Haruto Uzumaki
渦巻ハルト
- 24 Apr 2022
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It's not just implied though. These phrases are part of the language and well understood.て-form is simply a "continuous verb connector" of sorts that allows you to connect other words and phrases to the verb, and anything more than that is just implied. Would I be right about that or onto something?
Indeed the -te form can be an imperative, but it's not a polite imperative but more likely a casual soft imperative. Thus, you can't use this form to your superior. This is not the contraction such like なければ vs. なきゃ, but the omission of the following word (e.g. 食べて vs. 食べてください) since it's obvious from the context.Similar to how things like「なければ(いけない、ならない、等々)」get shortened to 「なきゃ」, I have a strong feeling that 「何何て」is just a shortening of 「何何て(いい、ほしい、等々)」and not actually a "polite request form" at all like it's taught to us. Rather, what if it's more like"it would be (good, desired) if you did "or more accurately, "doing _ is (good/desirable/etc)", which is, in a way, definitely a Japanese way of asking someone to do something?
That's exactly the fundamental function of the -te form, therefore, it can show, for example, the reason/cause.I think at the heart of it, the て-form is simply a "continuous verb connector" of sorts that allows you to connect other words and phrases to the verb, and anything more than that is just implied.
That's true, just the way I originally learned it made me think using the て form in itself (when used alone) caused the feeling of a request, and I eventually found that to not really be the case...TE form by itself has never been a "polite request form." But it's how you form polite requests such as "~TE KUDASAI."
The word I should've used is "omitted" as @Toritoribe worded it, as in, the sense of it being a request comes from the omitted word that comes after て, and the omitted word is "imagined" due to the fact that as a connective form, using て in the first place implies the speaker intended to connect something to it, but omitted whatever would've been connected. Basically, my feeling is that it's only understood because of the fact that it's expected for something to be connected to the て, as the connector it is. Hope that makes sense.It's not just implied though. These phrases are part of the language and well understood.
I guess I just never made that distinction before, I thought only the imperative form (ろ、れ、等々) could be considered imperative, so I considered て as a "request" the whole time... And I guess in contrast to how the imperatives sound, I considered that polite (and also with how tightly wound the て form is to ください and other 丁寧語)Indeed the -te form can be an imperative, but it's not a polite imperative but more likely a casual soft imperative. Thus, you can't use this form to your superior.
I used a bad example I guess, since as you said, it's a contraction, but omission was what I meant.This is not the contraction such like なければ vs. なきゃ, but the omission of the following word (e.g. 食べて vs. 食べてください) since it's obvious from the context.
Now that you said that it helped me make sense of times when people end their sentences with てThat's exactly the fundamental function of the -te form, therefore, it can show, for example, the reason/cause.
With this example, could I be right to assume to technically "finish" the sentence, the student would've most likely said 「遅刻しました」? Now it makes sense, it's just like ので in this caseteacher: なぜ遅刻したの?
student: 事故で電車が遅れて。
Requests are imperatives. Advice can be as well. "Drink plenty of water."I guess I just never made that distinction before, I thought only the imperative form (ろ、れ、等々) could be considered imperative, so I considered て as a "request" the whole time... And I guess in contrast to how the imperatives sound, I considered that polite (and also with how tightly wound the て form is to ください and other 丁寧語)
I don't think this understanding makes sense in the case of imperative use.So basically, て is the connector, and whatever could be expected to come after it gives it meaning, whether to request or to give reason.
○○ is the normal way to me. I didn't realize there was a risque connotation.Would ○○て be better (despite the censorship connotation it has sometimes)?
That's right!With this example, could I be right to assume to technically "finish" the sentence, the student would've most likely said 「遅刻しました」? Now it makes sense, it's just like ので in this case
Yes, you got it right.So basically, て is the connector, and whatever could be expected to come after it gives it meaning, whether to request or to give reason.
って is usually not used for the -te form. って in 何何って or ○○って is interpreted as the colloquial form of ~というのは.When I typed 「何何て」, I knew I felt something was wrong with it and kept switching between 「○○て」 and 「何何て」, but after reading my question again, I finally figured out why I felt that way.
