Is it possible to see...

[Mamoru-kun]

(remark from my post in the "Vidoll" topic)

...but I'm sure that their songs would have still be as good without their clothings (don't mean nude, of course!) ;-)

 

[Anchyyy]

(remark from my post in the "Vidoll" topic)

...but I'm sure that their songs would have still be as good without their clothings (don't mean nude, of course!) ;-)

Yeah right but then they wouldnt be visuals Well they look perfectly fine to me. And their music is good too!

 

[furan]

that's like saying.... Iron Maiden would be exactly the same wihouth their leather pants and chains....

... if Iron Maiden looked like westilfe.... you can just imagin the difference in their popularity...

the fact is, they WANT to dress like ths... why should our biggotted opinions of it stop them?

 

[Mamoru-kun]

that's like saying.... Iron Maiden would be exactly the same wihouth their leather pants and chains....

............you got one point there.

 

[hebiichigo]

Vidoll's music is very good. Well in my opinion

And, yeah, without that look they couldn't be considered "visual kei", wouldn't have the same kind of fans, popularity etc. They want to dress like that, and they can stop if they want to Also, when they (ie Visual Kei bands) are in private time they tend to not dress in the same 'extreme' way they do in photoshoot pictures. Because those clothes are really like costumes, and it's all for show and entertainment

 

[Horizon]

mamoru-kun is absolutely right, you have turn this section into a place of not jpop but japanese gothic culture. there is a big difference between the two. not only have you done that but you mock him personally when all he did was post a comment about these "pop" stars that are absolutely ridiculous. make up hair and costumes are a big thing but these guys dont know how to rock. not one bit. when i try to read one of your threads all it is a spam section dedicated to how cute one of the guys are, when do you talk about the technicallity of the guitar riff in that one song, or the meaning of lyrics in another? do you do things like this?

Again, they are NOT gothic. They are visual kei, but nice try anyway!

And I do not see a "JRock" forum anywhere, so where the Hell are we supposed to talk about it?

Also, why should we really? Firstly, I can't even tell the difference between guitars and base guitars, so I really couldn't do that and, as for lyrics, normally I don't even look them up. I do not need to know what they're saying to enjoy the music. Sometimes I might look 'em up and all, however, I don't usually, so I couldn't do that either. What's left then, besides from pictures? This:

"Ohmigawd! I love -insert random J-band here- so, so much!"

"I know! Me too!"

"Me three!"

"Me fourth!"

"Me fifth!"

"Oh, oh! I do too! <3"

"Ditto, ditto! Who's your favorite? Mine's -insert bandmember's name from random J-band-"

Et cetera, et cetera.

Not to mention the general atmosphere-type thing here that I'm receiving is that we all mostly find that it's a given that we like the band for the music and, well, as you may just be able to tell with the dialogue above, saying how much you love them kind of gets old fast.

And, again, if one doesn't like the pictures, don't go into the THREADS!!

Last two things: first of all, who the Hell are you to know what real "rocking" is? Are you what now? The almighty Deity of Rock n' Roll or some equally as bull-crapped-up thing? And secondly: when did we mock the thread-maker? Not to mention, even if we did, he did insult them for no reason whatsoever, so he'd only be getting kind of what he deserves then.

 

[RockLee]

Mamoru-kun, recently you posted nothing but threads filled with criticism.Must be because you're a Wallonian Yet I agree that that JRef is becoming more and more a playground for J-music and especially VK.
In the past I've posted a thread similar to this, but to no avail.

On the other hand, if you don't like it, you shouldn't go to those threads.That's the only advice I could tell you.You should respect other people's opinions too and if they like watching androgenic guys, it's their problem ;-)

 

[Horizon]

This point seems well made at first, but let's delve further. I see a pattern. Most, if not all, of the bands discussed here involve having archetypical makeup and costumes. In order to not care about the visuals and accessories, there must be an equally random distribution of both these bands and bands that don't exhibit these visual traits, because music and visuals do not necessarily correlate (see below). But the heavy skew of the threads are towards visual bands. So, underneath it all, who really cares about visuals, or at least Visual Kei? I know I for one do not- I listen to both VK and non-VK bands.

Then, again, make your own damn thread! Ohgmigawd! 'Tis not THAT difficult a thing to do. The reason I don't do these things is because I don't KNOW any of these bands. Enlighten me about them then instead of bitching and complaining about how the forum is completely and utterly filled up with visual kei. DO something about it! Just likes lots and lots of people say: if you want something done, do it yourself. Good advice that, so I advise you listen to it for once!

