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Jlpt N1 grammar

Toritoribe

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It totally differs depending on the expression.
 

bentenmusume

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He means that your question is too vague to have any meaningful answer.

There are countless grammar patterns tested on the JLPT N1. Some are quite common to the point that you'll see/hear them almost every day. Others may be more obscure and primarily only encountered in more formal written texts. The only way to answer your question would be to do a comprehensive frequency analysis for literally every grammar point covered by the test, and nobody's going to do that because...what's the point?

If you need JLPT N1 certification for something, or if you don't but still want to master the language to a high level, then you'll want to learn all the N1 grammar. If you don't need the certification, and you don't care about learning certain grammar points, then well, nobody's forcing you to. Read what you want to read, look up the stuff you don't know, and don't worry about the test.

You seem to be asking whether it's "worth it" to learn these grammar points, and that's not a question we can answer for you because we have no idea for what specific purpose you're studying Japanese, or what level of proficiency you're aiming for.
 

Toritoribe

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Isn't it 越したことない? 越したことがない is not wrong, but は is far more common for this expression.

It's not like you never hear those expressions in daily conversations if you live in Japan. The point is, as bentenmusume-san already pointed out clearly, if you want to pass JLPT N1, you need to learn and remember them whether it's rarely used or not. If you don't aim to pass the exam, it's OK just to look them up in the dictionary when you encounter the expressions. I think it's far more useful for you to learn the expressions used in JLPT N5, N4 or N3 before worrying about the frequency of the use of N1 grammar things. My two cents.
 

IsaacDavid

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Isn't it 越したことない? 越したことがない is not wrong, but は is far more common for this expression.

It's not like you never hear those expressions in daily conversations if you live in Japan. The point is, as bentenmusume-san already pointed out clearly, if you want to pass JLPT N1, you need to learn and remember them whether it's rarely used or not. If you don't aim to pass the exam, it's OK just to look them up in the dictionary when you encounter the expressions. I think it's far more useful for you to learn the expressions used in JLPT N5, N4 or N3 before worrying about the frequency of the use of N1 grammar things. My two cents.
I'm not studying n1 grammar.only i had curiosity about the frecuent usage of those advanced grammar.
 

Toritoribe

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Why do you want to know about those two expressions especially?
 

IsaacDavid

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Why do you want to know about those two expressions especially?
They are examples of advanced japanese grammar that i saw when i read(not studied) dictionary of advanced japanese.... leaving that matter,can you say me how much is used those expressions?
 

Toritoribe

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So, you just picked up expressions randomly. Well, well... You seem to have plenty of time. Sorry, but I can't answer.
 

mdchachi

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I believe these examples fall into the category of phrases that most every native speaker knows but probably don't use very much.
I think a lot of the N1 grammar tends to be things you are more likely to read than hear in daily conversation.
 

bentenmusume

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I believe these examples fall into the category of phrases that most every native speaker knows but probably don't use very much.
I think a lot of the N1 grammar tends to be things you are more likely to read than hear in daily conversation.
There's a tendency for people to think this, and it's certainly true for some of the expressions, but as a blanket statement I can't really agree with this.

Take this list for example (apologies if it's not completely accurate, but I don't have any "official" JLPT N1 study materials on hand at the moment):

Just going down the list, I can say for a fact that these expressions would not at all be out of place in everyday conversation:
あえて (starting right from the top, this one is _ridiculously_ common)
あくまでも
案の定
あらかじめ
場合によっては
(っ)ぶる
(っ)ぶり
羽目になる
ほうがましだ
いかに(も)
いまだに
いずれにせよ

I'll stop there because I think the point is already quite clear. There are certainly more arcane phrases in there (いかんによらず and ならいざしらず are things you're more likely to find in an academic essay than overhear at the office or supermarket) but the idea that JLPT N1 is testing primarily obscure phrases that native speakers "know but rarely use" is something of a fallacy, IMHO.
 

bentenmusume

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What is the point of your question? Why do you need to know these things? Not to put words in Toritoribe-san's mouth, but I don't think he or any of us here are particularly interested in just answering random questions about the usage frequency of Japanese expressions you pulled out of a reference book.

We're perfectly happy to help you (or anyone) learn Japanese, but sometimes it seems like you're just asking random, poorly thought-out trivia questions tangentially related to Japanese rather than actually trying to gain a fundamental understanding of the language.

From your earlier posts, it seems like you're still a relative beginner at the language, so why are you worrying about JLPT N1 grammar points anyway? Didn't you say you were going to take a course? That would be a far better use of your time than worrying about how often native speakers say "koshita koto wa nai".
 

IsaacDavid

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What is the point of your question? Why do you need to know these things? Not to put words in Toritoribe-san's mouth, but I don't think he or any of us here are particularly interested in just answering random questions about the usage frequency of Japanese expressions you pulled out of a reference book.

