is it possible to write in japanese with no Kanji?

[Tony Jiang]

so is it possible to do so? Because i remember once on an amazon discussion about Chinese characters some guy had said this " The point is that Japanese people don't speak in kanji (except, occasionally, in describing kanji, but that's a function of the fact that the writing system actually uses kanji, not of the indispensibility of kanji).

If one can say it and be understood, one can adapt one's writing to more closely match spoken Japanese and solve these issues. Kana IS sufficient as a representation of spoken Japanese"

But i thought the problem with Kana was that it represents only sound, and that no matter how closely it matches spoken Japanese it will result in confusion thanks to many words that sound alike ?

---------- Post added at 01:17 ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 ----------

oops can some one put this post to the language section thanks!

 

[Toritoribe]

Need a word or phrase translated?
Using only Kanji and Katakana (new to this forum)
English -> Romaji translator...

 

[Tony Jiang]

no thanks i don't actually need a word translated i just have some questions about Japanese grammar and why both Kanji and Kana is used

 

[Toritoribe]

Did you ACTUALLY read the posts I linked above? There are answers in the threads for your QUITE FREQUENTLY asked question.

 

[Tony Jiang]

i did (but not the first one, at first i thought it was a translator) but i still have a question about the fellow whom i quoted that said all that weird stuff about adopting writing to fit spoken Japanese? does it even make any sense?
Because i cant seem to put into words on what is wrong with what that fellow said

found the quotation here: Care about a Chinese opinion?

 

[Glenski]

People don't speak in kanji? Uh, well, phonetically speaking, they don't, but in terms of linguistic imagery and meaning they sure do. Put it this way: do you speak in the actual English pronounced spelling of words (using the 26 letters of the alphabet, that is) or do you speak with the phonetic symbols from a dictionary in mind? It's the former, more or less.

Now as to your question, yes, it is possible to write Japanese without kanji. Either use katakana or hiragana alone (you may need both). Children's books start that way, you know. Plus, you could write this way as an adult, but it would be longer (hence the use of kanji) and strange to locals.

 

[Tony Jiang]

excellent reply! but i think the guy i quoted came from the John De Francis school of Hanzi/Kanji (his ideas are absolutely ludicrous)

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Yes, its possible. And homonyms can mostly be sorted by context. After all, that is how we sort spoken homonyms because kanji does not come out of people's mouths!

The biggest problem with writing in kana alone is that Japan has no universal rules for doing it and no one is even thinking or trying to make them consistent and practical. For example, when spaces are used often people run the particles together with nouns and other words. We separate the particles in English and it makes a huge difference. Japanese don't seem to appreciate this, and children's books are hell to read for it.

For example, in English, we would write: The book is on my desk, not "Thebook is onmydesk.

But in Japanese they would usually write: Honwa watashino tsukeno ueni arimasu (ほんは わたしの つくえの うえに あります。） not "Hon wa watashi no tsukue no ue ni arimasu." (ほん は わたし の つくえ の うえ に あります。 <--much easier to read! ）

There are other points as well and since the Japanese have made no effort to properly address them you almost never see text that is all kana. Its almost like they want to frustrate you so much with all kana that you will bend over for the kanji!

And its a shame too, because written Japanese has become a mish-mash of gobbledy-gook that will one day be looked back on as being as archaic and unintelligible as ancient Egyptian (same sort of mish-mash), which took a Rosetta Stone for anyone to understand, with few bothering.

Japan seems to be insisting on the road to obscurity.

 

[Tony Jiang]

than why do you still write with kanji if the homophone problem is so easily solved? also context does not work when you cant figure what the context actually is .....

 

[Mark of Zorro]

than why do you still write with kanji if the homophone problem is so easily solved?

By way of being stubborn and unimaginative and by clinging to the past.

also context does not work when you cant figure what the context actually is .....

But you usually do, or else the spoken word would be unintelligible.

Some adaptations will have to be made. That I do not deny. If I just wrote kumo (くも or クモ） you would not know if I meant spider or cloud. But there are solutions to the problem. For example katakana for one and hiragana for the other, just like we spell different words differently in English, like bear and bare.

