Is it possible to see...

[Horizon]

I'm glad you found it amusing? xD

And it is also used as a term for an illiterate idiot and whatnot, but...Ehh...Doesn't seem to be on that one.

 

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

hummm thats interesting, isn't it part of that silly L337 thing? i have no understanding of that and the people who are involved in it at my school are total dweebs. giving it a bad name i think.

 

[Horizon]

Yup. That would be a form of illiteracy.

 

[SaKeVi]

...The thing is, those kinds of threads die fast here... they go offtopic, people argue in unconstructive ways, or they simply go ignored. I think that has to do with the fact that the majority of people are visual type people (I mean pictorial, not visual kei ^^ they remember images...

...Also... I feel like there is rarely any worthwhile content in the arguements. I don't feel like I walk away with anything. As if it goes in one ear and out the other...

We really have a bit of an unbalance here as far as between discussion and just plain eye candy threads. No I would say theres a huge imbalance. I think partially cause of the whole visual thing, and that it is much easier to attack people rather than make a reasonable arguement. Since that's the case quickly people will jump in and say "shut up this is silly" and the topic dies... or they go offtopic to avoid conflict. Face it no one like conflict. Well... that's a bit untrue, but most people like to stay safe and far from conflict.

What can you do though... I find even some of my introduction threads get unnoticed. As Kinsao said... it's most likely because there is little info and few pictures and the music is hard to find. I always try to provide music but I get tired of it because no one can appreciate it. They download them and the band never gets mentioned again. Then people get mad when I dont tell them about bands or share more music. But they are bands that are special to me. I don't want to share them if people just download them to simply make there "musical horizons" seem wider. Or download them and never attempt to buy there cds and support them.

Damn, being honest, I never expected to see this kind of post in this forum

As some of you know, I only came to this forum to discuss and criticize VK, hahaha, like most of you said (or tried to say) there are more forums to talk about another genres; this seems to be a Visual forum (eventhough they like "post/Malice Mizer" Visual Style and ignore the good Visual bands from the 80's)

And sorry Mamoro Kun (and users on this forum) but you can't expect a lemon tree to give you apples.

See Ya!

 

[rose_of_eternity]

Quote:
Guys are just stupid, insecure, and they have too much unneeded pride


Thanks.

You're welcome

Quote:
Original quote by pinkkillerkisou

...The thing is, those kinds of threads die fast here... they go offtopic, people argue in unconstructive ways, or they simply go ignored. I think that has to do with the fact that the majority of people are visual type people (I mean pictorial, not visual kei ^^ they remember images...

...Also... I feel like there is rarely any worthwhile content in the arguements. I don't feel like I walk away with anything. As if it goes in one ear and out the other...

We really have a bit of an unbalance here as far as between discussion and just plain eye candy threads. No I would say theres a huge imbalance. I think partially cause of the whole visual thing, and that it is much easier to attack people rather than make a reasonable arguement. Since that's the case quickly people will jump in and say "shut up this is silly" and the topic dies... or they go offtopic to avoid conflict. Face it no one like conflict. Well... that's a bit untrue, but most people like to stay safe and far from conflict.

What can you do though... I find even some of my introduction threads get unnoticed. As Kinsao said... it's most likely because there is little info and few pictures and the music is hard to find. I always try to provide music but I get tired of it because no one can appreciate it. They download them and the band never gets mentioned again. Then people get mad when I dont tell them about bands or share more music. But they are bands that are special to me. I don't want to share them if people just download them to simply make there "musical horizons" seem wider. Or download them and never attempt to buy there cds and support them.


Damn, being honest, I never expected to see this kind of post in this forum

-praises pkk for being reasonable- -pokes siggy- yeah I'm sick of this crap, so I'll be gone for a while, if you really wanna talk, its called msn, bye

 

[Mamoru-kun]

And sorry Mamoro Kun (and users on this forum) but you can't expect a lemon tree to give you apples.

Well, with some DNA arrangments...;-)

 

[duff_o_josh]

Uh-uh...Whatever you say.

Newbie - Wikipedia

None of those, as to my knowledge, fit me whatsoever, nor do the other uses for the term. Except the so-called 'n00b talk' that people use to make fan of illiterates. I do that all the time, however, I'm not doing it here, so it doesn't even come close to applying, let alone insulting either.

Anyway, with that out of the way, got proof of this please and thank you? Going by what I've heard from 'real' goths, 'tis the music, not the looks that make one gothic, so, thusly...

