Japanese Language Conspiracies!!!

[Emoni]

Yes, below are two Japanese language conspiracy theories. Neither of these are too serious, but thoughts have crossed my mind on how accurate they might be.



1#: Correct Japanese accent is rarely taught in order to keep foreigners from learning and having a chance to truly speak correctly and sound "Japanese."

First let me state that my Japanese is no where near fluent and this isn't a question based on arrogance in any form. However, there is one thing that I have noticed in books and classes I have taken both in Japan, China, and the United States; truly correct pronunciation is rarely taught for Japanese. I'm not talking about how to say ra ri ru re ro, I'm talking about correct inflection, how to speak naturally (natural vs grammatically correct) and the like. Probably the most frustrating is inflection. I constantly hear, even from Japanese, Japanese pronunciation is so easy because unlike Chinese it has no inflection and is just one tone. Bullshit! If you want to speak Japanese, you do need to learn how sentences flow, what inflections are important in words and this is almost never taught. I have two books out of over 50 Japanese language books that actually cover inflection. When I was in Japan and looked for books that explained pronunciation and how to speak correctly as well as inflection I could only find books which were at an extremely high level of Japanese I couldn't even read past the first sentence. I could not help but feel a sense of, at the very least, unintended separation put between teaching intelligible and correct Japanese pronunciation. In comparison pronunciation in Korean and Chinese is critical so more focus is naturally put on it when being taught.

I consistently hear how hard Japanese is, and how the language almost becomes and obnoxious form of the over used and abused nihonjinron theory (yes, I know I said theory twice... sue me). The truth is, Japanese isn't THAT hard and there are plenty of difficult language in the world. However, if you don't teach important aspects of the language seemingly on purpose then it almost automatically relegates the language to become difficult to master. It's hard to put something as complex as a computer together, but not impossible. However, if you decide to leave out the cpu and memory, things get a lot more difficult for no justifiable reason.


2#: Katakana is a justified form of a linguistic superiority complex an ultimately racism.

Yes, in addition to being used for emphasis or other katakana is pretty much the character set for foreign words in Japanese. Why? I've heard all sorts of reasons and proposed benefits from foreign words being confusing if they were written in hiragana. Yeah, it's much easier in katakana so your mind is instantly flags to search for what English word was FUBAR'd so you can suddenly battle out inside your brain the way it is pronounced in English and pronounced in Japanese. It's as if a doctor is telling you, "Ok now Jim, we are going to insert this needle into your arm and it will be piercing through your flesh and fibers. Try not to imagine that as we jam this into you ok?" Well, maybe not a one for one comparison, but you understand my feelings at least.

Why does katakana have to exist? Simply so we can tell "OMG foreign word!" Some words, (tobacco anyone) have been "accepted" as Japanese while most not. What does this sense of acceptance even mean? Is katakana the linguistic gaijin card of the Japanese language? Do you have it in Korean? Nope, Chinese? Nope. (although some pronunciation syllabic set would have been nice entirely but that is a separate issue)

I have come to wonder if katakana is simply accepted as necessary by those learning the Japanese language because they have simply bought into the brain washed idea that it is required or we wouldn't know how to separate the word from Japanese and pronounce it correctly. Think about that for a minute . Does that make any sense? Flip it around, do you have any problem reading Japanese words exaggerated in katakana for effect? Yeah... something doesn't quite fit with that reason you've been told all along. Katakana is ultimately an accepted form of racism inside the language.

One final note: Ever sit in an English class in Japan? The concept of katakana is probably at its most evil in this situation. Kids all sit in the room being taught English with katakana being used to teach pronunciation. Those kids who CAN pronounce it correctly are ridiculed by other students for pronouncing it differently and thus purposefully pronounce it incorrectly. It was one of the most pathetic and angering scenes in education I had ever seen and why I will never touch being a JET.

BONUS RANT! 3#: The entire idea that kanji is an aspects that foreigners can never truly expect to master.