I've already addressed this point. See above post.

Very crappily at that!

The point here made is unfortunately counter-productive, particularly for feminists. For starters, it tries to defend by using a stereotype which hurts both sides (women understand beauty and art, men don't). Secondly, it simplifies the reasoning behind why some people (which you generalized to be ﾂ"menﾂ" from Mamoru-kun) don't like what they see: because they are afraid of being seen as gay. But to only see that reason is to deny the existence of others. Perhaps some see the images as gimmicky. Or too eccentric. Or the makeup too overdone (much as women who use too much makeup end up worse off). Perhaps we see it as an overused device used over and over again. The tastes may not fit the viewer (more likely.) The ﾂ"artﾂ" is contrived and too artificial. Whatever the reason, it cannot be simplified to what you suggest.

I was generalizing a bit, yes, however:

I have to say that, just before posting it, I was wandering in this JPop part of the forum, and found a girl that I thought very attractive. Well...perhaps 30 seconds before writing my post, I was shocked as I understood that "she" was a boy's band singer...

And what? The person becomes hideously ugly 'cause he ain't a chick? Uh-uh...The thing I said about that seems quite good in this situation.

Not to mention I never once did mention that men can't understand beauty and art, but, again, good try anyway!

GQ, by the way, features very handsome men on the covers. Many men subscribe to the magazine.

And I doubt it's for the men. Now, if lots of straight men start subscribing to Playgirl (for themselves mind you), I'll totally be swayed. Really.

Again, you simplify, as well as ignore the point of what I wrote. Part of the issue is not THAT there are pictures, but that the pictures are placed in the forefront of everything. It's the first thing you see, the largest thing you see, and the last thing I care about. It's true to a degree that bands benefit from pictures to round out for the public who they are. But to put up so many 600x800 size pictures of bands in uninteresting makeup is overdoing things, unwarranted, and fails to bring in more people unused to this but may potentially like it.

But the posters like these kind of things and we do not believe the make-up to be "uninteresting". Again, I say it: make your own damn thread and then you have a good reason to start bitching and complaing IF it flops. Possibly.

Also, I've found that the band's images often do not reflect their music. Elegantly costumed artists can be either good heavy rockers or, er, bad heavy rockers. So why should I trust their image to lead me to their music? There is little to no correlation between looks and music, and one should not be tempted to superficially think so.

You shouldn't. Personally, again, I just like the purdy piccies, especially since they have a tendency to help me find out who is who.

Another point I was trying to make was more about the genre. I know VK bands do not stay completely rock, and sometimes experiment a bit. But by and large they are rock. I know (or hope) that J-Music is more diverse than just rock-oriented and pop-oriented bands. For my part, I'd like to hear more outside of that boundary. Otherwise, what I hear starts to get stale, as do the discussions.

Then AGAIN! MAKE ONE! If you want more people to discuss something you are interested in, start it up!

The pictures are not necessary.

Ummmm...Pictures ARE necessary. I like to know what the band LOOKS like and, especially, be able to tell who is who once again. Not to mention, the pictures are quite pleasing to the eye. It's not a the most important thing of course, but I still like to know and see.

 

[Horizon]

No no, quite the oposite. I'm not against boys at all. I would even say that if I would have been gay, I would have probably boy hunt some people (Ricky Martin for exemple ;-)). What makes me sick is when I see boys, who could indeed be pretty, showing like girls in JPop shows. That's what -I- don't understand...

Something else I'd like to be explained: someone told me that such groups (and/or gothic groups) are dressing the way they do to become special, to get out of the sheeps herd (sorry, it's perhaps only a french expression). But well, now there is soo much groups like that the the entire sheeps herd became gothic (or whatever you call it...VK, is it right?). Then there, where is the difference between them?

They can be quite pretty without being a guy once again...One does not need female organs to be pretty whatsoever. That what I do not understand. Why do the genders have to play such different roles? If a guy wants and does look pretty, he is indeed pretty. Nothing to it. Simple as that.

And of course you'd be boy-hunting if you were gay. That's a given really.

I've never heard that, so I can't explain it.

And, really now, do I need to go find a link to some REAL gothic bands and artists? And get some page that explains what gothic music is? Jeez...

 

[Horizon]

Well...with all due respect, if that Miyavi is the one showing in the images of your signature...yes, you're right, I don't think that zombies do insane things as he does. But frankly, I hope that my two childs won't grow up in a world filled with too much people like that...

PS: once again, I don't say anything about his mucis (which I've probably never heard BTW). I'm just reacting about his behaviour and his please-look-at-me way of dressing...

