" have been used instead of Caucasoid or Negroid.
However, there is no official term used term to refer to the race of the aforementioned Indians/Bengalis/Pakistanis people, so "Asian" has been used for them (only in the UK, not in the US). Perhaps there should be a separate category for them, but that's how it is.
Nuff sed.

 

[Mandylion]

Most people who don't like that term (oriental) doesn't like being one, so they try to avoid being an Oriental by using a different term. It's the same thing as fat people. They hate the word "fat" so much that they try to avoid being fat by using words such as "large", "full-figured" and "Rubenesque."

Nuff sed.

I'm afraid that is a bit too broad for me to be comfortable letting slip by. I don't think "most people" who don't want to be called oriental hate their ethnicity. I think that is a flawed conclusion to jump to simply when someone says "don't call me oriental." As our German friends said, a lot of it goes towards the context and the social environment the label gets used (as to if a phrase or word is insulting). You are okay with being identified as oriental, but to many, it is a derogatory term. Just because you don't like how some people choose to classify you doesn't mean you are loaded with self-hate (and the same goes for fat people too, the difference is that calling someone "fat" has many fewer shades of gray on the insult-o-meter than calling someone "oriental." The words may evoke similar reactions and emotions, but I think the root causes and associations of such is different to a great extent).


Just my two cents/yen/wampum - M

 

[jeisan]

I've split this thread as these posts should have their own thread.
on a side note, oriental is an even broader term than Asian as it simply means eastern...

 

[Mandylion]

Thanks, @jeisan!

 

[Gaki]

To refer to the people who are of the Mongoloid race, e.g., Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, the word "Oriental" has been used as the less technical term, much like "white" and "black" have been used instead of Caucasoid or Negroid.

You know back in the day the less technical term was "Yellow". Do you know why? Because we (Chinese people) whilst we were building the railroads, stuck to ourselves and tried to stay out of trouble, we were called "Yellow" meaning cowardly. We don't stick these labels on ourselves, so I don't see why we should use them.

Like it's been mentioned the term "Oriental" is as broad as saying "Asian". Filipinos are "Oriental" too, but they don't look that similar to Japanese / Korean / Chinese.

 

[Elizabeth]

You're still missing the point. It's not even about a "GROUP." You use the term "Asian group" to avoid implying race, but that's exactly what this is about.

I know people don't like to discuss race, but let's be honest, people are of different races. There's nothing wrong with having different racial categories. It's only wrong to discriminate based on race.

The Chinese and the Indians both live in Asia, true. But are they of the same race? No. To say that everyone living in Asia is of the same race called "Asian" makes no sense at all.

I may be missing something, but I have never considered "Asian" as a racial term and actually, in English, the "ian" suffix implies only nationality. Oriental is technically broader as well, originally I believe covering Eastern Europe (Eastern third of the old Roman Empire), to the Near East/North Africa and then the Asian continent proper.

 

[Iron Chef]

When I hear "Oriental," I think of either a rug or instant cup noodles...

 

[Elizabeth]

I actually think of Saudi Arabia or Iran first per the story of the Biblical Wise Men from the East or travel packages to the mysterious Orient.....but then there is that recent movement by many original inhabitants of this country to be called "Indian" again rather than "Native American" even though they obviously have no direct connection to the country. So I just try to stay in step with the latest incarnations and don't really try to reason anymore from there. It must just be one of those things you can't really understand until you've lived it.

 

[Mayura]

why is this getting so complicated??!

 

[teardrop]

Hmm... Mayura ... if you are really interested, try reading Edward Said's book on Orientalism. I guess you will get a clearer picture of the concept then...

 

[Mayura]

Don't they both mean the same??
I mean, Asian = ppl from Asia
oriental = ppl from the east
or am I wrong??

 

[jeisan]

Kinda but oriental refers to anyone/anything from the eastern hemisphere while Asian would be anyone/anything from Asia...

 

[Eisuke]

I think East Asian sounds better than Oriental.

 

[Mayura]

.... but... then asia would be more acurrate, wouldn't it?

 

[bossel]

Accuracy is something hard to achieve if you want to talk about races without scientific terminology. Actually, in day-to-day conversation I use the term East-Asian when I refer to Chinese, Japanese et al., for too many people don't even know the scientific terms (just like Golgo said before: mongoloid = Down-syndrome???).


Labels are almost always inaccurate because they generalize. East-Asian isn't really exact either, just thinking of the Ainu in Japan, & where to draw the line between E-, SE- & NE-Asia.

But, hell, as long as people know what I'm talking about...

 

[Mayura]

ah... but c'mon, Asia is a continent, isn't it, so why can't just everybody in it or maybe from there be called like that??? x.x

 

[bossel]

Mayura, of course you can call every Asian Asian, but the question is, what the one you talk to understands when hearing it.
It's not really very specific,with so many different peoples, ethnicities & cultures in Asia.