First, kanji ISN'T a unique aspect of the Japanese language, it's Chinese! Yes, there are differences and ultimately about 3 main sets of used kanji used in the world, but the idea that somehow kanji is part of the entire idea of Japanese uniqueness baffles me. When foriegn words were banned and replaced during the nationalistic push during the Pacific War, they were replaced with... kanji! Yes, using the language set of the country whose people were seen and treated as less than human. Even today, there seems to be a sense of thought that somehow kanji is Japanese. Even more so, this unique aspect of the Japanese language somehow cannot ever be mastered by a "foreigner." This is even more ironic when sitting in a room with 10 Japanese students and 6 Chinese students. All the Chinese student's names are different but they all introduce themselves as "Chou-san" as each of their different names get turned into simplistic sounds so you have 6 people with the same name. Further more, Japan doesn't even use or know all of the kanji that were "borrowed."

So wait, your saying foreigners can't hope to truly master kanji when Japan pronounces 6 different names, 3 of which they don't know the kanji of themselves, all as "Chou." From there the entire idea of "mastering kanji" breaks down.


So... what are your thoughts? Do you have any conspiracy theories of your own on the Japanese language?


(Disclaimer: This set of rants is not necessarily reflective of my true opinions on the subject, but they are thoughts that have crossed my mind. I am posting these in hopes to get some comments on the topics as I feel that these are questions, however outrageous some might seem, need to be asked and thought about. I truly love learning about Japan and Asia as well, and I love the Japanese language. This rant in by no means expresses hate in anyway towards another culture, race, or creed.

Oh yeah, and excuse any grammar or spelling errors. I don't have time to check this as I have to get back to studying Japanese!)

 

[Glenski]

Correct pronunciation is rarely taught. Yup. Same in English. Conspiracy or just too difficult considering all the other components of the language(s)? Or find another teacher.

Yes, in addition to being used for emphasis or other katakana is pretty much the character set for foreign words in Japanese.

Come to Japan. You'll see it spattered everywhere, not just for foreign words. That "emphasis" you wrote is what covers most of your television set. Annoys me, but it is not racist.

I have come to wonder if katakana is simply accepted as necessary by those learning the Japanese language because they have simply bought into the brain washed idea that it is required or we wouldn't know how to separate the word from Japanese and pronounce it correctly.

Do you know any other way to spell a foreign word? Katakana at least helps, but it certainly doesn't show how to pronounce it correctly, just in Japanese phonetics.

Flip it around, do you have any problem reading Japanese words exaggerated in katakana for effect? Yeah... something doesn't quite fit with that reason you've been told all along. Katakana is ultimately an accepted form of racism inside the language.

No, it's not racist. Using katakana to spell Japanese words shows you the correct Japanese pronunciation. Can't do that in other languages, as I've already described.

So wait, your saying foreigners can't hope to truly master kanji when Japan pronounces 6 different names, 3 of which they don't know the kanji of themselves, all as "Chou." From there the entire idea of "mastering kanji" breaks down.

Looked at from the Japanese perspective, it's logical to assume that if Japanese people have problems reading/pronouncing kanji (and the most certainly do!), then why should it be easy for foreigners? It's harder for most of them, I would think. Looking at it from a purely linguistic acquisition side, of course the statement is false (that foreigners can't master kanji. But, at least if you pull out an electronic dictionary, a Japanese person has a better clue as to what to type in for possible pronunciations. Most foreigners have to rely on the stylus-drawn entry and hope his handwriting isn't too faulty.

 

[Emoni]

Thanks for the counter-reply.

I have been to Japan. I lived there for two years now during two study programs in Tokyo and Kanagawa. I've seen the Katakana spit all over the place, but I'm mostly speaking in the sense of it's focus towards foreign words in this thread. It helps keep the ravings more focused after all!

To clarify the above conspiracy/rant:

By correct pronunciation I'm not speaking of a "perfect level of language" rather than a natural flow that goes along with the emotions you intend to express behind the words you use as well as the generally accepted "right way" of saying the word. Yes, pronunciation isn't taught often, but there tends to be a low level of focus on it in Japanese in regards to "saying it right." Every book I have seen on the subject is at a graduate school level (or at least appears to be) and tends to be focused on the more linguistic aspects.