Again, you resort to what sounds to be insults. Why must you keep doing this, hmm? Especially if you truly did apologize for doing it before? Tsk, tsk...

And ohmigawd! Here's a CRAZY thought: maybe that's his personality? You know, who he is as a person? Or, maybe, just maybe, that's how he likes to dress?!? Ohmigawd! How odd and weird and unconventional THAT one is!

 

[Dollporn]

Yet I agree that that JRef is becoming more and more a playground for J-music and especially VK.

Did you notice you're in the j-pop forum?
If what you mean is that the genres are too varied to you I can inform you that j-rock goes under j-pop, like officially. However I don't think it works the other way, but anyway... ☝
And apparently, if discussing j-rock bacame illegal in here there wouldn't be any people...

 

[Mamoru-kun]

Also, why should we really? Firstly, I can't even tell the difference between guitars and base guitars, so I really couldn't do that and, as for lyrics, normally I don't even look them up. I do not need to know what they're saying to enjoy the music.

My wife even says that it's best not to know sometimes ;-)

Mamoru-kun, recently you posted nothing but threads filled with criticism.Must be because you're a Wallonian

Congratulation! First personnal attack of the topic ;-)

 

[Horizon]

My wife even says that it's best not to know sometimes ;-)

Ahem...Dir en grey, anyone?

 

[hebiichigo]

LOL hey I like Dir en grey's lyrics. I like knowing what Kyo's raving on about.. I find it very interesting

 

[Horizon]

LOL hey I like Dir en grey's lyrics. I like knowing what Kyo's raving on about.. I find it very interesting

Ditto, ditto! I find his lyrics quite beautifully written, even if they're about, say, abortion from the unborn child's point of view? I just love his lyrics to death (what I have read translations of anyway), however, a lot of people would probably be sickened by them. They just...Don't see the beauty I suppose. Poor people.

 

[Mamoru-kun]

Again, you resort to what sounds to be insults. Why must you keep doing this, hmm? Especially if you truly did apologize for doing it before? Tsk, tsk...

Excuse-me, but what was an insult in what I wrote there? I was just explaining what I was seeing (especially the finger), and what I hope my childs won't see often. Or is it me who don't understand the english notion of "insult"?

And for your information, I am sorry about what I wrote, not about what I thought...

 

[Kinsao]

Wow - I missed so much good discussion
This topic is very interesting to me, even though many people already have said things that I am thinking, so maybe I can't add much.

I posted some long posts in a recent thread called "is it all about the visual?" which addressed how I feel on this thing of VK/non-VK-ness.

Personally, I listen just for the music only and I do not care what the bands look like. Equally, I can't understand why Mamoru-kun finds the looks of the bands offputting. There are many bands I like which I don't find good-looking, but I don't care about it. For example, Iron Maiden is not really good-looking band But, it doesn't make any difference.

But people were very quick to slam Mamoru-kun. I can see insulting terms in his first post, but actually I was thinking also it's nice that someone starts a conflicting discussion. And, I am not insulted by his post, in fact. I am not a VK musician myself of course, so such comments are not directed at me personally. At worst, I maybe just sigh to myself and think "he is missing out on so much from being narrow-minded like that... but it is his own problem..."

I have observed in other places on jref forum that some other members who are not into jrock get sometimes irritated by the VK focus and what they call "superficiality" eek: ) of this sub-section of the forum. And I have always tried in a mature way to defend the jpop forum. ☝

It is true there is a focus on visual bands. Partly it is availability of information, though. For instance, I really like Aushvitz a lot - the songs from them that PK posted are some of my favourite songs, and I would really like to hear Galneryus - I keep searching for them. But their thread goes further down, not because they are not liked, but because there is not much info to post.

As for pictures, the internet is very good place for visual media. So it is natural to post pictures. It... uhhh... looks pretty.
Well, maybe you noticed that in fact a lot of people who post here are also visual artists in some way - maybe art students or ex-art-students or just enjoy to paint for a hobby. Not everyone, of course, but... There are many of us who make our own pictures. So we enjoy to look at visuals from an artistic point of view. I don't mean to sound pretentious, but it is the truth.

Also, if you really look through the threads, there are many, many songs posted and offers to share. These are not bright and obvious like pictures, but they are still there. People here are just as keen to share the 'audio' as the 'visual'!