But usually you can tell because generally you say "kumo ga aru" when saying there is a cloud, and "kumo ga iru" when speaking of a spider. Ways of knowing words by context are common everyday things in every language. There are so many and they are so omnipresent they are like things hidden in plain sight.

Its really not such a beast unless one's head is hard as stone.

 

[Glenski]

than why do you still write with kanji if the homophone problem is so easily solved? also context does not work when you cant figure what the context actually is .....

Because sometimes context doesn't help, and it's much faster to see the kanji and get the meaning anyway.

But kanji is not just for sorting out homophones.

Look a little at Wikipedia to get a handle on the history of kanji and hiragana.

 

[Zlarp]

I've been watching Japanese TV and sometimes there's messages flashing for maybe half a second or less. I severely doubt anybody could ever read that in Kana this quickly. (I'm still having trouble believing you can do it in Kanji myself, but I've actually had it happen to me once or twice now. You just see the text for an extremely short amount of time and immediately know what it said without properly "reading" it at all. It's magic.)

 

[Tony Jiang]

By way of being stubborn and unimaginative and by clinging to the past.

but couldn't you say the same about every language? I mean i could easily simplify English by cutting down 5 letters from the alphabet, so when people rally against my idea are they being stubborn unimaginative and clinging to the past? Besides id say Chinese characters prevent a language from getting unimaginative by protecting it from too many loan words from English or any other language....too bad the Japanese just loooove English for some reason..

 

[Mark of Zorro]

but couldn't you say the same about every language? I mean i could easily simplify English by cutting down 5 letters from the alphabet, so when people rally against my idea are they being stubborn unimaginative and clinging to the past?

Yes to both. But its the one that is stuck further back in the past with more restrictive archaic ideas that I will sooner label stubborn and clinging to the past. In no way am I denying the problems with written English. The letters X, C. and Q are only aesthetically useful. But mostly people cling to them because they grew up with them.

Besides id say Chinese characters prevent a language from getting unimaginative by protecting it from too many loan words from English or any other language....too bad the Japanese just loooove English for some reason..

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. The meanings of words are somewhat built into the kanji, so the meanings don't change or adjust as freely. In English words can completely morph their meanings, and that allows for more adaptation to changes over time. The rigidity of Japanese has in fact INSPIRED the use of loan words, and often times, its those words the Japanese have mangled in some way to fit what they want to say. Without loan words, the Japanese language would be about as progressive as jelly. In fact, Japan itself would be. Heck, look at China and how far behind they are in so many modern aspects, despite being a superpower of over 1 billion people. They only just recently put people into space and are still working on their own aircraft carrier.

Japan has massively benefited for at least having easy to use phonetic characters in their writing system even if still held back by mixing them with kanji. Next they need to ditch the kanji altogether. South Korea did it.






---------- Post added at 13:33 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

I've been watching Japanese TV and sometimes there's messages flashing for maybe half a second or less. I severely doubt anybody could ever read that in Kana this quickly.

Don't. Native speakers (readers) of any language do not phonetically read words except in the early stages. We all sight read words, and after a time of getting used to all kana text, that is exactly what they would do.

I can prove this point. Read this: Evoreybdy leovs my chipnaamzee. He deos bafkcilps for bnaanas.

You could read it because you sight read it.

In fact, if I have ever seen anyone struggle over the pronunciation of words in their own language, it has been Japanese struggling to figure out if a kanji should be read onyomi or kunyomi in a certain case. Plus they have to ask each other how to write kanji sometimes. Its a horribly clunky writing system.

About the only advantage in what you said is that those messages on the TV screen require less physical space. Its hardly worth it when all the disadvantages are stacked up.

(I'm still having trouble believing you can do it in Kanji myself, but I've actually had it happen to me once or twice now. You just see the text for an extremely short amount of time and immediately know what it said without properly "reading" it at all. It's magic.)

Its everyday magic in every language. Its just a product of memorization.

 

[Tony Jiang]

I think you have the wrong end of the. Heck, look at China and how far behind they are in so many modern aspects, despite being a superpower of over 1 billion people. They only just recently put people into space and are still working on their own aircraft carrier.