As for other ways to spell a foreign word... why not Hiragana? Yes, Hiragana. Other languages I know don't have a special "set" of characters for foreign language. It would be like English having all borrowed foreign words in CAPITALS every time, followed by the argument that if it wasn't in capitals people would get confused. An abstract example yes, but you get my point. I'm trying to get at the core of "why are things the way they are?" If you look at it from this angle a sense of racism does peer through the cracks.

As for learning English, the correct pronunciation needs to be taught in schools. Try going to a college class and then they teach Korean with Katakana. It took me 3 months in class before I realized that the reason I was always the slowest in class to pronounce the sentences was that I had the audacity to try to READ the Hangul and everyone else was just reading the Katakana pronunciations on the next page. I didn't learn a damn thing from that class anyway, and only after going to study abroad during the summer from Japan in Korea did I learn basic pronunciation. Katakana is not a learning tool it is a rusted barbed hook in your tongue hindering every second of effort towards learning a language.

You're argument for why Japanese perceive kanji as hard for foreigners is a bit tough to hit. However, the sense that kanji is difficult in a humble relation to the difficulty that Japanese endure learning kanji isn't entirely what I was referring to. The essence of what I was attempting to get at is the concept that certain aspects of Japan are not possible to grasp or master for "foreigners." Another example besides kanji would be the essence of silence used in movies and conversation in Japan. Yes, I'm pushing this a bit and it isn't a common occurrence, but I have witnessed this sort of mindset that contains a distinct level of superiority behind it. It would be saying to any Japanese person, that they cannot make a truly great hamburger because they are not American.

 

[undrentide]

The essence of what I was attempting to get at is the concept that certain aspects of Japan are not possible to grasp or master for "foreigners."

When you use the word "foreigners", do you refer only to the people from western countries where the language is written in Roman Alphabets?
In Japan the people from China are also "foreigners" and their language consists of kanji (Hanzi)...
If it is a conspiracy for all the foreigners, certainly it does not with with them.

 

[JimmySeal]

#1

There is no conspiracy to keep students of Japanese from learning correct inflection. The reason it isn't "taught" in most Japanese classes is that it would be tremendously time consuming and counter-productive to attempt to teach it.
Pronunciation and accent, of all things, are points that need to be learned, but not intellectualized. Teachers do teach inflection and pronunciation to their students simply by speaking to them.

While it might be helpful for class vocabulary lists to have marks on them indicating inflection, the lack of such marks is probably the result of 2 things:
1) Japanese themselves do not seem to think about inflection a whole lot, and unlike English-English dictionaries, a large portion of Japanese-Japanese dictionaries have no indication of where the accent is placed on words.
2) Japan has a very large degree of dialectical variation and that includes differences in inflection, so teaching students a particular inflection would only teach them the inflection for one part of Japan. In many cases, the inflection written on the paper would be vastly different from that which the teacher is actually using in the classroom, and would simply confuse students.


#2

We are generally told that hiragana is used to write any Japanese word as a writer so chooses, and in theory this is true, but in actual practice, hiragana's function in contemporary adult-level text is to represent particles, inflectional endings, helping verbs and only occasionally other Japanese words like verbs and nouns (and even then, it is mostly restricted to words that have rare or no kanji representations).

Anyone who has tried to read Japanese entirely in hiragana surely knows how frustrating it is and kanji does a great job to suggest word boundaries and ease the difficulty of figuring out where one word ends and the next begins.

Since the majority of foreign words cannot be written in kanji, they employ katakana to represent them, and again leave the hiragana for the "grammatical glue" like particles and inflections.

#3

While there no doubt are a few people that think that most westerners could never possibly learn kanji, these are usually the same people with the misguided notion that one cannot learn any language other than their native language after a certain age. With that mindset, it's easy to believe that, surely, no westerner could possibly learn kanji as an adult.

A probably larger group are the Japanese who reason that they spent 12 years of formal education grueling through the characters and still wound up with a less-than-perfect grasp of them, so how could any ordinary westerner have the time, dedication, and guidance to go through the process as an adult?
This manner of thinking is yet again misguided, but rather understandable.

 

[Glenski]

Yes, English pronunciation needs to be taught, but there are 2 answers to that.

