Japan to teach patriotism to children

Mars Man · 16 Sep 2007

That is true. (oh and I have to edit my earlier post, I missed a negator)

Yes, I fully agree, most ordinary people don't care about it, don't really think about it, and just do what everyone else does. Or just do what those taking the lead insinuate they should do.

THIS bothers me. THIS shows a lack of democratic thinking. THIS 'follow the sheep in front' type mentality--be it here in Japan, the USA, France, or the UK--is largely unhealthy and less productive for humankind than otherwise.

Thanks for that input and those thoughts !! Nice !!

Glenski · 17 Sep 2007

caster,
The quote refers to events that took place over 120 years ago, and it refers mostly to "divine services, Buddhist ceremony, and end year party". It barely mentions weddings at all. Your statement a few posts back says that Kimigayo is used today in weddings. So, let's stay on track here.

Wedding customs vary throughout Japan. In some areas, for example, husbands have to give a "payment" to the wife's parents, but in other areas, they don't. (Thankfully, I live in the latter category.) Do you know what areas within Japan that currently today use Kimigayo in weddings, and can you show a source? 1870 is not today.

As for this:

and a teacher should teach it, kimi is the things which you love

I think you have to agree that "should" is a strong word, and many Japanese do not agree with you about its interpretation. It was originally a poem, not a piece of literature or music commissioned to represent the Japanese nation. Literature, especially poetry, has a wide amount of interpretation, and I think you will find that the many rebellious teachers who refuse to stand during Kimigayo have their reasons -- good ones stemming from an interpretation different from your own. So, how can you propose teaching something that a teacher doesn't believe in?

You wrote:

i think ordinal ppl does not care about that. (political issue)

Well, I don't see that you can justify such a statement with all the ordinary people (teachers) refusing to acknowledge Kimigayo for the very reason that is it political.

caster51 · 17 Sep 2007

Anyway ,Bfore meiji Era, Kimi was indicated a pesons who were blessed.
it was not a emperor
so, it can change by our mind.

Do you know what areas within Japan that currently today use Kimigayo in weddings, and can you show a source? 1870 is not today.

it is a just fashion.
It has a nothing to do with kimi's interpretation of Today.
it is a just poem that a person or something are blessed

So, how can you propose teaching something that a teacher doesn't believe in?

I think they dont have a capabilities to teach because they are not flexible.
WHY did they believe it?
because someone brainwashed them

KirinMan · 17 Sep 2007

Side note here; I have been to literally hundreds of weddings in my time here in Japan and I can NEVER recall kimigayo ever being played.

Maybe they play it for uyoku couples when they get married along with other martial, let's bring back the emperor types of music.

caster51 · 17 Sep 2007

Side note here; I have been to literally hundreds of weddings in my time here in Japan and I can NEVER recall kimigayo ever being played.

Who said about Today's custom

you guys still misunderstand.

kimigayo is a Japanese Poem
today's melody was made in Meiji era by a German

then there was no fixed melody like today's kimigayo song before meiji

Shigin... or Nagauta..
Shigin - Wikipedia
Heike monogatari

I think it was sung like that

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
いわゆる歌のように、詩文をリズム、メロディに乗せて歌うのではなく、詩文の素読（朗読）を基本とし、素読の後に特有のメロディを加えることで、より効果的に詩情を表現する。

具体的には、「はーるーこーおーじょーおーのー、はーなーのーえーんー」と歌うのではなく、「はるゥーー（節調）こーじょーのォーー（節調）、はなのォーー（節調）えんンーー（節調）」というように、語尾の母音を長く引き、そこで節調を行うことになる。

詩吟が、その吟詠（吟ずること）の対象とするのは、その歴史的経緯から主として漢詩であるが、和歌や俳句、新体詩を吟ずることも少なくない。ただし、あまり長いものは好まれず、漢詩の吟詠であっても七言絶句が一般的である

詩吟 - Wikipedia

I think kimigayo was sung like Takasago..
nobody will sing a song it today at wedding
http://www.amie.or.jp/daruma/Meoto-1.html
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/高砂_(能)

caster51 · 17 Sep 2007

The beginning phrase-"Kimi Ga Yo"-was originally written "Wa Ga Kimi"(窶ｰﾃ､窶堋ｪﾅ誰, also approximately translated to "My Lord"). As time passed, the form using "Kimi Ga Yo" spread. At this point in time "Kimi" meant "Monarch" or "Emperor". However, in a time without mass communication, to the common people the Emperor seemed to be an untouchable, unimaginable god, floating above the clouds and a thing of long ago legend or fairy tales. So, it is also possible that the lyrics praying for the long life of "My Lord" were separated from any sort of loyalty and used instead as a prayer for the continuation of peace. For this reason, when the peacefully Heian Period changed to the bloody Edo Period, the song once again became used as a simple celebration song among common people. To go along with this, the meaning of "Kimi" also underwent a transformation. For example, when the song was sung in celebration of a wedding, "Kimi" came to mean the groom and the song was used to wish for the groom's long life and his family's health.
Incidentally, the version of the song that was published in the Elementary Student's Song Book (First Edition) maintained by the Japanese Ministry of Education (released in 1881) was longer than the current version and surprisingly, there was also a second version. It was derived from an English Hymn.