.

what are you talking about ONLY recently put people into space? Most countrys cant even imagine doing that, and as well very few countries have aircraft carriers, China is plenty modern

 

[Mark of Zorro]

what are you talking about ONLY recently put people into space? Most countrys cant even imagine doing that, and as well very few countries have aircraft carriers, China is plenty modern

Most countries are not superpowers. You seem to have neglected that vital caveat. Nobody expects Denmark to have carriers or put people into space. They are not a superpower.

 

[Zlarp]

Even though we don't read our language phonetically, as you say, we're still heckuva lot slower than people reading Japanese. And yes, Japanese people might ask each other how to write a Kanji. English speakers, however, never, ever have to ask each other how to spell a word, making the language far superior. In fact, it would make so much more sense for all of us to just write everything in phonetic script!

Your arguments are ridiculous. You're trying to turn an evolved language on its head by adding your own ridiculous, half-baked idea that you have considered for maybe a few years, as a single person. You seem to be absolutely ignorant about how language actually works. Even the people who made Esperanto had more sense than this.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Zlarp, I guess you are talking to me?

I can't make much sense of your post, sorry. Where does the sarcasm start and where does it end? You sure you did not forget to add a negative or two?

And just how many words are you trying to shove in my mouth? I really don't know.

Sorry, but there really are a boatload of good reasons why most languages in the world are no longer written with pictograms, and why the transition has been from pictograms to phonetic alphabets and never the other way around. Kanji sucks. However interesting it is for people to introvertedly get wrapped up in that man-made rabbit hole of a writing system, however much people might appreciate its artistic merits, as a writing system for every man for every day use, kanji sucks. It sucks hard.

In fact, the reasons why the Korean alphabet was banned not long after it was invented and introduced was because people were getting literate and the nobility didn't like it! The very point of kanji for them was to keep people ignorant and down-trodden! Kanji sucks!

I have been in and out of Japan and studying Japanese for about twenty years. I did not wake up one morning with an idea only to confirm it a few years later.

I have plenty of criticisms of written English too, so much so that I have my own alphabet which is intertwined with my own sign language which is also more phonetically sound and consistent than English. I have analyzed all this, turned it over and upside down, and if you don't like my opinion, that's tuff $#!T. Kanji sucks.

---------- Post added at 18:49 ---------- Previous post was at 18:42 ----------

Even though we don't read our language phonetically, as you say, we're still heckuva lot slower than people reading Japanese.

No we aren't.

English speakers, however, never, ever have to ask each other how to spell a word, making the language far superior.

We use dictionaries, and we use them with great ease. Ever picked up a kanji dictionary? Ever not known the meaning of a multi-kanji word and tried to get its meaning?

Man, if I wanted be a friggen code breaker, I would have joined the military!

 

[BrianLewis]

You are right. There is no good reason that Japan cannot adopt a purely phonetic system, provided they adopt spaces. The thing that gives me a headache more than anything else is reading something in Japanese that has no spaces and no Kanji. Yes, you can read faster once you know enough Kanji, and it is quite an artistic language at that, however you have to consider or speculate on how many years of education is put towards the system. Would those resources be better put towards something else? I would have to think that it would be. I can also suppose that higher level literacy is more of an issue with such a system, but I have no statistics on that.

I agree with Zorro, the Korean system addressed those same issues and did a beautiful job of it. It was actually done in the Joseon dynasty, so it is both North and South Korea that have used the phonetic system.

You can learn the language purely through conversation, however if you plan to read anything, your going to need to learn the Kanji. It's not a simple matter of not conforming; there is just nothing being printed for adults that is not using Kanji, at least until the government attempts an overhaul of the language. I don't expect that happening until there is some sort of crisis involving illiteracy.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

You're trying to turn an evolved language on its head by adding your own ridiculous, half-baked idea that you have considered for maybe a few years, as a single person.

You must be joking. My ideas are based on centuries of experience of other people.

