Just Double Checking

emptybento · 16 Mar 2007

I've only learned the very basics of Japanese, just things like hiragana/katakana, conjugating nouns, and particles such as「は、が」。This is why I wanted to ask a few questions, to set myself straight.

Firstly, would a sentence like this: これは犬が可愛いです。Be considered acceptable? (I wrote it to mean: This dog is cute [polite].) If not could you explain why? I'm worried that identifying "this" as a dog and then going on to describe the dog as "identifying as" cute might somehow be more complicated than I've thought it out to be.

I also wanted to ask: is thinking of the が particle as meaning the phrase "identifies as" incorrect? Could you give an example where it would be incorrect if so?

Thank you so much for those who assist, and those who just read -- seriously just considering my problems is more help than you can imagine, not to mention it's encouraging.

(Edit: Thirdly, が as a particle is only used when asking or answering a question, correct? If not, can someone provide an example? -- If you cannot tell by now, I learn best by example.)

Glenn · 16 Mar 2007

emptybento said:
Firstly, would a sentence like this: これは犬が可愛いです。Be considered acceptable?

No. This sentence doesn't make any sense as far as I'm aware. For your intended meaning you need to use この犬は可愛いです. これ is a demonstrative pronoun; you need the demonstrative adjective -- この. これ is like "this" whereas この is like "this..." That is, これ acts like a noun on its own, but この always modifies a noun, so it must be followed by a noun, or a word that acts as one.

emptybento said:
I also wanted to ask: is thinking of the が particle as meaning the phrase "identifies as" incorrect?

Yes.

emptybento said:
Could you give an example where it would be incorrect if so?

Just about any sentence with it. It generally marks subjects, and doesn't have any overt meaning, really. Where did you get that "identifies as" interpretation? And where would that make any sense?

emptybento · 16 Mar 2007

*Blushes Like Mad* Perhaps I should stick to more basic sentences, I'm obviously not cut out for complicated things.

I understand -- I hope! -- my misinterpretation when it came to これ vs この。

However when it comes to how I view the particle が I can't seem to understand what you mean. An example sentence: 足が痛い。To me this sentence says: Foot "identifies as" hurt. = [My] foot is hurt. Is this wrong, or will thinking this way become a hindrance later on? How do you interpret the same sentence?

I understand that が is not a word, nor does it actually mean "identifies as", but substituting that phrase in place of が makes it easier for me.

(Note: When I wrote the sentence "this dog is cute

" I meant it in response to a question asking what is cute. Maybe I should have mentioned this? *Blush Again*)

Glenn · 16 Mar 2007

emptybento said:
However when it comes to how I view the particle が I can't seem to understand what you mean. An example sentence: 足が痛い。To me this sentence says: Foot "identifies as" hurt. = [My] foot is hurt. Is this wrong, or will thinking this way become a hindrance later on? How do you interpret the same sentence?

I think more like "foot (subj) hurt" = "my foot hurts." I think. It's kind of hard at this point for me to start breaking it down.

emptybento said:
I understand that が is not a word, nor does it actually mean "identifies as", but substuting that phrase in place of が makes it easier for me.

Well, the status of が as a word or not isn't really relevant (it's argued both ways), but I think that yes, it definitely will hurt to think of it that way. But maybe that's just because it doesn't make any sense to me.

emptybento said:
(Note: When I wrote the sentence "this dog is cute
" I meant it in response to a question asking what is cute. Maybe I should have mentioned this? *Blush Again*)

Yes, that is important, as the answer to that question would be この犬が可愛いです. が can also serve to focus attention on what comes before it, so you need to use it after the part of a sentence that's the answer to a question (if that answer is a subject*). You could also just answer この犬が, but it seems that the point of your exercise is to make complete sentences.

*If the answer is an object, you'd use を. E.g., 「何を食べましたか。」「魚を食べました。」

If the answer is source, you'd use から. E.g., 「どこから来ましたか。」「アメリカから来ました。」

Etc.

JimmySeal · 16 Mar 2007

When an adjective serves as the predicate, the most logical interpretation would be that the concept of "to be" is built into the adjective, so:

[犬が][可愛い]
[dog][is cute]

not:
X[犬][が][可愛い]
X[dog][is][cute]

I do suggest that you stick to more basic things and not try to infer ways of expressing things you haven't seen yet.