At least for me, having て right after the word なに sounds very unnatural, so I think if it were a Japanese person posing this question, they might've used 「何何って」 instead. There's probably a more natural way altogether to make the question, but am I right in feeling this way? If て is right next to 何 it feels like it has to be read as 「なんて」, but the two 「何」 indicate 「なになに」 so it feels contradictory and just outright wrong. I thought I would write it without っ as that's usually a property of the verb itself and technically not part of the て form. Would ○○て be better (despite the censorship connotation it has sometimes)?
Actually, it's the omission of ください or くれ that follows it.I don't think this understanding makes sense in the case of imperative use.
早く起きて
マジック豆を食べて
you don't need anything additional after it, explicit or implied.
て の解説
2[終助]活用語の連用形に付く。
3 依頼、軽い命令を表す。…てください。…てくれ。「早く来—」「私にも見せ—ね」
[補説] 2(= 終助/終助詞/sentence ending particle)は、くだけた表現、うちとけた会話に用いられる。いずれも接続助詞「て」によって導かれる文を表現しない言い方で、本来の質問・主張・命令などに比べると柔らかく、婉曲 (えんきょく) な表現になっている。
My understanding has always been that this is an implied ください or similar, not an inherent function of the て form.I don't think this understanding makes sense in the case of imperative use.
早く起きて
マジック豆を食べて
you don't need anything additional after it, explicit or implied.
Ah, I guess I never made such a connection before... Thanks for telling me. Since Japanese is the one language I've been continually learning fully consciously, it's the first time even being introduced to a concept such as imperatives and I always separated them from requests since in english, requests are usually like "can you..." which leaves room for the listener to say no easily. I guess in Japanese it's still an imperative assuming the following words would be something like ください, but if it were ~くれませんか or something, would that really still be considered an imperative? Or can that form only be used with を and not てRequests are imperatives. Advice can be as well. "Drink plenty of water."
Rude imperatives and polite imperatives are still imperatives.
Maybe not "need" but I mean like it's technically speaking, an unfinished sentence that doesn't need to be finished, because with the context the only words that make sense after て in that moment are already known. Whether it's an imperative or someone giving reason to something, it would be known what type of word or phrase could be said after it, and therefore the meaning is already understood due to the fact that it's probably obvious what they mean. Although, I'm not insisting that they spend energy thinking about not saying whatever they don't say, but what I mean is this:I don't think this understanding makes sense in the case of imperative use.
早く起きて
マジック豆を食べて
you don't need anything additional after it, explicit or implied.
I see. Maybe 何々 would just be the spoken way or something.○○ is the normal way to me. I didn't realize there was a risque connotation.
That's right!
やったーYes, you got it right.
Ahh I see, makes sense, there's that too...って is usually not used for the -te form. って in 何何って or ○○って is interpreted as the colloquial form of ~というのは.
Thanks, I guess I just wanted to put more emphasis on the blanks but I suppose that's a weird thing to do in writing. I'll use ~ from now onThe most common way to express the -te form in Japanese is ーて or ~て. The same goes with ー(or ~)た for the past form, ー(or ~)れる/られる for the potential form or ー(or ~)ば for the -ba conditional.
You need to distinguish imperative form and imperative mood. ください is the imperative form of 下さる*, but the mood can be invitation, allowance, hope, etc., as you already know. In fact, いらっしゃいませ is the imperative form of いらっしゃいます, but there is no imperative mood here, right? Similarly, the dictionary form can be an order depending on the situation.Since Japanese is the one language I've been continually learning fully consciously, it's the first time even being introduced to a concept such as imperatives and I always separated them from requests since in english, requests are usually like "can you..." which leaves room for the listener to say no easily. I guess in Japanese it's still an imperative assuming the following words would be something like ください, but if it were ~くれませんか or something, would that really still be considered an imperative? Or can that form only be used with を and not てI think it can...
