Is it ok to be an atheist/agnositc?

[KirinMan]

I would suggest that many Japanese people are very religious, just in their own way.

I also would not use the western example of what defines someone as being religious, atheist, or agnostic.

There are plenty of people here that do not talk about their beliefs openly because it is personal, yet their actions suggest that they are believers in God. How many families have their own family altars? How common is it for them to visit their family grave sites? How many commonly give offerings to their God's during the course of a year, for any number of reasons? These are all examples of "religion" or practicing religion as well.

I personally feel that the western definitions of atheism and agnostism dont quite fit here.

I think that the idea of what is religious or religion is foreign to many, yet almost everyone I know here believes in a "kami" of one kind or another, but dont claim to be religious either.

I also know of some people that say they dont believe in God, yet they regularly practice the family traditions of placing offerings to their ancestors on the family graves.

So what does that make them...atheist or agnostic or neither?

 

[ShadowSpirit]

KirinMan makes a valid point. Yet I think you're inadvertently mixing two concepts together...

1) Theism is the belief in gods or deities. Whereas atheism is the lack of such beliefs in theism. As an American, I am certainly not going to be so presumptuous as to the intentions of what a Japanese born and raised individual believes when they give offerings to the dead. However, I will say that an offering to the dead is precisely that. To the passing of a person, not a god. Whether that individual believes in heaven, in ghosts, doing it out of respect, or just doing it for themselves to remember the times they had with that person; I am not going to guess on any of those intentions. That is between that person and those whom they serve to honor. It still stands that such an offering doesn't make a person believe in god and thus it doesn't automatically make them a theist. Religious, maybe. Yet much the same way that even Jedi is a religion. Except Jedi don't believe in gods but follow a structured belief system regardless. I figure using a movie-designed religion like Jedi is a more polite example than trying to use a widely practiced non-cinematic religion.

So for my next point. In regards to KirinMan's question. "So what does that make them...atheist or agnostic or neither?" I say....

2) Perhaps it simply makes them spiritual. Maybe they don't believe in a god, but believe in the power to connect to those whom they've lost. Again, I'm trying to carefully not make any presumptions here. I don't know what the aim of these shrines or offerings serve. I'm just certain that it is possible to separate the concept of gods apart from the concept of spirits.

 

[Malamis]

2) Perhaps it simply makes them spiritual. Maybe they don't believe in a god, but believe in the power to connect to those whom they've lost. Again, I'm trying to carefully not make any presumptions here. I don't know what the aim of these shrines or offerings serve. I'm just certain that it is possible to separate the concept of gods apart from the concept of spirits.

As far as my limited knowledge (gleaned largely from James Clavell's Shogun and other works of speculative demonstration) extends, the more exotic elements of traditional shinto accounted for the ascendancy of the spirit from a dead body to a background Kami, who could then potentially raise merry hell if they were irate enough.
This was extended to cover the understanding that a kami would get attached to, either literally or personally to their mortal remains, by extension their graves and by further extension the memory of their existence. From those assumptions, tending grave and blank lipservice makes all sorts of sense, seeing as a great many folk do that to their living grandparents *ahem*.

As for the topic, I heard from my venerated lecturer of japan = awesome that, constitutionally/traditionally, as the Emperor is Shinto, every else is Shinto, whether they realise it or not. Since the only people likely to take serious offense at this are my fellow minority of divers fundamentalists, no one really cares. Admittedly, said lecturer is a (converted) Catholic and may have a somewhat skewed vision of the situation.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Malamis: That is intriguing stuff you brought up about the background kami. I'm not fluent in the beliefs for Shinto but I'm going to make an appoint to study more on it. Yet the information you divulged reminds me of a couple of things (I'm going to try to not make a habit of doing lists in multiples of 2.)

1) The "background kami" sounds similar to the Egyptian's belief in Ra and Ka. Whereas one represents the shell that is our mortal body and another represents the spirit that passes into ascension. They too believed that the spirit could re-attach itself to its shell and wreak terror. This played a role in why bodies were attempted to be preserved and pots of water left behind if that rising body derived a thirst. Hence the trend of horror stories about mummies rising from the grave.

2) As a similar result. I now have a better understanding of why so many Japanese horror flicks concentrate on the concept of vengeful spirits.

 

[Malamis]

Another element i've been made aware of ( indirectly from jigoku shoujo and ayakashi/mononoke(both excellent starting points from the creepy department)) is that any made thing (sword, wheel, boat, coffin , what have you) that was left undisturbed for long enough was assumed to achieve sentience, and supernatural ( tele-*tic?) abilities.