There are (very limited) contexts where これは犬が可愛いです。 would make sense, but it would never mean "This dog is cute."

Glenn · 16 Mar 2007

Sorry to drag this OT, emptybento, but I'm curious.

What contexts would it make sense? The only thing I can think of would be something like これは、これは！犬が可愛いです（ねえ）！ But even that doesn't really work because of the general nature of 犬 and the use of が to mark it, making it more general ("My, my! A dog is cute!" or something like that). Or maybe if it was an answer to "what's cute?" it could mean something like "well, well! Dogs are cute!" But I'm not sure that これは has that usage in the first place, or if anyone would ever say that. So, what situations were you thinking of?

emptybento · 16 Mar 2007

JimmySeal said:
not:
X[犬][が][可愛い]
X[dog][is][cute]

Hmm, I wasn't ever thinking of the sentence in this manner, more like so:

[犬が][可愛い]
[dog "identifies as"][cute]

I only added "is" into the final sentence to make it sound natural in English -- again I most likely should be more clear in how I am viewing a sentence, but I'm not sure it even makes sense to me. *Hides Face*

EDIT:

Glenn said:
Or maybe if it was an answer to "what's cute?"

This is the situation I was thinking of (as if it would ever really happen!):

Person A: 何方が可愛いですか？
Person B: この犬が可愛いです。

Glenn · 16 Mar 2007

Well, like Jimmy said, 可愛い is more like "to be cute" than "cute," in which case you would just have to conjugate "to be" to its proper form in English. Would it throw you off too much to start thinking of が as something that marks subjects? Every time you see or hear it, just think "ah, what came before must be the subject!" I know it seems like a pain in the neck, but it's a lot closer to what's going on than "identifies as," and I would imagine it would help you actually understand what's going on better.

emptybento · 16 Mar 2007

Glenn said:
Would it throw you off too much to start thinking of が as something that marks subjects? Every time you see or hear it, just think "ah, what came before must be the subject!"

No it wouldn't throw me off at all! In fact, in hindsight (of course!) it seems a much better way to look at it. For some reason (despite thinking of は in this way) I just didn't exactly think of が as a subject marker ... I don't know why; it is a subject marker, but until you made the statement quoted above I just didn't ... get it? *Is Slow*

I was thinking of が as a subject marker, just in a very round about way.

Glenn · 16 Mar 2007

emptybento said:
Thirdly, が as a particle is only used when asking or answering a question, correct? If not, can someone provide an example?

No, it's not just used when answering questions. Lots of times it could be seen as pre-emptively answering a question, though. This is getting into a sticky area, though, one I'm sure you'll enjoy learning about your entire Japanese-learning life. But putting that aside:

高田が来た。
"Takada's here." (lit. "Takada came." I guess "Takada showed up" could be a plausible translation too, but that's probably closer to 高田が現れた)

足が痛い。
"My leg hurts." (To borrow your example)

あれが海岸だ。
"That's the coast."

emptybento said:
For some reason (despite thinking of は in this way) I just didn't exactly think of が as a subject marker...

I don't want to throw you off too much here, but は is the topic marker. It's different than が. You may realize that already, but it's good to separate them so that you don't confuse the two.

JimmySeal · 16 Mar 2007

Glenn said:
Sorry to drag this OT, emptybento, but I'm curious.

What contexts would it make sense? The only thing I can think of would be something like これは、これは！犬が可愛いです（ねえ）！ But even that doesn't really work because of the general nature of 犬 and the use of が to mark it, making it more general ("My, my! A dog is cute!" or something like that). Or maybe if it was an answer to "what's cute?" it could mean something like "well, well! Dogs are cute!" But I'm not sure that これは has that usage in the first place, or if anyone would ever say that. So, what situations were you thinking of?

You hold up an issue of Dog Fancy or the Dog of the Month Calendar, point to it and say, "これは犬が可愛い。"

This also illustrates how the word followed by は often has no grammatical relation to anything else in the sentence and though it often does mark a subject, that is not its purpose.