That was very helpful! I did notice that some imperatives are not "aggressive" sounding basically, while some are, but now I know that the mood is what matters. I've also always thought of 「いらっしゃいませ!」 as something akin to "be welcomed!", similar to how we just say "welcome!" in English. While it's technically an imperative form (we are basically forcing someone to feel welcomed), the mood is still "nice" rather than "aggressive", so it works for polite sentences. Makes senseYou need to distinguish imperative form and imperative mood. ください is the imperative form of 下さる*, but the mood can be invitation, allowance, hope, etc., as you already know. In fact, いらっしゃいませ is the imperative form of いらっしゃいます, but there is no imperative mood here, right? Similarly, the dictionary form can be an order depending on the situation.
e.g.
teacher in a class: そこ、静かにする!(=しなさい!)
*There are two theories about the etymology of ください; the phonetic change of くだされ and the omission of ませ from くださいませ. It's considered as the imperative form, anyway.
いらっしゃいませ is an imperative form of いらっしゃいます, いらっしゃいます is a polite form of いらっしゃる, and いらっしゃる is an honorific verb of 来る.I've also always thought of 「いらっしゃいませ!」 as something akin to "be welcomed!", similar to how we just say "welcome!" in English. While it's technically an imperative form (we are basically forcing someone to feel welcomed), the mood is still "nice" rather than "aggressive", so it works for polite sentences.
なさい is an imperative form of なさる, which is an honorific verb of する. (It's considered whether it's the phonetic change of なされ or the omitted form of なさいませ, as same as ください.) Thus, さい is just a part of なさい or ください, not like "な + さい" or "くだ + さい". It's just a coincidence that the two words end with さい, similar to 逃げる vs. 投げる or "to throw" vs. "to know" in English, for example.I've been thinking about many words that use the さい form (like なさい as well)
いらっしゃる is honorific for 来る, いる, and 行く.I caught all of what you saidand I never put together the fact that なさる is する but honorific, makes sense now! I wonder if the な in なさる originates from it being attached to words that use な? (not saying that's what it was originally attached to, but just wondering if that would be something that caused it, cause I've noticed similar occurrences in other aspects of Japanese).
For いらっしゃる, I was also surprised that it's the honorific form of 来る, expecting it to be a form of いる instead. Do you know why 「~いらっしゃいますか?」 can be translated as something like "is anyone who ____ here?" ? It made me think it stemmed from いる because of that. Thanksss and sorry that this thread is getting so off topic
なさる is originally from the honorific form of なす. なす(成す/為す) and なる(成る/為る) are the transitive-intransitive verb pair, thus, なる(成る/為る) is related to なす/なさる. However, this doesn't mean that な has a meaning, and なす and なる are made from "な + す" and "な + る". Both なす and なる are a single word that can't be parsed.I wonder if the な in なさる originates from it being attached to words that use な? (not saying that's what it was originally attached to, but just wondering if that would be something that caused it, cause I've noticed similar occurrences in other aspects of Japanese).
For いらっしゃる, I was also surprised that it's the honorific form of 来る, expecting it to be a form of いる instead. Do you know why 「~いらっしゃいますか?」 can be translated as something like "is anyone who ____ here?" ? It made me think it stemmed from いる because of that.
いらっしゃる の解説
1 「行く」「来る」「居る」の尊敬語。おいでになる。「休日にはどこへ—・るのですか」「先生が—・った」「明日は家に—・いますか」
No need to apologize.Thanksss and sorry that this thread is getting so off topic
なんと便利な言葉~いらっしゃる is honorific for 来る, いる, and 行く.
Ahh okay, I see.なさる is originally from the honorific form of なす. なす(成す/為す) and なる(成る/為る) are the transitive-intransitive verb pair, thus, なる(成る/為る) is related to なす/なさる. However, this doesn't mean that な has a meaning, and なす and なる are made from "な + す" and "な + る". Both なす and なる are a single word that can't be parsed.
