Is Japanese "hard" to study?

Why do people studying Japanese seem to have so much stress? It's like there's always a competition amongst students of the language to see who is the "better" speaker. Who knows more kanji? Who has taken the JLPT? Who knows more keigo than the other person? Who has been told on the phone that they sound like a native speaker?

It seems like studying Japanese is a lot harder than studying other languages. Questions like the above are common and create pressure.

And are Japanese natives good at speaking with those are are non-native? Are they patient or do they make things hard on people learning Japanese?

Where does all this competition come from and is it only Japanese?

orochi:

I have and still do work with linguists that were educated in languages ranging from: Mandarin, Korean, Arabic, Somali, French, and Spanish. From my experience, most of the linguists that had grasped how to speak Eastern languages held themselves to a higher regard than those whom simply learned another European language. This pompous attitude has earned these linguists a negative reputation. On this basis, I can from a 2nd hand standpoint vouche that this concern of yours is not exclusively a Japanese language ordeal.

I had a discussion with one of the Korean linguists about it. He expressed that the dropout rate for the school they attend is high and it becomes a bit of an intellectual pride in successfully passing the course. I noted. "Yeah, but no offense. You Asian language linguists give off this impression that you think you're better than the other linguists." His reply. "Because we are."

For myself personally. I am not in such a competition against other Japanese language students. I'm not sure what makes my luck any different than most. Though I have encountered peers that have been very encouraging of my studies and helpful in helping me learn the language. I haven't met with the competitive nature that you mention in this thread. Though as stated in the example I gave beforehand, I know precisely what you're talking about as I've met people in that competitive and arrogant mindset before.

I haven't really gotten that impression. Are people who are studying Japanese really that competitive?

I am aware of a thread or two about how many kanjis they know on this forum but I don't think I detect any "Ha ha haaa~ I know more kanjis than you!" attitude in the posts. I think ppl are just curious to see where their fellow Japanese learners are in terms of progress.

Even if some competition DID exist, I think it is only natural. As long as the competition doesn't get so fierce that ppl start insulting/discouraging others, I don't see any problem at all.

lol this is a great topic. I do have to say that there does seem to be a disconnect between those who learn Japanese and other languages. At my university there was almost always a sense of competition and awareness of who was better than another or who knew kanji better... yadda yadda.

Studying Japanese more difficult and time consuming than other languages in general for English speakers. I've seen numerous references to the amount of hours it takes; however, I have to say I never received an explanation as to WHY. A year ago I started casual study of Chinese (Mandarin) and Korean. Chinese isn't to hard for me to learn so far actually, much easier than I expected (still quite hard, but easier than expected). However, Korean is a ***** to learn. I have serious problems learning that language and I'm not sure why. Because it is closer to Japanese in some ways? Maybe because of the conjugations or excessive politeness levels? I'm honestly not sure.

The competitive mindset isn't always bad as long as you keep your knowledge in context. Of course you'll always have one a-hole student in class showing off in class like him being the best at second year Japanese actually means he knows something. Next to a native speaker of course he knows NOTHING. I've studied Japanese maybe 5 years or so right now, and while I am competitive in the sense I have an understanding of where I am in relation to others' skill level and trying to push myself, I absolutely am not arrogant or thinking I'm better than anyone else or actually know Japanese well.

I'd say there are certain phases with learning Japanese that are large hurdles for the mind to get over and get past. The first being basic, sounds and grasping new words. The next being basic sentence structure. Afterwards you begin with the never ending battle of memory of remembering kanji and vocabulary much more than before. Speaking response and reaction time of course come later as well. After Kanji and vocab slow down and you get near the average required amount for a native speaker, I believe it starts to narrow down to correct grammar structure and understanding more minute differences of the words you say that set you apart from a native speaker's understanding.

I have to say though, I never saw any other students in language classes acting as quirky, competitive, or sometimes just plain weird as I have Japanese class students.

Orochi,
You're an American husband who has lived in Japan 5-10 years according to your profile (although I'm baffled by your listing of Ethnic group: Mie).

Where have you seen such fierce competition? I saw none of it in my university J classes in the USA. I see and hear none of it here in Japan.

As for it being difficult, what is your own opinion? Linguists cite Japanese as being one of the fastest spoken languages around, so that in itself makes it difficult.