1) It's not for Jimmy Seal's reasons. Same holds for Japanese.
2) Why are we comparing what SHOULD be done in English vs. what you WANT done in Japanese?

As for other ways to spell a foreign word... why not Hiragana?

Aside from Jimmy's answer, mine is this. Because using katakana makes it stand out as a foreign word, so the reader doesn't have to ponder what the heck it is from his own vocabulary. Actually, it's rather nice that way. Racist? Hardly. I don't think you know what that word means. Oh, and English DOES have a way to represent foreign words. Two ways, actually. They either insert the foreign alphabet or unique markings (umlauts, for example), or they put the foreign word in italic font. Even so, I see no difference in calling katanana racist and calling italic font for foreign words racist.

You're argument for why Japanese perceive kanji as hard for foreigners is a bit tough to hit.

It's not my argument. It's the Japanese explanation (for some Japanese anyway). There ARE those who think we foreigners will never learn kanji. Once you accept that silly notion, you're halfway home.

The essence of what I was attempting to get at is the concept that certain aspects of Japan are not possible to grasp or master for "foreigners."

Yes, they say that, too, but that has nothing to do with kanji or katakana. Nor is the idea necessarily racist.

Another example besides kanji would be the essence of silence used in movies and conversation in Japan. Yes, I'm pushing this a bit and it isn't a common occurrence, but I have witnessed this sort of mindset that contains a distinct level of superiority behind it. It would be saying to any Japanese person, that they cannot make a truly great hamburger because they are not American.

I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you are driving at here. Silence in movies is not a Japanese thing. Nor is it in conversation. Give this another shot.

 

[Emoni]

Very good replies here.

I think by typing more I might be just mixing too much into things to try to get at the core of the concept I'm speaking of.

I'll try a new approach; short simplicity.

I'm extremely tempted to speak about the English teaching mess and tell a few stories about kids who have successfully learned better English than their English teachers by the age of 8 in Japan but I think maybe I'll start another thread. I don't want to derail things further in regards to that. I will say, for the sake of pronunciation, I have seen it taught in class in Japan in my Chinese class. As pronunciation and inflection is critical, it was important for the class and was not time nearing as time consuming as you might expect.

Yes, to clarify I am talking about "westerner's" when I referred to foreigners above.

If you clearly label and separate your "native language" from "foreign borrowed language" then yes, I believe it can be argued that there is a sense of racist action taking place with that separation. Yes, Katakana words signal that the word is most likely foreign in nature, but it is by no means necessary to do so. Does it truly help in reading the word just to know it is "foreign?" Does it change the meaning? No. My point here is to think about the typical argument that Katakana makes things easier in reverse. I came to this after seeing the way Korean is written.

In reply to Glenski on the third issue of kanji, JimmySeal is mostly on a similar track to interpreting what I said about the subject so you can simply reference what he wrote. i will say that your point about silence in movies not being a Japanese thing (yet interpreted by many Japanese to be so) hits at the core of what I was stating in my probably loosely put together argument.

Bed time!

 

[caster51]

私の好きなすぽーつは、ばすけっとぼーるとばれーぼーるですが、あめりかんふっとぼーるは、苦手です。すみすさんとじょんさんは、おーすとりあから来ました。
ぽてとふらいとはんばーぐをどこのまくどなるどで買いますか？


私の好きなスポーツは、バスケットボールとバレーボールですが、アメリカンフットボールは、苦手です。スミスさんとジョンさんは、オーストリアから来ました。
ボテトフライとハンバーグをどこのマクドナルドで買いますか？

that is why the korean does not read books more than the japanese.
because to read a book is agony for korean

 

[Emoni]

それを読むと最初にちょっと変な感じだけど、私にとって大体同じすぴーど（ごめん～）読めた。ちょっと変な感じのはまだ慣れていないものだ。でも、どして||を入れたの？実はそれは一番読みにくいところだと思う。

 

[caster51]

それを読むと最初にちょっと変な感じだけど、私にとって大体同じすぴーど（ごめん～）読めた。ちょっと変な感じのはまだ慣れていないものだ。でも、どして||を入れたの？実はそれは一番読みにくいところだと思う。

moji-bake
your Japanese is good enough

 

[Glenski]

For the sake of people who cannot read Japanese, can we NOT use Japanese script here? There IS a Japanese forum for it.