Ancient Egyptian evolved to Coptic, from pictograms to phonetics. I already mentioned Korean. Today the chief languages using pictograms are Chinese and Japanese. There is no reason why written Japanese cannot be phonetic as well as practical, more practical than using kanji. You might make a good case for Chinese sticking with kanji, but not Japanese.

I have considered many ways to eliminate kanji from Japanese. I mentioned spaces and varied use of the two kanas. I have also suggested that loan words be written in romaji. And while that would be a mish-mash of another kind, it would still be better. It would bust the number of basic characters used to the basic 92 kana (not counting variations) and 26 to 52 roman letters depending on if caps are used or not and also not counting the extra 52 cursives. It would be a hell of lot better than having literally thousands of characters to memorize just to read and write at a high level.

Use of accent marks could also help. Even simple underlines could help distinguish homonyms.

But you know, damned easy to just sit back, criticize and declare it cannot be done! Damned to easy to offer no help or suggestions but just scream "Your wrong!". Try proving you can do something more than any idiot can do, eh?

 

[Tony Jiang]

Most countries are not superpowers. You seem to have neglected that vital caveat. Nobody expects Denmark to have carriers or put people into space. They are not a superpower.

but china was only the third country to put people in space with their own program..yes very backwards and as well why do you hate Kanji so much

---------- Post added at 17:50 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------

Ihe very point of kanji for them was to keep people ignorant and down-trodden! Kanji sucks!

Kanji sucks.

but first of all i dont think stupid people should be able to read and second of all Kanji does not suck it makes learned Chinese easier and it also would have pre 1945 made learning viet and korean easier and be able to read their writings at least some 70 percent of the time with no problems besides chinese charcters represent MEANING which is superior to mere sounds...

 

[BrianLewis]

but first of all i dont think stupid people should be able to read

That's how you end up with a caste system. Also, small towns or farming villages might not have anyone that could read postings about serious issues, like an epidemic.

 

[Zlarp]

Wait, people are saying that the Japanese can't read now? Statistics say literacy in Japan is a lot higher than in the US, go look for an argument to change a perfectly fine system somewhere else -_-

 

[Tony Jiang]

That's how you end up with a caste system. Also, small towns or farming villages might not have anyone that could read postings about serious issues, like an epidemic.

but because stupid people learned to read the protestant reformation one of the worst things in human history that ever had happened!

All this could have been avoided if simply the printing press was not invented by white people so that sola scripta one of the founding basis of this reformation could not exist!

 

[Mark of Zorro]

but china was only the third country to put people in space with their own program..yes very backwards and as well why do you hate Kanji so much

Could you just open your ears and listen for half a second? I did not say China was "backward". I said for a SUPERPOWER China was behind.

I am NOT comparing COUNTRIES. I am comparing SUPERPOWERS. I am NOT INSULTING China. I admit China is a superpower after all.

Now if you GROW UP and stop looking for EXCUSES to feel insulted, you MIGHT learn something.

but first of all i dont think stupid people should be able to read

Which would only ensure they are even more stupid than they needed to be.

and second of all Kanji does not suck it makes learned Chinese easier

It fits Chinese more than any other language, that is for sure. But kanji is big reason why I will not bother trying to learn Chinese.


a

nd it also would have pre 1945 made learning viet and korean easier and be able to read their writings at least some 70 percent of the time with no problems

Well that is your opinion.

besides chinese charcters represent MEANING which is superior to mere sounds...

One single advantage does not make anything superior.

I never said kanji had no advantages. What I said was that when you stack up the disadvantages, kanji sucks.

But hey, its obvious that you have a tendency to get fixated on certain points rather than look at the big picture, so I don't think you will ever understand anything a person with holistic tendencies tries to tell you.

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Wait, people are saying that the Japanese can't read now? Statistics say literacy in Japan is a lot higher than in the US, go look for an argument to change a perfectly fine system somewhere else -_-

America does not represent the world literacy rate for phonetic alphabets.

And it is well known that Japanese schools work over-time teaching reading and writing, much more time than places with phonetic alphabets. Its also well known that despite tons of money poured into English classes for all students, that Japanese in general really suck at English. Perhaps if they did not have to spent all that time learning to read and write their own native language that could change?

Why do you feel the need to defend kanji?