As for how the locals treat foreigners, what have you learned in the last 5-10 years here? Some help, some don't. Most defer to the Japanese spouse/significant other if a foreigner is with one. Generally speaking, most J are sympathetic towards foreigners' J language attempts and don't expect them to be able to learn it at all despite the presence of people like David Spector plastered all over TV.

Looking at the situation from another point of view, I've found that more (American) people who have learned a Western European language to a certain degree are likely to declare themselves fluent when they are far from it than people learning a language that is (inaccurately) considered a more 'difficult' language.

Can't tell you how many people I've seen declare themselves fluent in Spanish or French because of a few required courses they took in high school. Of course this often comes up in the course of heated discussions about immigration and the like so the political effects the tone and tenor of it all.

This is my quick and easy conclusion after seeing sample questions of SAT, French and Japanese with Listening, but it seems to me that French questions are more demanding than those Japanese ones.
The conclusion is not because I am Japanese, but because the anticipated skills and recommended prep are similar to each others in French and Japanese.

Anticipated Skills
Wide-ranging knowledge of the language.
Recommended Prep
Two to four years of Japanese language study in high school, or the equivalent Gradual development of competence in Japanese over a period of years
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/lc_two/japanlist/japanlist.html?japanlist

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So...
1. Linguistic difficulty in each language
2. Not proper Japanese education or better French education, at least, in the US
3. Other reasons

I don't know how lucrative it is to win the MEXT scholarship for international students, but the result of EJU, Japanese as a Foreign Language, shows...
no matter how motivated you are to study in Japan, some get good scores, others...

List of Average Scores by Subject of 2008 EJU (2nd Session)
独立行政法人日本学生支援機構

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In regards to the OP.

many of the people I met studying or classmates are as you described. I've had people immediately try to correct me or point out something I have written in Kana could be written like this in Kanji, and the famous question: How many Kanji can you read.

I don't know what the fascination is with comparing but it does happen a lot. It just be competitive nature or the feeling that you have put so much hard work into something that many deem as highly difficult, it's nice to get some browning points for your work.
Then here comes the next person who everyone quickly notices may be better than you
in that same field well you want to see how well you stack up against others. I have found myself caught in that web too. Many times my wife while we were dating would tell me some Foreigner tried to pick her up in a club (she was living in Japan at the time) and I would ask "How was his Japanese?". Or another time I went to a club here in the US with a Japanese friend and she was asked to dance by some guy and she said he was speaking Japanese. I would ask "Oh, how was it?" Just curiosity for the most part but some people just take 1 to 1000 steps too far.

Oh no... people competeing against each other... lol.
Anyone who can't understand why needs to take a step back and have a look at the world.

Look at sport, statistics and anything regarding records, it is all designed to measure that particular subject. Language is no different. School is just the same, I don't think I know anyone who has not asked their friends what they got on their SATS.

If you have taken any kind of tests for a language then you are subscribing to the fact that you want your level assesed, whether or not you choose to let people know what level you are will be based on how confindent you are with your abilities or lack of you are playing the same game. So get over the fact that most people like comparing themselves with others as it gives them motivation to get better if they ask someone "how many knaji they know" and they know more than themselves or if they themselves know more than the other person.

I have no problem with competition. It's when people use comparison to make themselves feel better. Just b/c you know more Kanji then the next person doesn't make you a better person in general, could be various reasons why that next person knows less.

But your knowledge shouldn't be means of ego inflation. It's Ego's that ruin social study groups and the like. I am merely pointing there are alot of people that study a language with Ego problems.

Damicci said:

I have no problem with competition. It's when people use comparison to make themselves feel better. Just b/c you know more Kanji then the next person doesn't make you a better person in general, could be various reasons why that next person knows less.

But your knowledge shouldn't be means of ego inflation. It's Ego's that ruin social study groups and the like. I am merely pointing there are alot of people that study a language with Ego problems.

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I was actually dirrecting the post at the OP.

But in response, of course people do it it to feel better, whether they show it or not is up to them. I personlay don't care if someone asks me how much kanji I know or how fast I can run the 200m in.

For the sake of curiosity I don't mind it either. I like talking with others who study Japanese, maybe I can learn some new tips or something. But the folks who just want to brag and build themselves up. They can take a hike.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that when I said "student" I did not mean only university. I meant anybody learning Japanese as a second (or foreign) language.