 

[Kirakira1232]

Katakana, simply put was the Japanese solution to the rising number of gairaigo or foreign words that were penetrating the language. Not only from english mind you. Katakana was created originally for buddhist scripts to be written in, it was originally noted as "the man's handwriting" and consequently hiragana was perceived as "feminine". Both scripts were in fact derived from Chinese characters despite being purely phonetic.

Different countries, different approaches to the same problem. Japanese decided to use Katakana, China decided to try and use existing syllabary characters. If Japan was truly racist then NO borrowed words would exist in the language whatsoever. You would instead ramp up national "purity" of the language by purging of it of "foreign taints". Much like the vain attempt by the French to purge it's language of borrowed english words (like "le hot dog")

The Japanese borrowed Kanji from the Chinese and integrated into their own language system however haphazardly it was done. This was done thousands of years ago...and I dont think that they did it "just so that it would make it harder for foreigners" but rather China at that point in history was linked to prosperity and the Japanese (and the Koreans too) wanted to be linked to that. The only difference now is that Korea do not use Hanja (Chinese characters) as prominently anymore. Whereas the Japanese continue to do so. As said before, Kanji is perhaps the only way you can probably remain sane reading long reams of Japanese text.

Not that Japan is the only country that had certain people believe that their language was "too unique and hard for foreigners". China for many thousands of years regarded themselves as the "Central Kingdom" and believed the further you moved from the centre the more barbaric you became. Even my Chinese lecturer who was a Caucasian Australian and lived in China for some 30 years still finds some Chinese that cannot reconcile a caucasian speaking fluent mandarin.

In old countries/civilisations there is always going to be some sort of issue dealing with influences from the "outside" versus indigenous culture. Its a tricky balance.

 

[JimmySeal]

I came to this after seeing the way Korean is written.

This is not a valid comparison. Hangul is capable of representing 11,172 different combinations (obviously some are not used, but a large portion of them are).
By contrast, hiragana can represent no more than 200 different morae.

So native and loanwords alike in Korean can be easily identified by the distinct shape of their hangul blocks, while rendering Japanese all in hiragana results in long strings of the same 50 kana over and over. It's practically illegible.

This is one of the main reasons Korean is doing quite well without kanji and Japanese remains bound to it.

 

[FrustratedDave]

窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙樞?堙?催?鞘?ｰ窶堙俄?堋ｿ窶堙･窶堙≫?堙??｢ﾃ鞘?堙闇?'窶堋ｶ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｯ窶堙?、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙俄?堙??堙≫?堙??佚･窶佚娯?慊ｯ窶堋ｶ窶堋ｷ窶堙陳ー窶堙?（窶堋ｲ窶堙溪?堙ｱﾂ〜ﾂ）窶愿??堙溪?堋ｽﾂ。窶堋ｿ窶堙･窶堙≫?堙??｢ﾃ鞘?堙闇?'窶堋ｶ窶堙娯?堙坂?堙懌?堋ｾﾅ?ﾂｵ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙?窶堙娯?堋ｾﾂ。窶堙??堙?ﾂ、窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙л|窶堙ｰ窶愿ｼ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶堙個？ﾅｽﾃ?窶堙坂?堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙才?ｪ窶敕披?愿??堙昶?堙俄?堋ｭ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ窶堋ｾ窶堙?ｽv窶堋､ﾂ。

It is not just a question of being able to read it smoothly, more so identifiying with the word and having understanding reached in the shortest possible time. Katakana acheives this.
Like with kanji, meaning comes with it.

 

[caster51]

This is one of the main reasons Korean is doing quite well without kanji and Japanese remains bound to it.

it is wrong.
korean sound are made from chinese.
so there are many homonym.