Well I might've asked incorrectly but I wasn't thinking that it could be related to other words that start with な but rather, words that use な to attach other words to them. Basically, I felt there was a chance that maybe long ago, な had a more universal usage, which eventually split up into more modern Japanese usages. Similar to how I can kind of tell 出来る is most likely a modern singular form of ideas that used to be "separate" in a way. When I think of the potential root meaning of 出来る, I think maybe "something (a concept?) that comes to be." 未来 also contains one same kanji, which strengthens the idea of "coming to be / coming to pass". Then for 出, I wonder if this is just the default kanji for the original で particle. As in, maybe です is just 出す with a more primitive meaning, but since it has a different spelling it has to be spelled without the kanji. At the very least, I'm fairly certain です in itself is, by technicality, a verb. I'm also fairly certain that the で particle is just です in its "unfinished" form. I could be wrong about most or all of that but basically I always wonder about how these words truly originated, because it's unlikely that they were always words from the start of the language...Also, there is no relation between なす and other words that start with な. For example, unlike 成る/為る, 鳴る has nothing to do with 成す/為す. The transitive counterpart of 鳴る is 鳴らす, not なす, and the pitch accent type of 鳴る is different from 成る/為る (while 鳴る is 無核型; the accent type is flat /ナル=/, 成る/為る is 有核型; the accent is on the first mora /ナ]ル/). The same goes with ない, 泣く, 舐める, 怠ける, 慣れる, etc..
True, but it does turn out those words are all related from the same Old(?) English roots, where a letter known as Þ・þ (thorn, uppercase/lowercase respectively) made both the unvoiced and voiced "th" sound. Indeed, the letter itself doesn't have a meaning at least now, but it would be interesting if I found out something like "that letter originated from _____ and used to mean something but became a letter after being used to form more complex words for more complex ideas." (just a made up scenario)Think about the verb "to throw" in English. You don't think that it has something to do with "to think" or "to thaw" just because all these words begin with "th", right? It's like that.
Yeah that makes sense, just had no clue before that there are honorific words that cover multiple regular words"いらっしゃる means 来る" is the only one possible interpretation here since ぜひうちへ行ってください is semantically odd, and ぜひうちへいてください is grammatically wrong. It should be ぜひうちにいらっしゃってください when いらっしゃる means いる.
No need to apologize.It's often the case that new questions arise one after another.
参る is humble for 行く, this is probably what you're thinking of. It appears often in keigo emails, but on the 謙譲語 side, not the 尊敬語 side.Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't there another honorific for 行く? Can't remember right now but I think I've seen it used in emails and such before.
Ah yes, I believe that's the one, even the elevators in Japan speak like that参る is humble for 行く, this is probably what you're thinking of. It appears often in keigo emails, but on the 謙譲語 side, not the 尊敬語 side.
Wow, so it was the complete opposite direction of what I was thinkingな is a copula-like word today to attach adjectives to things, but that evolved にある->なる->な so this is a relatively modern use and there won't be any ancient spread of it to other uses.
Indeed, indeed... It's definitely a lot more complex than I could possibly fathom, yet for some reason I still want to learn as if I could possibly come to understand it all one day... And for some reason, only Japanese sparked this kind of interest in language for me, while when I was learning Spanish (though in school), I never really had any interest beyond how the words were similar to English. Japanese history is addicting somehow...Languages are generally made up of a small number of distinct, recognizable sounds, so by necessity those sounds are regularly used for entirely unrelated meanings. On top of which, words change in pronunciation over time, so modern words that are pronounced similarly today may have been pronounced entirely differently in the past. Etymology can be fascinating, but the connections are seldom as easy as pairing up words that contain the same sound in modern pronunciation.
You can also use お越しになる or おいでになる as honorific for 行く.Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't there another honorific for 行く?
The classical form of 出来る is 出来(でく). This で is originally from the classical verb 出づ(いづ). (Incidentally, おいでになる is the honorific form of this いづ (お + masu stem (連用形) of verb + になる, e.g., お書きになる, お食べになる.))Similar to how I can kind of tell 出来る is most likely a modern singular form of ideas that used to be "separate" in a way. When I think of the potential root meaning of 出来る, I think maybe "something (a concept?) that comes to be." 未来 also contains one same kanji, which strengthens the idea of "coming to be / coming to pass". Then for 出, I wonder if this is just the default kanji for the original で particle. As in, maybe です is just 出す with a more primitive meaning, but since it has a different spelling it has to be spelled without the kanji. At the very least, I'm fairly certain です in itself is, by technicality, a verb. I'm also fairly certain that the で particle is just です in its "unfinished" form.