Damicci said:

For the sake of curiosity I don't mind it either. I like talking with others who study Japanese, maybe I can learn some new tips or something. But the folks who just want to brag and build themselves up. They can take a hike.

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I don't get it, what is wrong with being proud of your achievements? I have yet to meet someone who has literaly rubbed it in someones face that they were better than the other person. Eg,

Student A: How have you been studing Japanese?
Student B: About 2 years.
Student A: What level are you in the JLPT?
Student B: I just passed level 2. How about you?
Student A: Level 2... I just passed level 1 and have studied for 2 years. Ha,Ha.. you must really suck at Japanese
Student B: Thanks for nothing....

But I have heard many conversations like this.

Student A: How have you been studing Japanese?
Student B: About 2 years.
Student A: What level are you in the JLPT?
Student B: I just passed level 2.
Student A: I just passed level 1 and I started studing about one and a half years ago.
Student B: Wow thats great.
Student A: Thanks, I also passed level 6 on the kanji kentei、I just love Japanese. I am also quite good a speaking ,or so I am told. Most people cannot tell I am not Japanese when I speak to them on the phone.
Student B: That is really great I hope I can pass level 1 soon...

Now the second situation is more realistic and student A is deffinately looking for someone to recognise his/her achievements ,but I have never heard someone put another person down for not being as good as themselves.
So to anyone who thinks the second situation is being smug or can't handle that , then you need restrict all contact from the outside world, b/c you certainly won't be able to handle human contact in the future with other people studing Japanese.

We have different point of views I understand yours and have already said I agree with being proud about what you accomplish. I'm done.

Personally, when I lived in Japan I found the spoken language very easy to learn as it is not as difficult as some trick themselves into believing, and katagana and hiragana were a breeze to learn. Kanji took some time, but it is all not that difficult as many foreigners make it to be. Granted, living in Japan made it much more easier, but the foreign student must learn not to get intimidated by the written language and many seem fall into that trap and they hurt themselves when learning to speak it I believe.

To fully learn a language like Japanese, one must be exposed to it on a daily basis or at least have access to it often with a native speaker to correct you for, as once you learn bad habits, especially in pronunciation, they will be very hard to overcome and will stay with you forever.

Sure, I knew people who learned the language faster than I, but they often sounded like walking textbooks and had nary a clue as to how to speak to a native in slang and informal language. Although they were understood by the Japanese, it was often commented that their language ability was "odd and strange" in that it was too formal and "structured" and not at all natural. But that's what usually happens when one learns in their own country or at language schools in Japan without interacting with native Japanese often.

It is very difficult, IMO, to learn a foreign language fluently and conversationally in a foreign country unless you have daily access to a native speaker and limit your own native language speaking ability. Not very easy living in your own country.

And yes, there was usually competition among foreigners, even in Japan, as to how many kanji one knew and how "well" one spoke the language, but I always had the opinion that it was not how many kanji one knew or wrote or how formal one could speak, but who could sit down with an ordinary Japanese person and converse on their level and "rank" and conduct their daily life in Japanese including filling out forms in Japanese at a bank, post office, city hall, ward office, going shopping, taking a taxi, or buying a train pass, etc which seemed more important to me than the numerous kanji I would hardly need in daily life.

The Japanese are very tolerent of foreigners who are learning their language, and the fact that you are even attempting to learn it and can speak it to a certain degree, puts you way up on their scale due to their own psychlogical mental block to learning foreign languages and their false psychological assumption that Japanese is too difficult to learn.

Live in Japan for a year or more, stay away from foreigners and English speaking places, limit your English speaking and you will learn the language quickly enough as you will have no other choice as you will learn or suffer the consequences.

Damicci said:

We have different point of views I understand yours and have already said I agree with being proud about what you accomplish. I'm done.

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Sorry , that was not meant to be a stab at you..

Pachipro said:

And yes, there was usually competition among foreigners, even in Japan, as to how many kanji one knew and how "well" one spoke the language, but I always had the opinion that it was not how many kanji one knew or wrote or how formal one could speak, but who could sit down with an ordinary Japanese person and converse on their level and "rank" and conduct their daily life in Japanese including filling out forms in Japanese at a bank, post office, city hall, ward office, going shopping, taking a taxi, or buying a train pass, etc which seemed more important to me than the numerous kanji I would hardly need in daily life.

