Just starting reading, some sentence questions

[patroclus]

I'm starting reading http://web.archive.org/web/20060427033811/http://www.nis.atr.jp/~ray/stories/momotarou.html
And although I understand most of the first sentences, i did not study the exact structure yet. for example.

おじいさん が 山（やま） へ 木（き） を きり に いけば、

I know
base 2 verb + ni + iku/kuru
means go to do (verb) or come to do "verb"
but...
いけば ? Is it Ike (base 4 of iku) + ba (conditional)? does not make sense to me..

And the other sentence...
おばあさん は 川（かわ） へ せんたく に でかけます

this time we have base 3 verb + ni + verb... and the verb is not iku or kuru.
I never studied this before. How does
base 3 verb + ni + verb
structure work??

Thank you!

 

[Mike Cash]

In this case, think of the えば as meaning "when" instead of "if".

I'd try to help more, but all that "base 2" "base 3" crap means nothing to me.

 

[Glenn]

If by "base" you mean "group," then for Group I verbs drop u and add e to form the ba form.

Group III refers to the two irregular verbs, kuru and suru, and there is no Group III verb in that second sentence. せんたく (洗濯) is what's referred to as a verbal noun by some, that is, it's made a verb by adding する. でかける (出掛ける) means to go out, so it's saying that the old woman went out to the river to do laundry. So the purpose of going out is to do laundry, and that can be expressed either with せんたく(を) しに or せんたくに plus でかける. In this case they went with the latter.

 

[KrazyKat]

base 1 - nai stem
base 2 - masu stem
base 3 - dictionary
etc. etc.

 

[patroclus]

Yes, I meant what KrazyKat said.

base 1 is nai form but without nai.
for example, kaeru -> kaeranai -> keara

base 2 is masu form without masu
for example, kaeru -> kaerimasu -> kaeri

sorry.. clearer now?

 

[Glenn]

Yes, it is. That's new to me, though. It would be nice if we could decide on one set of terminology to talk about this stuff.

Anyway, I hope what I wrote above answered your question, if in a roundabout way.

 

[JimmySeal]

Yes, it is. That's new to me, though. It would be nice if we could decide on one set of terminology to talk about this stuff.

I've got just what you need. Bam!

base 1 - mizenkei 未然形 - 歩か-, 食べ-
base 2 - ren'youkei 連用形 - 歩き-, 歩い-, 食べ-
base 3 - shushikei, rentaikei - 終止形/連体形 歩く, 食べる
base 4 - kateikei 仮定形 - 歩け, 食べ

Where'd you find that base 2 base 4 stuff anyway? I've never seen it before.

 

[Glenn]

I'm wondering where that came from too. I've only seen the Japanese terms for them (as you've listed... well, minus 命令形 ) and things like Vmasu or Vneg, etc. Is this a new pedagogical tool?

 

[KrazyKat]

Its from timwerx.net

 

[patroclus]

Yes, that's the web I learnt about base verbs. I find it more easy than mizenkei, ren'youkei,...

anyway, going back to the sentences:

おじいさん が 山（やま） へ 木（き） を きり に いけば

I should treat いけば as iku verb in kateikei? form (ike) + ba. And should not take the -ba subfix as "if", but as "when" (I didn't know it could mean "when")

おばあさん は 川（かわ） へ せんたく に でかけます

せんたく is a sure verb, so adding ni and iku or kuru, would mean "go to wash.." or "come to wash..".
But if I'm right, when using verbs expressing movement, the thing before "ni" expresses the objetive of the movement, so this time would mean "go out to do laundry".

Did I get it?

 

[Glenn]

Yeah, you got it.

 

[patroclus]

ある日（ひ）、 おばあさん が 川 で せんたく を して いたら
It happened one day, while the old woman was washing clothes at the river,

I don't recognize "shite itara"..
I would have said something like:

ある日（ひ）、 おばあさん が 川 で せんたく しながら
using nagara...

ひろって たべたら、
She picked it up and ate it and,

ひろって comes from 拾う, pickup. I suppose -te form is to give it continuity with "eat", but... たべたら ?
does it come from 食べる? (tabeta + ra, that is used to make conditionals, as with tabere+ba or tabe+nara? )

again, should I have to take this conditional as "when" instead of "if"?
It confuses me, as I see both meanings "if" and "when" ambiguous..

 

[Glenn]

I think it's pretty safe to say here that since the story is recounting past events they're all going to mean "when."

I would think that せんたくを して いたら would mean "after she had finished doing laundry..." but that may be being a bit too picky.

ひろって たべたら is like "when she picked it up and ate it..." It does indeed come from tabe + ta + ra.

Just for your reference, なら is added to the dictionary form of the verb (or 終止形, or base 3, or "banana," whatever (sorry, I just felt really taken aback at what seemed to be an(other) arbitrary label for these things)), not any other form. And traditionally speaking, there should be a の stuck in between them, and there should probably be a ば at the end, but that's pretty stilted, formal stuff.

 

[Mike Cash]

This is a wonderful example of how children's stories aren't necessarily any easier for foreigners to read.

 

[patroclus]

Mike Cash, that's what i'm getting aware of... but don't know were to start reading simple things. I first thought on children stories,

 

[JimmySeal]

Nagara is used to express two ongoing actions that happen concurrently, such as "whistle while you work." Since the peach floating up is instantaneous, -tara is the appropriate form.

