is it possible to write in japanese with no Kanji?

[Zlarp]

Why do I defend them? Because they're awesome and they're extremely helpful when learning the language. It doesn't take that long to learn them if you actually *try* and once you know them they're like little in-built dictionaries and etymology lookups built into the text itself. Also, I'm not feeling the "need". I don't think Kanji need to be defended from the likes of you since you have no actual say whatsoever. There have been people with actual power who have attempted to change things the way you are suggesting and they failed just as badly as you at having any effect whatsoever on actual reality.

Now, as for the Japanese people's English, that's to be attributed more to their horrid teaching methods than anything else. Same reasons why Japanese classes for foreigners suck so badly, pretty much.

 

[Glenski]

Even though we don't read our language phonetically, as you say, we're still heckuva lot slower than people reading Japanese. And yes, Japanese people might ask each other how to write a Kanji. English speakers, however, never, ever have to ask each other how to spell a word, making the language far superior.

Pardon me, but what planet are you from?

Slower? What support do you have for such a statement?
Never ask how to spell a word in English? Hah!

 

[Zlarp]

Pardon me, but what planet are you from?

Slower? What support do you have for such a statement?
Never ask how to spell a word in English? Hah!

For the first question (not the rhetorical one that's supposed to discredit me by sheer force of your undoubtedly powerful and awesome personality): ﾂ【ﾅｽﾃ?窶ｹﾂｵﾂ】ﾆ辰ﾆ段ﾆ炭ﾆ筑ﾆ辰ﾆ椎槌置ﾆ停?? 窶ｹﾂｺﾋ?絶?堙個侵窶板ｪﾅｽﾃ ﾆ置ﾆ椎?ﾆ旦ﾂーﾆ檀 part1 ﾂ‐ ﾆ男ﾆ坦ﾆ男ﾆ坦窶慊ｮ窶ｰﾃｦ:Q -> watch this guy read out loud. And he could obviously read this faster if he didn't have to talk. Or watch Japanese TV and look at all those flashing messages that are on screen for maybe half a second. That's my "support"

As for the second question, that's a rhetorical device called "irony". You can read more about it here: Irony - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mark of Zorro]

There have been people with actual power who have attempted to change things the way you are suggesting and they failed just as badly as you at having any effect whatsoever on actual reality.

You seem to be blissfully unaware of how much Japanese writing has changed over time. Kanji is slowly being eliminated. Its a natural process of shifting from the archaic to the practical.

and once you know them they're like little in-built dictionaries and etymology lookups built into the text itself.

You are dreaming. Most new kanji combos are completely cryptic even if you know the kanji. Looking back after finding the meaning and saying "naruhodo!", and then retroactively pretending you guessed at the meaning beforehand is a logical error I bet you have committed a few hundred times.

Now, as for the Japanese people's English, that's to be attributed more to their horrid teaching methods than anything else.

Preaching to the choir. Still, the lack of time dedicated to English is very significant, and part of the reason is because of time being hogged by kanji study.

And Zlarp, you need to re-read that bit that Glenski quoted. We don't get it, even considering irony and sarcasm, things we are well aware of. You just are not doing it right.

---------- Post added at 20:06 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------

I don't think Kanji need to be defended from the likes of you since you

The likes of you?

Grow up.

 

[Zlarp]

The things you are saying are nice and all, but you do know that you're actually quite wrong, right? I mean, either you're wrong or you're lying your pretty little behind off, though I can't see why anyone would do that. Wait, internet forums, nevermind.

How exactly is a random list to cut down on Kanji use introduced mostly because of foreign pressure a natural process? How is it that nobody who writes Japanese actually seems to give a damn about that list? How come they keep adding characters to said list?

And while the dictionary thing doesn't work for a lot of words, it works for enough of them, and for the others it still makes it ridiculously easy to remember them because you only have to memorize an arrangement of a few characters that is very unique and has lots of useful connotations that help memory.