Oh! And, lastly, let's say I have this horse stallion...And his DNA was 'influenced' by many different breeds, one tiny bit having been from the Brabant breed. Would that make him a Brabant then? Going by what you said, apparently it does indeed...

http://www.jrocksaga.com/site/content/glossary.php
if you look up all the different styles of "kei" you can find a link. and the thing with the horse, well its still a horse in then end. sure music plays a big role however looks do to. appearance is the first thing people look at, i mean look at you and others in the jpop section. anyways your friends probably are some of these crazy japanese gothic lolita's who are most of the fan base for these bands you treasure so much. Why do you deny that they are goth? its not a bad thing.

No...Last time I checked, the human body isn't art. And there are different types of beauty too (not to mention art as well). So, thusly, all I could possibly be saying is that they are being ignorant about just one aspect of beauty and 'art' because of a reason that, as to my knowledge, is kind of stupid.

that is why you are not an artist, the human body is one of the most beautiful peices of art known to man.

Ehhh...No. Calling someone or something a 'she-male zombie' or 'almost non-human' or whatever is quite indeed rude. Actually, it's beyond that. It's an unnecessary assault really.

I guess it cant be helped that your a noob to the insult world
:smoke:

 

[Anchyyy]

I don't claim to know anything.

I see this turning into an attack thread rather than discussion.

Yeah i know you dont claim this but Duff_o_josh appearently thinks that.
And i didnt mean to offend you so i am sorry if i did. :sorry:

 

[hebiichigo]

I see this turning into an attack thread rather than discussion.

I agree.. All I see is people attacking each other here. ☝
Can't we each give the other side a bit of a break, please?
Is it possible to agree to disagree, and discuss without insulting each other?

 

[Horizon]

http://www.jrocksaga.com/site/content/glossary.php
if you look up all the different styles of "kei" you can find a link. and the thing with the horse, well its still a horse in then end. sure music plays a big role however looks do to. appearance is the first thing people look at, i mean look at you and others in the jpop section. anyways your friends probably are some of these crazy japanese gothic lolita's who are most of the fan base for these bands you treasure so much. Why do you deny that they are goth? its not a bad thing.

Alright then. I suppose you're kind of correct, but every Visual Kei band I know of is not gothic music, hence why they aren't goths.

Visual kei
Music genre spawned in Japan. Visual bands usually have a strong focus on image and sometimes theatrical performance. Musically, they can play any style, ranging from rock to metal to goth and industrial. The word "kei" refers to the visual aspect of the bands' image. This style had it's height around the mid-90's; today some say that visual kei is dying, especially on the "major league", but on the underground scene it's still thriving.

Visual Kei bands can RANGE from rock to metal to goth as it says. Enough said really. If not, basically, they aren't all gothic!

that is why you are not an artist, the human body is one of the most beautiful peices of art known to man.

The human body is art when it is drawn and all, but, left alone, it is just nature's creation.

Also, last time I checked, I was indeed an artist, but good try! Even though you failed miserably!

I guess it cant be helped that your a noob to the insult world
:smoke:

☝

I'm not even going to bother. I can tell when something is just not worth it really.

I agree.. All I see is people attacking each other here. ☝
Can't we each give the other side a bit of a break, please?
Is it possible to agree to disagree, and discuss without insulting each other?

Oi~...Sorry. I shall say no more in regards. :sorry:

Yeah i know you dont claim this but Duff_o_josh appearently thinks that.
And i didnt mean to offend you so i am sorry if i did. :sorry:

Ditto, ditto! :sorry:

 

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

people are attacking each other because the thread started off with two completely different sides. mamoru-kun started off with a post thats clearly bound to set off a reaction with the vk fans, and then it started.
on the other hand, if he would have not mentioned the shemale zombie part (or whatever he said) then this would have been totally different. he's apologised for that so thats over with, but still, thats why there has been arguing.

and can whoever keeps saying noob take another second in your life to type out newbie. cmon, its just two more letters.

"Why do you deny that they are goth? its not a bad thing." as far as i knew goths wore all black and had a general bad view on most things in this world etc. so i wasn't aware that psyco le cemu believed in the devil, but clearly because they dress as vk they must be goths.

but i agree with hebiichigo, we should discuss from now on and not argue. so if any of that sounded argumentative i apologise.

 

[Horizon]

Ummmm...You got goth wrong. People who wear all black and worship the devil are not really goth. A goth, besides from being an ancient Barbarian, is someone who listens to gothic music. Which, by the way, is definately not Marilyn Manson or KORN or anything of the likes. In fact, apparently, REAL goths don't even wear black 24/7 and aren't all depressed all the time either!