전사, 전사, 전사
戦史、戦士、戦死
war history, warrior and death in action are same.
homonym in korean
for example
＜独自 original＞と＜読者 readers＞
＜少数 a small number＞と＜素数 a prime number＞
＜課長 a section chief＞と＜誇張 exaggeration＞
＜地図 map＞と＜指導 caoch＞
＜首相 prime minister＞と＜受賞 be awarded＞
＜朝鮮 Chosun＞と＜造船 ship building＞
＜初代 first＞と＜招待 invite＞
＜大国 big nation＞と＜対局 play a match＞
＜株券 stock＞と＜主権 sovereignty＞
＜反戦 anti-war＞と＜反転 be reversed＞
＜同情 sympathy＞と＜童貞 male virgin＞
＜定額 a fixed charge＞と＜精液 sperm＞
＜注意 caution＞と＜主義 principle＞
＜顧問 adviser＞と＜拷問 torture＞
＜自身 one's self＞と＜自信 self confidence＞
＜歴史 history＞と＜駅舎 train staiton＞
＜連覇 win many chanpionships continuously＞と＜連敗 lose continuosly＞
＜市場 market place＞と＜市長 mayor＞
＜遺産 heritage＞と＜乳酸 lactic acid＞



There are merely a lot of unnesessary sounds of the pronunciation

 

[Mycernius]

I have read that katakana is also used for Japanese words when they want to emphasize the word, a bit like we use capitals when we need to make a headline or phrase eye catching. On pronunciation, how do you say your English words? I'm sure that I can find that your pronunciation of various English words are wrong to how I say them. That being said I am from the UK and regional accents do differ from area to area and country to country, so the stress of certain letters differs, or sounds even lost? For example the word buoy. In BrEng is is said as boy, yet in AmEng it is boo-ee. Though there is standard English that is taught in schools, how do tyou think someone from Japan feels when visiting the UK comes across a scots accent? Maybe he would say why don't the teachers back in Japan teach pronunciation of English words correctly? You think you might have problems with various Japanese accents, how do you think the rest of the non-English speaking world feel when faced with the multitude of English accents around the world?

 

[JimmySeal]

it is wrong.
korean sound are made from chinese.
so there are many homonym.

전사, 전사, 전사
ﾂ静ｭﾅｽjﾂ、ﾂ静ｭﾅｽmﾂ、ﾂ静ｭﾅｽ竄ｬ
war history, warrior and death in action are same.
homonym in korean
for example
ﾂ?停?愿?ｽﾂｩ originalﾂ≫?樞?堙??停?愿?ｽﾃ readersﾂ≫?
ﾂ?陳渉ｭﾂ絶? a small numberﾂ≫?樞?堙??停?惑ﾂ絶? a prime numberﾂ≫?
ﾂ?停?ｰﾃ帚?卍ｷ a section chiefﾂ≫?樞?堙??椎津問?卍｣ exaggerationﾂ≫?

...

It is indeed true that Korean has many homonyms, just as any language does, but I think the reality is that they are far fewer than the homonyms found in Japanese.

 

[caster51]

It is indeed true that Korean has many homonyms, just as any language does, but I think the reality is that they are far fewer than the homonyms found in Japanese

I dont think so.
there are some pronunciations that are applied one chinese character in japanese
however, a korean pronunciation is applied one chinese character.
＜戦記 record of a war＞の発音(pronunciation)senki
＜前期 early part ＞の発音zenki
＜伝記 biography＞の発音denki
however in korean , these are pronunced chongi

サービス終了のお知らせ

it is regrettable that the Korean has given up the Chinese character for
pride.

 

[Emoni]

It is not just a question of being able to read it smoothly, more so identifiying with the word and having understanding reached in the shortest possible time. Katakana acheives this.
Like with kanji, meaning comes with it.

How does Katakana achieve this any more than Hiragana? This is exactly the sort of logic I'm seeking to get an actual justification rather than just hearing it repeated.

Yes, you may be used to seeing the Katakana version rather than Hiragana, but that doesn't make it anymore easier to read than if it were Hiragana. Both are literally the same sounds, take up the same space, and are written out in a syllabic character set.

The main point of this post was not really to argue the conspiracy theories themselves, but hear a logical justification (and there may not be any for some) for the current arguments that exist today.

Caster51 is doing fine countering the Katakana/Korean argument being invalid. So I won't cover that.