And yeah, the likes of you. Believe it or not, but I've met people like you before. I much prefer the ilk of Mike Cash when it comes to arguing on internet forums

 

[Glenski]

Irony.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.
Oh, one video does not a typical person make.

 

[Zlarp]

Irony.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.
Oh, one video does not a typical person make.

Yeah, it might actually have been sarcasm, apologies. Do you want the wikipedia link for that, too?
And am I interpreting you correctly when I read what you just said as "the typical Japanese person can't read that fast"? Or did you just not watch the video? I mean neither bode well for your argument, but still.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Zlarp, you need to get a handle on your arrogance. You can't argue on the basis of that and not much else and expect to be taken seriously.

How exactly is a random list to cut down on Kanji use introduced mostly because of foreign pressure a natural process?

Don't put words in my mouth. Especially when they are a misconception you believe.

There is however a general misconception that the attempt to abolish kanji through the modernization of kana usage and issuance of a list containing only a limited number of accepted kanji originated from the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers during the Occupation of Japan, though a plan had already been put into place prior to the occupation.

Japanese script reform - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How come they keep adding characters to said list?

I never said that the transition would consist of no ebbs and flows or peaks and troughs or ups and downs. Nor did I say it would be sudden. We may not live to see this crazy writing system completely reformed. But surely, it will or Japanese will become more and more obscure until it disappears.

And while the dictionary thing doesn't work for a lot of words, it works for enough of them, and for the others it still makes it ridiculously easy to remember them because you only have to memorize an arrangement of a few characters that is very unique and has lots of useful connotations that help memory.

Like a lot of people, what you think is "neat" is clouding your judgment of what is actually practical and useful. Its like the fascination a teenager has with kung-fu movies, dreaming of one day being able to stand on an outstretched sword held up by another person and never mind physics or reality. Not to say kung-fu or kanji has no practical application, but you over-emphasize and exaggerate those applications and imagine them as things they are not.

Back when no one else had a writing system at all, kanji was great. Now that there are better writing systems, its a hindrance.

 

[Zlarp]

I never said that the plan to abolish kanji originated from outside Japan, I said that it was a result of foreign pressure. Now what words did *I* put in *your* mouth again?

And where's your ebb and flow? What we've seen is a single bit of ebb and lots and lots of flow. If I'm wrong about this, please tell me? Where exactly have kanji ever been cut from the joyo list?

Your predictions on the future of Japan and its language are duly noted, Mr. Nostradamus. You seem to be calling what you do science, experience, and knowledge, yet I still haven't seen you present a single shred of actual evidence.

About thinking something is "neat": Kung-fu movies are awesome as well, however, you're completely short-circuiting the thought process going into that statement when you say that a fascinated watcher of kung-fu movies dreams of actually doing the things that they see. I can't see how you arrived at that conclusion except by simplifying an entire genre of movies into nonexistence under some general umbrella term like "escapism". Your obsession with "practicality" borderlines on the psychotic and your perceived "hindrances" are as subjective as anything could possibly be.

And you top it all off with calling me arrogant, despite basing your entire argument on the fact that you wish to change an entire culture's writing system, while I'm only trying to show you a different viewpoint and why your idea might not be so good after all. Your claim to universality is ludicrous and any Linguist with even a shred of sense in them will tell you that from the get-go. Prescriptive practices are something people used to do in the 50's, and not even they mixed that up with some hanebüchen form of colonialism.

 

[Macrobiotic]

For me personally kanji has a logic in themselves, similar to the function of greek and latin in western languages.

I once learned english without speaking to a single english speaking person, just by reading. My reference then was my own native language of swedish, which shares much of the syntax with english although we (unlike norwegian) use german and french derived, rather than english, vocabulary for the most part.