So to be Goth isn't bad.

Nor is having a so-called 'bad' view of most of the world.

Nor is worshipping Satan.

 

[kairi~vs~rinoa]

ohhh thanks for that horizon! (in no way was that comment sarcastic or bitchy. it looks it but it isn't).
i said that because thats how most goths are around where i live etc. but thinking about what you said, maybe thats a stereotype and people have assumed certain points of being a goth. like what you said about korn and marilyn manson.
could i have an example of gothic music? doesn't have to be jrock, i'm just curious.
and i didn't say they were bad things. sorry if it came across like that.

 

[Horizon]

Ummmmm...-isn't a goth-

I suppose I could look some up, but I'm not sure that would be entirely true. Hmmm...

Oh! And your welcome and I didn't actually take any of that as such.

 

[Kinsao]

There is a lot to read in this thread. And I wasn't even away for long!
There are interesting things said, but... too much to remember for me to comment on...
But I want to say on:

What can you do though... I find even some of my introduction threads get unnoticed. As Kinsao said... it's most likely because there is little info and few pictures and the music is hard to find. I always try to provide music but I get tired of it because no one can appreciate it. They download them and the band never gets mentioned again. Then people get mad when I dont tell them about bands or share more music. But they are bands that are special to me. I don't want to share them if people just download them to simply make there "musical horizons" seem wider. Or download them and never attempt to buy there cds and support them.

PK, I don't think your introduction threads go unnoticed! On the contrary, from what I can gather, most people on the forum much appreciate that you post information about less well-known bands, and share the music with us. It is true that some of the threads sink, after a short while. But I wouldn't say that people don't appreciate or like the music of those bands. For instance, I very much liked Aushvitz, KuRt and Mar'derayla that you posted here. But it's true what you say that the music is hard to find. Each time I go to search for music, I include these bands (and Galneryus!) in my search. But I have not been lucky in finding more music from them yet. I only found some more KuRt music, which I did post here. But it doesn't mean people forget the bands or are not interested anymore.

About VK/goth, I can't say very well. But I don't consider as the same thing. I would hesitate to try and define the terms, because I don't have the knowledge. But to me, "goth" is more about whole lifestyle as well as certain type of music. And surely, people don't have to dress in black to be a goth! or worship the devil! Of course, there are different "types" of goth, maybe some people who listen to the music only, maybe others like to dress a certain way or whatever... it's just a matter of preferred style.

To me, VK refers to a look which is extreme visual emphasis, i.e. not the "ordinary" clothes like they might wear at the supermarket! More elaborate clothing and makeup. I think that sometimes it could be "goth", and other times not. For example, Pyscho le Cemu were very strongly VK; just look at their crazy costumes! But, they are so ungoth to me, they are almost anti-goth! I don't know how to explain myself well, though. :sorry:

And, yeah, I think this thread has somewhat turned into more "attack" thread. I said it before, but I think people were quick to jump on Mamoru-kun's back because of his original post, and he did apologise for using words which could be offensive. I don't think any j-rockers' hearts will be broken because Mamoru-kun doesn't like their makeup. And further in the thread, too... there is no need for things to get personal between individuals. I like to have discussion and I also liked the thread "is it all about the visual?", I thought it was an interesting thread for discussion.

The human body... *was determined to leave that subject alone but can't resist going on* ... I think it is sometimes art and sometimes not. (Incidentally, Duff O'Josh, you were asking for trouble making assumption to say "that is why you are not an artist" - if you say something like that without knowing for real, you can more or less guarantee that the other person will be! As is Horizon.) Anyway *ahem* I think in it's ordinary state just existing, the human body is not art, but of course if it's a subject for drawing, painting, sculpture etc. it becomes "art" in some sense. For instance, it's possible to view the human body as if it was art. Which depends on the mind of the viewer. As well as being the subject of art, the human body can also be the medium of art. I'm actually thinking specifically of performance art - especially dance, which to me is a form of sculpture with duration (but also theatre and other sorts of performance art). So if someone is engaged in performance art, I think you can say that their body "is" the art. (Maybe not the whole of it; for example, there may also be costumes, scenery, props and lighting contributing to the artwork, but certainly a key component in it.)

I'll shut up now....

 

[furan]

............you got one point there.

of caUSE I HAVE A POINT...