Glenn · 16 Mar 2007

That doesn't feel right to me, though. I'm guessing you're thinking of something like 象は鼻が長い, but これは犬が可愛い doesn't seem to be the same. I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my head around how that would work.

JimmySeal · 16 Mar 2007

Maybe it's a little contrived but I think it's right. It would probably be a little more natural to use a noun instead of これ

この雑誌、犬が可愛いい～！

But I think either one would pass.

I think this exchange makes sense:
-可愛い犬の写真が入った雑誌がほしいなあ。
-(hands over a magazine)これは犬が可愛いよ。

Glenn · 16 Mar 2007

[Edit] Nevermind. That seems more acceptable, but I still had to think about it. I still would like to hear a native speaker's opinion.

emptybento · 16 Mar 2007

To interject～～～

"高田が現れた。" Takada sounds like a magician!

Being serious though -- I love the examples you choose because I can visualize the situations perfectly and why the questions would be answered pre-emptively! Thank you! I'm not sure I would ever remember myself to use が in these situations, but when someone else did I would know why. (Perhaps with practice I'll remember these situational things.)

Glenn said:
I don't want to throw you off too much here, but は is the topic marker. It's different than が. You may realize that already, but it's good to separate them so that you don't confuse the two.

*Nods* Yes, I know that は is the topic marker, and different than が, which identifies a subject. It's the fact that they are so different that I wanted to think of が in such a different manner. (Further confirmation is never discouraged when it comes to me! God knows I need it!)

Supervin · 17 Mar 2007

JimmySeal said:
I think this exchange makes sense:
-可愛い犬の写真が入った雑誌がほしいなあ。
-(hands over a magazine)これは犬が可愛いよ。

The 雑誌 and 写真 context makes the phrase work.

Also, the situation would likely be where the person chooses the magazine out of a pile before handing it over to other person: 'the dogs in this one are cute.'

Cue · 18 Mar 2007

@Glenn
Yeah, JimmySeal's example is a good one.

Also, suppose you are looking at 2 pictures.
One of the pics has Konishi Manami and a dog on it, and the other one has Cue and a dog.
You say "Oh, she looks cute" looking at the pic of Manami.
Then, you look at the other pic and think, "Aw, this one, er..the dog is cute.(It's the dog that is cute, not Cue".)

Sometimes, like, when you compare two things, you can make two subjects in one sentence, "Kore wa, Manami ga kawaii. Demo, kocchi wa, inu ga kawaii."
In this context, you could say, "Kore wa, inu ga kawaii."
Make any sense? ^^;

By the way, welcome back Glenn, I'm so glad you're back!

Cue

leonmarino · 18 Mar 2007

Cue said:
Also, suppose you are looking at 2 pictures.
One of the pics has Konishi Manami and a dog on it, and the other one has Cue and a dog.
You say "Oh, she looks cute" looking at the pic of Manami.
Then, you look at the other pic and think, "Aw, this one, er..the dog is cute.(It's the dog that is cute, not Cue".)

This must be the funniest example I have read in ages!! Thanks for making me laugh!!

Glenn · 18 Mar 2007

Cue said:
@Glenn
Yeah, JimmySeal's example is a good one.

Also, suppose you are looking at 2 pictures.
One of the pics has Konishi Manami and a dog on it, and the other one has Cue and a dog.
You say "Oh, she looks cute" looking at the pic of Manami.
Then, you look at the other pic and think, "Aw, this one, er..the dog is cute.(It's the dog that is cute, not Cue".)

Sometimes, like, when you compare two things, you can make two subjects in one sentence, "Kore wa, Manami ga kawaii. Demo, kocchi wa, inu ga kawaii."
In this context, you could say, "Kore wa, inu ga kawaii."
Make any sense? ^^;

By the way, welcome back Glenn, I'm so glad you're back!

Cue

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, and the example you chose was hilarious! Should we take this to mean that you won't be posting your pic in the picture thread?

By the way, thanks.

Just Double Checking

emptybento

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Glenn

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emptybento

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Glenn

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JimmySeal

Tubthumper

Glenn

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emptybento

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Glenn

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emptybento

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Glenn

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JimmySeal

Tubthumper

Glenn

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JimmySeal

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Glenn

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emptybento

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Supervin

先輩

Cue

今北産業

leonmarino

Back

Glenn

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