Ohh, interesting, I just love how many ways there are to say thingsYou can also use お越しになる or おいでになる as honorific for 行く.
The classical form of 出来る is 出来(でく). This で is originally from the classical verb 出づ(いづ). (Incidentally, おいでになる is the honorific form of this いづ (お + masu stem (連用形) of verb + になる, e.g., お書きになる, お食べになる.))
It's mindblowingいづ -attributive form (連体形)-> いづる -phonetic change-> づる -conjugation type change-> でる -masu stem (連用形)-> で
It's just amazing, the complexity of the evolution of the language, and despite what some would consider "chaos" in the formation of the language, it somehow turned out to be such a respectably cohesive and consistent language, I'm thoroughly impressedOn the other hand, the particle で is the phonetic change of にて(particle に + particle て). This particle で is indeed the etymology of です or だ. It's said that です is from で候(そうろう), でおはす, でございます, であります etc.. Thus, です is not 出す.
I figured so on that one, just makes sense if you say である fast enoughだ changed like this.
であり -attributive form (連体形)-> である -phonetic change-> であ -phonetic change-> だ
Didn't think about it before, but certainly does make sense after you've shown it to meにあり(particle に + classical verb あり) -contraction-> なり -attributive form (連体形)-> なる -phonetic change-> な
Indeed, now I definitely need to get much further into classical Japanese if I truly want to understand it on a "molecular" level... This has all been truly mindblowing to hearThis is another example where the modern pronunciation is often useless to judge the connection among words. You need to know the etymology to think about their connection, and knowledge about classical Japanese is necessary to know the etymology. Indeed both できる and です start with で in modern Japanese, but the etymologies of the two で, いづ and にて, are totally different from each other, right?
Exactly!this いづ I'm assuming is the same one as the more modern spelling 出ず?(Of course taking into account the different pronunciation that used to exist)
いず〔いづ〕【出づ】 の解説
[補説]基本的には「でる」に同じ。
Makes sense thenAnd this is why the -te form and imperative form are いでて and いでよ, not いぜて and いぜよ, respectively, even it's written as 出ず in the modern kana usage.
I see, good to know exactly when that occurred.づ and ず (and also ぢ and じ) were pronounced completely the same by the end of 16th century.
There's a station I'm going to live near soon, called 笹塚駅(ささづか). With my current understanding of the rules, wouldn't this be a disallowed spelling? Yet, I was unable to type ささずか for IME to have a clue what kanji to use (though it does work on my phone's Gboard). The station is in Tokyo and most definitely effectively pronounced "sasazuka", but there is no repeated つ or ち becoming voiced, and according to my understanding of 連濁 it would have to be さざづか for it to be acceptable to spell it that way. So now I'm confused if that rule is inaccurate or something by today's standards? Maybe I'm missing something...only the two kana じ zi and ず zu are to be used, with two notable exceptions:
- When a word exhibits sequential voicing, or rendaku, as a result of compounding, a second morpheme that would otherwise begin with the kana つ tu or ち ti in isolation (神無月 かんなづき kannaduki for which 月 in isolation is written つき tuki).
- When the kana つ tu or ち ti is repeated and voiced in a word (続く つづく tuduku).
This is your misunderstanding.according to my understanding of 連濁 it would have to be さざづか for it to be acceptable to spell it that way.
Rendaku is a phenomenon in Japanese morphophonology that governs the voicing of the initial consonant of a non-initial portion of a compound or prefixed word.
Ahh oops, though I already read a bit of the page, I guess for some reason I got confused and thought it was based on the singular kanji character doubling, and not the pronunciation, if that makes sense (even though that doesn't really make sense far down the line of thinking). I also assumed it had to be a the unvoiced version of the same consonant for some reason, but reading the rest of the examples as you've shown, that's not required. I think I understand nowSee the examples in the wikipedia page.
ひと + ひと → ひと-びと (not ひどびと)
いけ (from verb 生ける (いける)) + はな → いけばな (not いげばな)
て + かみ → て-がみ (not でがみ)
まき + すし → まき-ずし (not まぎずし)