I agree it would be nice to have more 'technical' sorts of discussions about the music perhaps. There are some of us here who are musicians in fact - I know Furan and Dollporn are singers, PK plays bass, Anchyyy and Rose play keyboards, myself I play guitar and keyboard and also sing somewhat... probably there are more musicians too... so we are not all musically 'stupid' or some such. So, I really don't know why there is not more 'technical' music discussion, in fact! :? Maybe it is because this forum can be a place for us to be a little ridiculous at times, to make up stupid funny stories, to relax, to have fun. Really, I take for granted that the people posting here like the music (first and foremost). In fact, I find the posts mainly not "superficial" but simply chatty.

I honestly find it difficult sometimes to remember if bands I like are classed as VK or non-VK. It makes no difference to me.

In truth, if someone like a band just from their appearences visually, and say they are a fan of such band even if they don't like the music, they must be very stupid or a little crazy. I think there is no-one who really is like that! ☝

Finally, I think it is a real shame that people get 'put off' from jpop forum because they think we post only pictures and talk of prettiness. Because it is not true. And people turn their back for that reason, and they miss out on great music.

 

[duff_o_josh]

Wow. I put in an agressive argument and NO ONE'S hated me so far. Heehee. This just made my day!

your post was hardly agressive and you only stated that your a complete fool.see below

i am a complete fool.

 

[duff_o_josh]

Again, they are NOT gothic. They are visual kei, but nice try anyway!

And I do not see a "JRock" forum anywhere, so where the Hell are we supposed to talk about it?

Also, why should we really? Firstly, I can't even tell the difference between guitars and base guitars, so I really couldn't do that and, as for lyrics, normally I don't even look them up. I do not need to know what they're saying to enjoy the music. Sometimes I might look 'em up and all, however, I don't usually, so I couldn't do that either. What's left then, besides from pictures? This:

"Ohmigawd! I love -insert random J-band here- so, so much!"

"I know! Me too!"

"Me three!"

"Me fourth!"

"Me fifth!"

"Oh, oh! I do too! <3"

"Ditto, ditto! Who's your favorite? Mine's -insert bandmember's name from random J-band-"

Et cetera, et cetera.

Not to mention the general atmosphere-type thing here that I'm receiving is that we all mostly find that it's a given that we like the band for the music and, well, as you may just be able to tell with the dialogue above, saying how much you love them kind of gets old fast.

And, again, if one doesn't get the pictures, don't go into the THREADS!!

Last two things: first of all, who the Hell are you to know what real "rocking" is? Are you what now? The almighty Deity of Rock n' Roll or some equally as bull-crapped-up thing? And secondly: when did we mock the thread-maker? Not to mention, even if we did, he did insult them for no reason whatsoever, so he'd only be getting kind of what he deserves then.

ah i realize i cant argue with you guys, sorry. a shame, what a shame
visual kei came from angura kei which was influenced heavily by traditional japan. visual kei encorporates gothic attributes into itself along with metal and industrial. most people in japan who like this music dress as a gothic lolita. so i am not far off saying that it was gothic. look at shibuya kei noob :smoke:

 

[Mycernius]

Just a quick word. If you are interested in older J-pop bands have a word or look at some of Flash Jeffs posts. He is into a 1970s female duo called Pink Lady. I think his profile has a link to his website.

 

[pinkkillerkisou]

PK plays bass

...and folk harp.
(No I'm not kidding )

I thought I should also mention... I get really sick of people just taking it as an visual thing. Or assuming that everyone, mostly that I, take it as just a visual thing. I don't care what they look like... I love the music. I would love jrocj if I was blind... I would love it if every musician in the whole business was ugly... the image isn't what matter to me. Like I said before though... looks are icing on the cake... and there is no shame in liking icing... I love icing. I love sitting and picking songs apart... and really heairing them... each instrument... and the lyrics and vocals... then you can appreciate the whole thing when you put it all back together... I know not many people do that... but I do... I guess it's a muscian thing.

Now I see... this was meant to be a discussion/rant thread not a please show me bands that dont look like she-male zombies thread. I'm a little slow.

 

[lastmagi]

lastemagi. Damn it, what part of 'you don't have to look' don't you understand? If you don't want to look at the bands, then keep away from the posts, and since it's mostly spam in here anyway(which I admit it is), why come here at all?
And make up your mind, you say you think the pictures unteresting, then why are you so mad about them. If you don't care, you don't mind, right?

I care about the state the threads and discussions in JPop are degenerating into. (Thanks for admitting that it's mostly spam. Made my point here much easier, and puts my next responses in context.)

Then, again, make your own damn thread! Ohgmigawd! 'Tis not THAT difficult a thing to do. The reason I don't do these things is because I don't KNOW any of these bands. Enlighten me about them then instead of bitching and complaining about how the forum is completely and utterly filled up with visual kei. DO something about it! Just likes lots and lots of people say: if you want something done, do it yourself. Good advice that, so I advise you listen to it for once!