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I agree, but even if yours or my veiw on what constitutes being good in the language still enables that competion of who is better in that respect of the language.

I'd like to respond to the OP's question about competitive attitude among students of languages other than Japanese.

I think it is present in every language to a certain degree.

If you visit the online message board 2 Channel and check out any English related threads, ppl are constantly comparing TOEIC scores, correcting each others and yes, often putting others down for their low scores/mistakes. 2 Channel being a troll-infested chaos it is, you cannot really take what you see there as an indication of the general attitudes among all the English learners in Japan, though.

As Dave and some others have said, I think it is only natural and not necessarily a bad thing to compare yourself to others in terms of progress in your study. It is also natural for someone to want to tell others how much progress you have made and how proud you are of it.

Sure, it may get annoying if someone goes on and on and on about it, but this is something you encounter in life outside language learning anyway. It could be about anything. How much money you make, the houses you live in, how good looking your significant others are, etc. We deal with ppl being competitive all the time. I think most of us can handle it fine.

ASHIKAGA said:

As Dave and some others have said, I think it is only natural and not necessarily a bad thing to compare yourself to others in terms of progress in your study. It is also natural for someone to want to tell others how much progress you have made and how proud you are of it.
Sure, it may get annoying if someone goes on and on and on about it, but this is something you encounter in life outside language learning anyway. It could be about anything. How much money you make, the houses you live in, how good looking your significant others are, etc. We deal with ppl being competitive all the time. I think most of us can handle it fine.

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My sentiments exactly!!!

But I have a feeling the OP is just venting and is not really interested in what people have to say... I could be wrong ,but usually someone who is interested will reply to what has been said, and so far I don't see any intrest or interaction at all...

I knew this was just a vent, the OP is a joke...

orochi said:

Why do people studying Japanese seem to have so much stress? It's like there's always a competition amongst students of the language to see who is the "better" speaker. Who knows more kanji? Who has taken the JLPT? Who knows more keigo than the other person? Who has been told on the phone that they sound like a native speaker?
It seems like studying Japanese is a lot harder than studying other languages. Questions like the above are common and create pressure.
And are Japanese natives good at speaking with those are are non-native? Are they patient or do they make things hard on people learning Japanese?
Where does all this competition come from and is it only Japanese?

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As a person who is just starting, I will tell you what I do.

1) We have so much stress because we are building the foundation. Laziness sets up bad habits and is detrimental towards language. Now, Japanese is an extremely complex language and what doesn't help is that it's opposite to English...dynamic sentences and all that do NOT HELP. In trying to hone my basic sentence skills--which will set up my later skills, imagine me typing this in Japanese!--I need to be hard on myself now.
2) Better speaker implies one who knows a lot. One who knows a lot has put in a lot of effort over time. Speaking is more complex than writing and is done improvisational...
3) Who knows more kanji and JLPT doesn't mean much to me now. I know ~350-400 and I can't use a lot of them. But if I were to piece together...it helps.
4) I hope I never get told I sound like a native speaker. I want to be good but not...that good. It may sound weird, I know. It's just something personal. I like to be second best, never first.
5) A person who I asked questions in Japanese was himself not a native and a huge ******* ******* to me when I was just learning hiragana, katakana, and had questions on the sentence structure. He probably saw himself as an elite, a gaijin who had learned Japanese and didn't want anyone else to. I ******* HATE people like that. To control knowledge because you want to feel special is nothing but ****.
6) As a person who has delved into German, Italian...I don't think it's just Japanese. I'm in Biochem and subjects of that matter and it's damn competitive, and you bet your butt that chemistry and anatomy have "languages" of their own.

--e

look at all them stars.

FrustratedDave said:

I knew this was just a vent, the OP is a joke...

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Please stop trolling.

There's been some very interesting comments on this thread.
Thanks everybody!

lol, Dave doesn't troll, he's just always grumpy like that. Cool off now~

orochi said:

Please stop trolling.
There's been some very interesting comments on this thread.
Thanks everybody!

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Where are your comments? Where are your opinions? Actually I think it is quite rude not responding to a thread you created, but that is just me.

Well, I think Japanese is not hard to study if you just do things properly, tidily... some people get upset because start studying it more than once 'cause don't know how to continue and so on.

Also you must like it; if you study Japanese for several purposes that not include the liking to it, you'll find it hard to study for sure.