And children's stories are probably harder to read than young adult prose. Probably best to read something with substance rather than stretching your brain to try to understand peach boy stories. You're not likely to have an immediate need for most of the vocabulary in it, so it's not very likely to stick and you'll be left with nothing.

 

[patroclus]

JimmySeal, so what does really mean "shite itara"?
Glenn said that sentences could probably mean "after doing..",
I suppose "itara" comes from past iru (ita) + ra for conditional"if" /"when" meaning, but I don't really understand the construction

おばあさん が 川 で せんたく を して いたら

why suru verbs are written as
"sentaku suru"
and other times like in this example
"sentaku wo suru"...

 

[KrazyKat]

because sentaku is a noun. Some nouns like benkyou, and sentaku etc if you add suru to them they become verbs.

to learn tara, think of it as 'when'

I actually think that the base system helps to learn the verb conjugations since its easier to see how they follow the vowels on the syllabary. However, If everybody just used the same system and for (r-drop, yodan, group 3) it would all be a lot easier. Once you know the japanese words for them, its probably best to use that.

I don't know why people are always looking for things to read. There should be enough in your textbook. If not get another textbook, or something like 'basic connections'. I never tried to read anything until I was most of the way through JFPB3, and had finished 'colloquial japanese'.

 

[Elizabeth]

JimmySeal, so what does really mean "shite itara"?
Glenn said that sentences could probably mean "after doing..",
I suppose "itara" comes from past iru (ita) + ra for conditional"if" /"when" meaning, but I don't really understand the construction

It isn't 'after' in this case given that "shite iru" is "while doing" or "in the process of/during." If you gave the rest of the sentence under discussion it might help a lot...

 

[Mike Cash]

Mike Cash, that's what i'm getting aware of... but don't know were to start reading simple things. I first thought on children stories,

That has been a problem for every serious student of Japanese. Many people independently arrive at the idea of using children's stories, thinking the language structures used will be simpler. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as you have discovered.

The only real "benefit" offered by children's stories is that there is little or no kanji to slow down a learner who hasn't advanced very far with kanji yet. The lack of spacing in Japanese unfortunately tends to destroy this advantage as the learner spends a lot of time trying to decide where one word ends and another word begins. (Even kanji-laden text has this problem, but the more advanced learner has the advantage of 1)experience and 2) a larger vocabulary).

I would suggest something like 4-panel comics (such as the popular "Kobo-chan", appearing daily in the Yomiuri Shinbun and published in collected form as well) which are rich with contextual clues, short, humorous, and often have furigana present to aid reading and looking up vocabulary.

 

[patroclus]

Elizabeth:
ある日（ひ）、 おばあさん が 川 で せんたく を して いたら

KrazyKat:
so, waht would be the difference between this structures:
"sentaku suru"
"sentaku wo suru"

Mike Cash:
Yes, sure I need to get more vocabulary, and go further with kanji (actually, I know about 200, but I'm not much experienced, I know kun reading, most of on-readings, and only few composed words, but this task is quite hard).

 

[KrazyKat]

Not much. Its kind of like 'washing' and 'doing the washing'。
を洗濯する Sounds fine but
を洗濯をする Is wrong just like 'doing the washing the clothes' vs 'washing the clothes'.
by the way,

ある日（ひ）、 おばあさん が 川 で せんたく を して いたら
is still only part of a sentence. Here is the passage in question:

ある日（ひ）、 おばあさん が
川 で せんたく を して いたら、
つんぶらこ つんぶらこ
もも が ながれて きました。 ひろって
たべたら、 なんとも おいしくて
ほっぺた が おちそう。

 

[Mike Cash]

Mike Cash:
Yes, sure I need to get more vocabulary, and go further with kanji (actually, I know about 200, but I'm not much experienced, I know kun reading, most of on-readings, and only few composed words, but this task is quite hard).

You're right; it is hard. But you're doing well, I think.

The lack of good introductory reading material for foreign learners of Japanese is unfortunate. It's sort of like passing through a very heavy gate, with each entrant thinking "Man....somebody ought to oil those damned hinges." but with no one ever actually doing anything about it once they themselves are inside.

 

[Mukade]

'X ーたら + Past Tense Y' would convey the meaning of 'When X happened, Y occurred.'

Keep in mind, though, that this formation can only express uncontrollable consequences. So, you could use it to say 'When I read the explanation, I understood,' but not 'When I went to Japan, I studied Japanese.'

○説明を読んだら、分かった。
×日本へ行ったら、日本語を勉強した。

If you look at the uses of たら in this story, it should follow this logic. For example:

おばあさん が川 で せんたく を して いたら、
つんぶらこ つんぶらこもも が ながれて きました。
When the old lady went to do laundry at the river,
a peach came bobbing along.

ひろってたべたら、
なんとも おいしくてほっぺた が おちそう。
When she picked it up and ate it,
it was quite delicious.

Note that in both sentences, the second phrase is an uncontrollable result.

 

[Glenn]

This formation can only represent uncontrollable events when you're talking about the past, but it's fine if you're talking about the future.

この本を読んだら、貸してあげるよ。
Both actions are volitional and the sentence is grammatical. But

*この本を読んだら、弟に貸してやった。
This is not grammtical, because both actions are volitional and they took place in the past.

In general there are three characteristics of S1 -tara S2:

1) S2 happens after S1 is completed.

2) When this pattern is used to refer to past events, there cannot be self-controllable timing between the action or event represented by S1 and that represented by S2.

3) Owing to 2), S2 often represents an unexpected or surprising event.

Source: The Structure of the Japanese Language by Susumu Kuno