VK is NO different to any other expression through fasshion.

it's no different to Punk, Goth and Metal... it's no different to the Hip Hop look, or... 'streat' i guess people call it..

or the Skater appearence... it's just another way of dressing...

you take away EVERY SINGLE band's appearence out there and gress them all in plain trouseres and simple tops.... now tell me... would you still be as interested in the band you are now?

 

[Mamoru-kun]

Indeed no, you're right. I remember seeing Kurt playing his guitar and songs sitting on a chair, in front of listening persons also sitting, and well, even if it was still Nirvana, it was not really him. So here, the clothes aside, even the position (just sitting without moving in his chair) changed the mood. I can now easily understand that a VK group without his scene clothes would be some how different enough to break the sphere. But still, it's hard for me to look at them without linking them with gothics. But that is certainly (as said above) a stereotip I have because I don't now the VK world enough.

 

[duff_o_josh]

The human body is art when it is drawn and all, but, left alone, it is just nature's creation.

Also, last time I checked, I was indeed an artist, but good try! Even though you failed miserably!

its unfortunate that you think so. I do believe photgraphy is considered art an d people are often captured on film for arts sake. you dont have to paint or draw on some thing for it to be are, art is natural.

 

[hebiichigo]

its unfortunate that you think so. I do believe photgraphy is considered art an d people are often captured on film for arts sake. you dont have to paint or draw on some thing for it to be are, art is natural.

I'm sorry for being so pedantic here, but Art, by definition, is something that human beings create. It is "Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature". Photography and film are of course included in this. I would say, when the human body is being studied as art or produced into an art work, then it is art. So yes people captured on film may be art.
Nature itself is not art. My body just as it is right now is not art

 

[Horizon]

its unfortunate that you think so. I do believe photgraphy is considered art an d people are often captured on film for arts sake. you dont have to paint or draw on some thing for it to be are, art is natural.

Did you not see the "and all" thing? The body is art when it is actually used in art itself. When by itself, again, it is just natural. And, technically, even when drawn, painted, photographed, et cetera it's still not art. It's just an element in art, used it art.

Although I do so believe Hebiichigo said it best, although I've seen other animals, besides from humans, create art, but everything else...

And art isn't natural either. Nature is natural and what nature creates is natural. Nature just creates something. Nature, as far as I know, does not have a mind of it's own. It does not think to itself what would look beautiful or great where and what colours and landscapes would go perfect together. Nature just creates and some of what it creates then, in turn, creates actual art. They think about where to put what, what colours would make it amazing, and so on and so forth. Again, nature does not perform this function; it just creates the materials so to speak.

 

[duff_o_josh]

Did you not see the "and all" thing? The body is art when it is actually used in art itself. When by itself, again, it is just natural. And, technically, even when drawn, painted, photographed, et cetera it's still not art. It's just an element in art, used it art.

Although I do so believe Hebiichigo said it best, although I've seen other animals, besides from humans, create art, but everything else...

And art isn't natural either. Nature is natural and what nature creates is natural. Nature just creates something. Nature, as far as I know, does not have a mind of it's own. It does not think to itself what would look beautiful or great where and what colours and landscapes would go perfect together. Nature just creates and some of what it creates then, in turn, creates actual art. They think about where to put what, what colours would make it amazing, and so on and so forth. Again, nature does not perform this function; it just creates the materials so to speak.

ok then i will leave it at that for you.
☝

 

[duff_o_josh]

I'm sorry for being so pedantic here, but Art, by definition, is something that human beings create. It is "Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature". Photography and film are of course included in this. I would say, when the human body is being studied as art or produced into an art work, then it is art. So yes people captured on film may be art.
Nature itself is not art. My body just as it is right now is not art

by the way human beings create other human beings.

 

[Horizon]

But can we decide on how the human shall look? The colour of its eyes? Hair? The height? Et cetera?

That is still nature.

 

[hebiichigo]

by the way human beings create other human beings.

wow.
Art is created from ideas generated by human beings.
My body wasn't an idea that my parents thought of was it? They didn't think "she will be this high, and weigh this much, have this coloured hair..." and make me this way specifically did they? No.

But there really is no point in disagreeing or discussing anything with you, is there? :banghead:

 

[pinkkillerkisou]

Why are people trying to define art... art is something each person as to define for themselves. This is a ridiculous arguement. Quite pointless too... you will never have a nailed-down defintition everyone can agree on. Art is an expression... and being individuals people express themselves differently. People see the world differently... leave it at that. Art cant be generalized.