As I've said before, posts like that get pushed back and ignored. Once more you ignore my point, and oversimplify. It's not THAT there are no threads that I want to see, it's that the general atmosphere of the forum makes it not conducive to other kinds of discussions.

Very crappily at that!

Here you refused to respond to my point in a reasonable manner. You don't provide your arguments in a level-headed way, and you just attack. It's this kind of superficial commentary that makes many Jmusic threads degenerative. Kindly read my posts and respond to the points in an adult manner.

And what? The person becomes hideously ugly 'cause he ain't a chick? Uh-uh...The thing I said about that seems quite good in this situation.

But the fact is that you generalized. One person could have said it, two could have said it, ten people could have said it in the forum, but that won't be representative of the whole population.

Not to mention I never once did mention that men can't understand beauty and art, but, again, good try anyway!

Er. I would like to warn you that I am quite capable of reading what is implicit in statements. Even so, the quote that I specifically referenced for you to review, and which I will show here again was:

We females who are completely and utterly straight can and will gladly state rather another girl is pretty, beautiful, gorgeous, et cetera. What I can't understand to a certain degree is why men can't do the same? Are you all just that 'homophobic' or something?

So yes, I suppose it was a good try. Moving along.

And I doubt it's for the men. Now, if lots of straight men start subscribing to Playgirl (for themselves mind you), I'll totally be swayed. Really.

Sorry, I chuckled at this part. This obviously points out that you don't know that GQ stands for Gentlemen's Quarterly. If we go look it up on wiki:

Gentlemen's Quarterly, most often known simply as GQ, is a monthly men's magazine that focuses on men's fashion and style

...

In 1983 editor Art Cooper changed the course of the magazine, introducing articles beyond fashion, targeting heterosexual men and establishing GQ as a general men's magazine in competition with Esquire.

Thus you made a false assumption which ultimately undermined what you said.

But the posters like these kind of things and we do not believe the make-up to be "uninteresting". Again, I say it: make your own damn thread and then you have a good reason to start bitching and complaing IF it flops. Possibly.

Sure, who am I to say that these people don't like the makeup? But is it overdone sometimes? Yes. Does it get boring after a while? Yes. Will we grow out of it someday? Yes. Do I really care as much about the makeup themselves as much as the overzealous emphasis artists and fans (mind you, not all) put on it? Not really.

Ummmm...Pictures ARE necessary. I like to know what the band LOOKS like and, especially, be able to tell who is who once again. Not to mention, the pictures are quite pleasing to the eye. It's not a the most important thing of course, but I still like to know and see.

I refer you to the sentence immediately after the one you quoted.

They're overdone (if you'd read what I wrote, you'd see that was what I was saying)

So basically you removed something I said from context.

Oh well.

As an endnote, I'd like to thank Kinsao. Even though I don't agree with everything he wrote (I'll get to them later, if I have time), I appreciate his level-headed arguments. I know it might be difficult for some to refrain from vitriolic, empassioned ﾂ"defensesﾂ" from the other side but it's a start. Disagreements exist. How people handle them may either hinder or help a community. Considering that the JPop/Rock community is so young, that we handle things in a more adult manner might be beneficial for this growing sub-culture.

 

[lastmagi]

I love sitting and picking songs apart... and really heairing them... each instrument... and the lyrics and vocals... then you can appreciate the whole thing when you put it all back together... I know not many people do that... but I do... I guess it's a muscian thing.

See, that kind of thing I can appreciate.

 

[Mamoru-kun]

Now I see... this was meant to be a discussion/rant thread not a please show me bands that dont look like she-male zombies thread. I'm a little slow.

May I remind that basicaly, beside the fact that I used some quite rude words (for which I already said sorry), I was asking info about some specific groups (for which I already got some informations)?

More globally, I was also asking why more (ancien) traditionnal groups were not shown in this forum, but for that question too I got an answer (even in such a discution, right filtering gives you good answers ;-))

 

[duff_o_josh]

May I remind that basicaly, beside the fact that I used some quite rude words (for which I already said sorry), I was asking info about some specific groups (for which I already got some informations)?

More globally, I was also asking why more (ancien) traditionnal groups were not shown in this forum, but for that question too I got an answer (even in such a discution, right filtering gives you good answers ;-))

the words you used were not very rude, they just dont like to read things that make them think twice about what they like. dont worry mamoru-kun.