 

[Glenski]

I have read that katakana is also used for Japanese words when they want to emphasize the word, a bit like we use capitals when we need to make a headline or phrase eye catching.

Everything I learned in my Japanese classes about the reason for using katakana went out the window the day I landed here. Trust me. It's used everywhere! That bit about "emphasis" is the most annoying to me. Katakana is plastered all over the TV screen even when the words are Japanese and NOT emphasized in any fashion. Best answer I have received to date on this is from my wife. She said it's used whenever people use a dialect that is hard to understand, or when (here's that word again) the word has some strong emphasis in the sentence. Yeah, right.

On pronunciation, how do you say your English words?

I speak them pretty much the same as I would to a native English speaker. If there happens to be a bastardized Japanese version loan word, I might use that next, but I'd prefer to just define the word. I also speak slowly and clearly for the sake of my lower level students.

Though there is standard English that is taught in schools, how do you think someone from Japan feels when visiting the UK comes across a scots accent?

They say, "Wow! A different (and perhaps difficult to understand) accent!"

Maybe he would say why don't the teachers back in Japan teach pronunciation of English words correctly?

And, just what would "correctly" mean? British vs. N.American? Texan vs. Maine? Cockney vs. the Queen's? Japanese teachers of English teach pronunciation very little, and they only use what they have been exposed to. I've met many who have N.American accents and British accents and Aussie accents.

You think you might have problems with various Japanese accents, how do you think the rest of the non-English speaking world feel when faced with the multitude of English accents around the world?

They learn to accept whatever they hear. Some would rather just learn an American accent (as if there is only ONE!); some prefer the British. It can be more than a matter of what pronunciation they like, of course. Practicality may get in the way. Example: a student wants to live in the UK, so they should study more of the British English grammar and end up with a British accent when they return.

 

[Emoni]

Yes, Katakana shows up all over the place in Japan. I'm specifically talking about Katakana in respect to it being used selectively for foreign words in my argument. This, and this only is the aspect I am speaking of in terms of possible racism.

As for the English teaching thing... I know I said I wasn't going to say anything more for risk of derailing the thread, but I do want to clarify: the problem isn't with teaching a certain accent over another, the problem is teaching English pronunciation with "Katakana" accent, words and phrases that are highly unnatural and not used in any region, and just generally lousy teaching methods. I've sat in many English classes from elementary school to high school level, as well as taken part in English training events. As some JET posters here may be able to qualify, English teaching in Japan is pathetic without even considering the "Nova-like" institutions. Don't even get me started on other aspects of the Japanese education system! (not that the American education system is a model!)

Yeah... I think I'm going to start an extra thread.

 

[JimmySeal]

Caster51 is doing fine countering the Katakana/Korean argument being invalid. So I won't cover that.

Actually, he's not countering it at all. He's saying that Korean writing is painfully difficult for anyone to read, as Japanese would be if it were entirely written in hiragana.

Besides, this isn't a question of what is conceivably possible. Anyone with a good grasp of Japanese can empirically verify that it's much harder to read if all of the katakana is replaced with hiragana.

If you clearly label and separate your "native language" from "foreign borrowed language" then yes, I believe it can be argued that there is a sense of racist action taking place with that separation.

You have yet to refute my assertion that most native Japanese words (other than particles, inflections, and helping verbs) are not written in hiragana. In fact, most plant and animal names are written in katakana. We then have the following general roles for the three writing systems in adult-level writing (and yes, this is not all-encompassing, but it's good enough):

kanji: nouns, adjectives, verbs and adverbs that can be written with relatively common kanji, or (at the author's discretion) less common kanji words with furigana
hiragana: particles, inflections, helping verbs, and (on occasion) other native and Sino-Japanese words
katakana: everything else (this includes native Japanese words)

Since most foreign words do not fit into the first two categories, they are naturally placed in the third. How then, is this racist?


You have also failed to substantiate how using katakana to mark foreign words (even if it were only marking foreign words, which it isn't) indicates linguistic superiority. How does indicating something is "different" imply that it is inferior?