Indopedia - The Indological Knowledgebase

hplaserjet6p · 18 Sep 2007

Many in Japan think Kimigayo = uyoku, like those dispicable ppl in NHK.
what is so wrong about prasing the Emperor anyway, if "kimi" addresses the Emperor?

no body gives a fuss about "God save the Queen"

diceke · 18 Sep 2007

hplaserjet6p said:
Many in Japan think Kimigayo = uyoku, like those dispicable ppl in NHK.
what is so wrong about prasing the Emperor anyway, if "kimi" addresses the Emperor?

no body gives a fuss about "God save the Queen"

Japan should teach their kids "God Save the Queen" (Sex Pistols) because I love this song..

Maybe "Aux armes" is even better.

Glenski · 19 Sep 2007

caster51 said:
Who said about Today's custom

You did! I quote one page ago:
"To begin with, Kimigayo is a song at the wedding for a couple"

you guys still misunderstand.

No, we don't. You are giving us ancient history and telling us that is happens today.

Mars Man · 19 Sep 2007

I understand both sides here, I feel. I would like to suggest that a certain possible lack of accuracy in English wording may have lead to a conception which is different from that within the mind of the sender.

In simpler words: I feel that the concept, or intended image which caster51 had seen in his mind was not properly transfered through the language medium.

I'm not yet convinced that he had intended to mean at weddings today.

GodEmperorLeto · 19 Sep 2007

Mars Man said:
I understand both sides here, I feel. I would like to suggest that a certain possible lack of accuracy in English wording may have lead to a conception which is different from that within the mind of the sender.

...

I'm not yet convinced that he had intended to mean at weddings today.

Yeah, but he's also claiming, I think, that "Kimigayo" is not about the Emperor. And if you are going to be making linguistic claims like that, well, from what I know, when the song was composed as a waka during the Heian period, it was not about the Emperor, but a lover ("kimi"), but it was reinterpreted as the Emperor being the person being referred to during the Meiji era.

caster51 · 19 Sep 2007

, it was not about the Emperor, but a lover ("kimi"), but it was reinterpreted as the Emperor being the person being referred to during the Meiji era.

kimi's interpretation also changes with a period.
those teachers were pitiful ppls who were caught in the recognition at certain of the past fixed time .
because they were not there

that is,they were brainwashed by some group.

They do not have flexibility.
they can not get out of their brainwashed frame at any time.
I think they might be a good student for Japanese education, or they are
prisoners of conscience for commies and anti........

Mars Man · 20 Sep 2007

Yes, GEL san, as I had tried, at least, to point out in an earlier posts somewhere above, the primary application--it's interpretation and use over the longer period of time, over the larger number of population up to the more recent time zone--of that song is what would actually have to be given the greater weight of all those involved with that same time zone and population.

I will admit, I can't exactly follow your other points, caster51 san, but as regards teaching patriotism in the public school system here in Japan, I still posit that the education system should not be owned by the government of Japan, so direct pressure of any kind to teach such a matter, be of a certain frame of mind towards the idea or whatever should not be allowed to get the upper hand.

Forcing teachers and students alike to essentially do an act of worship--as it boils down to in psychological terms--to an idea as narrow as a single national system, is disallowing a freer, more democratic way of thinking. I think that is wrong.

I do hope, gentlemen, that we can come back up out of the 'Japanese National Anthem's Interpretation Scenarios' embedding, and on to the more specific topic. Let's get back on topic ! MM

~Dei~ · 20 Sep 2007

"Patriotism" in schools is one of the things that the US is ridiculed for.

Why must Japan follow in it's footsteps?

hplaserjet6p said:
no body gives a fuss about "God save the Queen"

Most of the people I know hate it.

But then, you can't blame them for not wanting to sing what they see as a foreign national anthem.

Glenski · 20 Sep 2007

~Dei~ said:
"Patriotism" in schools is one of the things that the US is ridiculed for.

I thought it was patriotism (or over-patriotism) by the government that irked people (including this American).

Japan to teach patriotism to children

Mars Man

先輩

Glenski

Just me

caster51

後輩

KirinMan

後輩

caster51

後輩

caster51

後輩

hplaserjet6p

先輩

diceke

Guest

Glenski

Just me

Mars Man

先輩

GodEmperorLeto

先輩

caster51

後輩

Mars Man

先輩

~Dei~

先輩

Glenski

Just me

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