We're perfectly happy to help you (or anyone) learn Japanese, but sometimes it seems like you're just asking random, poorly thought-out trivia questions tangentially related to Japanese rather than actually trying to gain a fundamental understanding of the language.

From your earlier posts, it seems like you're still a relative beginner at the language, so why are you worrying about JLPT N1 grammar points anyway? Didn't you say you were going to take a course? That would be a far better use of your time than worrying about how often native speakers say "koshita koto wa nai".
Of course i'm a beginner and i want to do a course of japanese,but i was reading(not studying) intermediate and advanced grammar to see an overview of japanese.what's wrong in ask about the usage of those grammar in current japanese?
 

bentenmusume

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It just seems like an oddly irrelevant thing for a beginning learner to ask. How will knowing the relative usage frequency of two very specific expressions way above your current level help you achieve a greater understanding of Japanese? Most beginners focus on learning the fundamentals of the language and are content to wait until later to worry about more advanced/obscure points.

And also, no offense, but your questions seem very scattershot and you don't really seem to be putting much thought into reading and thinking about our responses. I think my point above about the general commonality of N1 grammar points is far more relevant to getting an "overview" than answering a specific question on "koshita koto wa nai", but you seem to have not even acknowledged it.

Anyhow, long story short: you're free to ask any questions you want, but people will be more willing to help you when those questions seem relevant, well thought-out, and meaningful.
 

mdchachi

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but the idea that JLPT N1 is testing primarily obscure phrases that native speakers "know but rarely use" is something of a fallacy, IMHO.
I didn't say "primarily." I said "a lot" but I didn't necessarily mean to imply "most."  :)
Also I guess I was talking about not just grammar but the whole ball of wax. But I never passed N1 (or N2) for that matter so what do I know?
However for what it's worth Paul Fioravanti says "there may be a lot of content examined in the JLPT that is not used much in everyday Japanese."
One word I learned in my N2 studying days was ご子息 which I haven't used in the 20 years since and I don't think I ever will. But it's still taking up space in my brain. :confused:

But to yours and Paul's point, it would probably be worthwhile to spend time learning some of those phrases and vocabulary without bothering to try to pass the test. For example, I hear あらかじめ quite a lot but it's not something I can say naturally myself. I guess I haven't heard it enough for it to click.
 

bentenmusume

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I didn't say "primarily." I said "a lot" but I didn't necessarily mean to imply "most."  :)
Haha, well, I apologize if I misrepresented your point, but I feel like saying "a lot" is kind of misleading, especially without any mention that there are also "a lot" of expressions that are actually quite commonly used by native speakers (even if they may seem obscure to intermediate/advanced learners who don't get daily exposure to the language).

I mean, I'm familiar with the type of arguments and analysis made on the page you linked, and while I'll grant that there is some truth to them, I always feel the need to play devil's advocate. The language tested on JLPT N1 is not (at least, not for the most part) some kind of arcane "JLPT Japanese" that is entirely divorced from the real language. While having N1 is by no means proof of fluency (it couldn't be, since the JLPT doesn't test production), I think anyone with a legitimately advanced level of proficiency should be able to pass the test, and would argue that for those who can't, it's not because the test isn't actually testing their Japanese skill but because their Japanese skill isn't quite as advanced as they self-assess it to be. (Not trying to be cruel or judgmental about this, of course.)

I passed N1 (actually, it was the old 1-kyu before the restructuring because I'm an old geezer ;)) after about six years of study and three-ish years of living in Japan, and I did very little dedicated "test prep" of the type mentioned on that page. I was, however, reading extensively in Japanese and working in an almost monolingual Japanese environment, and I felt that this helped me greatly. I'll also say that even after passing N1 I still felt like my Japanese was woefully inadequate, and continued to feel that way for several years after. So I'm always surprised when I hear people say things like "I feel pretty confident about my Japanese level, but I just can't seem to pass N1 (or even N2)", because I feel like passing the test is a much lower bar than achieving the level of proficiency needed to truly function at a high level in a Japanese language environment.
 

IsaacDavid

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I'm very curious to know how much is used "namajikka".i know that i'm beginner and i shouldn't ask about that advanced expression,but i can't help be thinking about the usage of that expression.
 

mdchachi

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I'm very curious to know how much is used "namajikka".i know that i'm beginner and i shouldn't ask about that advanced expression,but i can't help be thinking about the usage of that expression.
Yes by asking these questions, you risk getting berated. But if you're willing to accept that risk, go ahead and ask anything you want. :cool:

It's not part of my vocabulary but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. According to this site, it was commonly used in novels 100 years ago but it's a rarely used word now.
 

mdchachi

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Not a bother at all. I answered your last question, didn't I?
 

Buntaro

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Issac, go ahead and ask your questions, even if they are ‘politically incorrect’. Good for you!
 
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