 

[FrustratedDave]

How does Katakana achieve this any more than Hiragana? This is exactly the sort of logic I'm seeking to get an actual justification rather than just hearing it repeated.
Yes, you may be used to seeing the Katakana version rather than Hiragana, but that doesn't make it anymore easier to read than if it were Hiragana. Both are literally the same sounds, take up the same space, and are written out in a syllabic character set.
The main point of this post was not really to argue the conspiracy theories themselves, but hear a logical justification (and there may not be any for some) for the current arguments that exist today.
Caster51 is doing fine countering the Katakana/Korean argument being invalid. So I won't cover that.

How does this achieve it more than Hiragana?
Quite easily. I would like to see you argument on taking Kanji out of the language?
example, which is easier to UNDERSTAND?

This, "そのけいたいからのうじょうもしくはぼうすいじょうにだいべつされ、せいいんによりせんてんせい、どうみゃくこうかせい、さいきんせい、ばいどくせい、がいしょうせいなどにぶんるいされる。"

Or this "その形態から囊状もしくは紡錘状に大別され、成因により先天性、動脈硬化性、細菌性、梅毒性、外傷性などに分類される"

This is obviously a medical explanation. With the hiragana example, there is a great possibility that some of these words could be misinterpreted, but with the one with the kanji this is not possible.

So like with kanji ,katakana words have meaning in the way they are written to decrease any room for misinterpretation.
How would you translate the following sentence, both have completely different meanings.
Eg, "彼の部屋にれいがいてた"
"彼の部屋にれいがいてた"

 

[Emoni]

FrustratedDave: you didn't really explain the katakana aspect so I'm not sure how to respond. I am not saying kanji should be removed, but it "could" it would just make certain things more difficult and there may be a need for spacing put into Japanese. I'm not comparing this to the removal of Katakana as it is simply not comparable.

JimmySeal: Your arguments are the hardest to counter of anyone here by far. Continuing on the side of the "Katakana is racist" argument, let me see if I can come up with anything further.

I believe there can be an argument made for that fact that with consideration to the fact that foreign words are selectively given Katakana for the distinct advantage of separating a foreign word from the Japanese language, this can be inherently seen as a form of implied language superiority on the Japanese side. We could say that by the very fact that the foreign language is given the selection of a separate character set that this brings with it the idea of a need for both languages caring different quality and values.

So why then is tobacco in Hiragana? There is a distinct difference in the way that Katakana is used for the native Japanese language. One issue I haven't brought up for comparison (because it is one hell'uva stretch) is the fact that Chinese pronunciations of Kanji are given a Hiragana set, but not Katakana. With Katakana comes the inherent idea of separation on some level. Katakana styled foreign borrowed words are a strong part of the Japanese language, yet have they really been entirely accepted when they are still in Hiragana? Again, during World War II there was an effort to erase these foreign words and give them Kanji and Japanese terms instead. That didn't last, but the separation of them being in Katakana does remain.

For the love of language why can't 美さん びさん sit together with ビさん in the same part of the bus! ビ and び really are the same character. (Drama switch off)

 

[FrustratedDave]

FrustratedDave: you didn't really explain the katakana aspect so I'm not sure how to respond. I am not saying kanji should be removed, but it "could" it would just make certain things more difficult and there may be a need for spacing put into Japanese. I'm not comparing this to the removal of Katakana as it is simply not comparable.

I answered your question in my last post, but you obviously did not understand. Read the sentence below and answer the question.

So like with kanji ,katakana words have meaning in the way they are written to decrease any room for misinterpretation.
How would you translate the following sentence, both have completely different meanings.
Eg, "彼の部屋にれいがいた"
"彼の部屋にれいがいた"

One more time. Katakana is like kanji, with out it it makes reading and interpreting things quite difficult.

I used the example for kanji b/c that is the easiest way to explain, just like kanji if katakata were eliminated from the writting system misinterpretations would occur. I hope that is clear enough for you? If not explain to me what you don't understand about the fact that katakana is in effect a tool just like kanji to reduce misinterpretations and make comprehension easier.

Edit: Writting in kansai ben, changed it to hyoujyun go. In kansai ben "いてた" is used over "いた". Cheers