When learning japanese, I also learn through mostly reading. Kanji has helped me greatly understanding the roots of words and the logic of the language since I have no other references the way I had with swedish when learning english. Today, sometimes when I hear a spoken word in japanese I can sense the conceptual meaning of the sounds it contains and also have a good guess at what kanji must be used. My japanese friend said that japanese people make this connection so naturally many times they don't even think about it.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I never said that the plan to abolish kanji originated from outside Japan, I said that it was a result of foreign pressure.

That makes zero sense. So naturally, I have no idea what you are talking about. Prove this part about foreign pressure.

Now what words did *I* put in *your* mouth again?

I never said anything about foreign pressure. You did. And you acted like I did

And where's your ebb and flow? What we've seen is a single bit of ebb and lots and lots of flow. If I'm wrong about this, please tell me? Where exactly have kanji ever been cut from the joyo list?

Do you think the joyo list was the only kanji reform measure? The joyo list ITSELF was a cutting of kanji!

And not all disuse of kanji is official. There are plenty of words that are all kana that could be given a kanji but aren't.

Official kanji reform began in Meiji, and it included eliminations of kanji. Are you going to tell us that was the result of foreign pressure?

Your predictions on the future of Japan and its language are duly noted, Mr. Nostradamus. You seem to be calling what you do science, experience, and knowledge, yet I still haven't seen you present a single shred of actual evidence.

Then try to stop ignoring the evidence I have presented! The histories of Korean and Ancient Egyptian were evidence for my prediction. The fact that most languages today do not use pictograms if they ever did was evidence. Even the fact that there have been attempts that failed is evidence! It shows a desire to move forward. There will be more attempts, and they may also fail. But as soon as one takes hold, it is unlikely there will be a going back.

Plus Japan does not use all kanji available. The gradual elimination of kanji in the Japanese language began the instant Japanese imported them from China!

Your obsession with "practicality" borderlines on the psychotic and your perceived "hindrances" are as subjective as anything could possibly be.

Obsession with practicality? That is about the most absurd thing I have ever heard! Wanting to make an everyday thing like writing practical is hardly evidence of an obsession or borderline psychosis! And if you do not understand that, perhaps you will realize that I am far from the only person wanting to do the same!

Frankly, you sound to me like a guy who rejects the use of a washing machine because you like to take your walks to the river to beat your clothes with a stone. I would not mind so much except that you want to deny us all that washing machine!

And you top it all off with calling me arrogant,

If I am arrogant its over an idea. But your arrogance is toward me. Its a fat difference. Grow up.

despite basing your entire argument on the fact that you wish to change an entire culture's writing system, while I'm only trying to show you a different viewpoint and why your idea might not be so good after all. Your claim to universality is ludicrous and any Linguist with even a shred of sense in them will tell you that from the get-go. Prescriptive practices are something people used to do in the 50's, and not even they mixed that up with some hanebüchen form of colonialism.

I am well aware of your viewpoint and was aware well before you spoke it. I have considered it. I have considered it all for a long time. You have presented evidence, but its been few and thin. Its also been of minor use and importance. You exaggerate it all. So I can only conclude that you think kanji is neato, and I am sorry, but that is nothing on the need for practicality.

I will also add to this debate that women used to write all in hiragana and the Tale of Genji was written all in hiragana during that time. So it can be done, has been done, and was done to great effect.

And, YET AGAIN, we have evidence of how kanji was used to keep a class of people down. Kanji sucks.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Hell, you know, just this discussion coming up is another black mark against kanji!

Does anyone speak of replacing phonetic alphabets with pictograms? Don't make me laugh!

 

[BrianLewis]

but because stupid people learned to read the protestant reformation one of the worst things in human history that ever had happened!

All this could have been avoided if simply the printing press was not invented by white people so that sola scripta one of the founding basis of this reformation could not exist!

This is a joke right? I can't quite tell.

There have been people with actual power who have attempted to change things the way you are suggesting and they failed just as badly as you at having any effect whatsoever on actual reality.

Several examples were cited about countries that were successful. A good example where no "Western influence" was also cited.