Same goes for living things that just survived long enough ( trees, mountains, cats especially). This was simply assumed to be the case and people went on with their lives, albeit with more anti possession charms, compulsion gewgaws, coercion doodads and so forth. It certainly made for excellent theater.

How this applies to the present Japanese cultural situation? I understand that those self same doodads have lost their original meanings, and people do them out of habit or indirect desire for good fortune, rather than out of veneration, except possibly where ancestors are concerned.

As an analogy, the tossing of a coin into a well/brook/fountain was (apparently) believed to be a money offering to the water spirit(undine?) therein as part greek culture/mythos, for the sake of supernatural intervention. Now it's just something people do.

I think the whole Daruma eye painting business would be a good Japanese parallel to the wishing well racket.

 

[pipokun]

I like going off-topic in other threads esp., political/modern history threads, but this thread is about atheism in Japan. So I only put some links here.

Another element i've been made aware of ( indirectly from jigoku shoujo and ayakashi/mononoke(both excellent starting points from the creepy department)) is that any made thing (sword, wheel, boat, coffin , what have you) that was left undisturbed for long enough was assumed to achieve sentience, and supernatural ( tele-*tic?) abilities.
...

It is Tsukumogami
Tsukumogami - Wikipedia

Just refer to the story 5 below. I think it is interesting for you. The English translation is available there (5 green balls for Kyoto University)

Discarded commodities will get back on human being.
トップページ | 京都大学貴重資料デジタルアーカイブ

Mottainai
Mottainai - Wikipedia

Some may say "look at the present mass-producing/wasting lifestyle in Japan!!!". You are right, and it is good of you to start your own thread in other appropriate section here.

 

[Pachipro]

I personally feel that the western definitions of atheism and agnostism dont quite fit here.

I think that the idea of what is religious or religion is foreign to many, yet almost everyone I know here believes in a "kami" of one kind or another, but dont claim to be religious either.

I also know of some people that say they dont believe in God, yet they regularly practice the family traditions of placing offerings to their ancestors on the family graves.

I posted this in another thread, but I subscribe to Bertrand Russell's definition of an agnostic:

An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.

Because one in Japan believes in a kami, it does not mean that they believe in a god per se as kami can also be interpreted to mean "spirit". Therefore, they would be considered spiritual and not religious as being religious would mean a belief in a God.

The American Indians also have the same beliefs as the Japanese in that they do not believe in a God, but believe in spirits such as animals and nature. This in no way means they are religious or that they believe in a God.

Some would call it "superstitious", but I prefer to believe that the American Indian, Japanese, and other "spiritual" people are probably more correct than the religions that are forced down our throats on a daily basis.

So what does that make them...atheist or agnostic or neither?

I believe it makes them "spiritual" for the reasons stated above. Maybe the Pagans were onto something in worshiping nature, the animals, and the earth as a living, breathing entity for, if there was no truth to it, why did the Christian religion make all of their Holy Days to coincide with Pagen beliefs and try to surpress it with much success? Was it because Paganism and trhe worship of nature was the true path and the Christians could not control the people if they believed this way? I think there is some truth to it.

Therefore, I believe it is perfectly natural to be an atheist and/or an agnostioc since present day religion and the belief in a God is a fairytale and a man made invention anyway in my opinion.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Pachipro:

I share a lot of your perspective on religion and you relatively brought up the same point I did earlier but with more insight and examples. I did want to inform that belief in kami, whether it be defined as a god or as a spirit, is still considered part of the religious category by definition. I understand that you're trying to differentiate the two. Yet one can be religious and an atheist. Here is dictionary.com's definition of religion (feel free to find an English dictionary that contradicts this definition significantly if you'd like.)

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Shinto is a religion. Its practices are taught and shared in pertinence to the rituals that are conducted and the spirits they are conducted for. Again, I stress that Pachipro and I are in agreement on the opinion of the kami representing a spirit rather than a god in this context. Also we agree that the shrine practices in discussion do not in themselves make the participants theists. I just wanted to highlight that it does in fact make them religious. Spirituality just means that a person has belief in spirits, ghosts, souls, or whichever word you choose to define it by in that family.

 

[Pachipro]

You pose an interesting point Shadow Spirit and I agree that we do agree.

OK, I will concede that a belief in kami, or spirits, can be considered a religion, but to be "religious" seems to connote a belief in a god or diety as can be seen in this link from dictionary.com which is too long to post here. A snippit:

noun1. a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" 2. an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Therefore, if Shinto is to be considered a religion, are those who follow it religious even if they do not believe in god per se?

Although I do not believe in religion or the "god" as taught by the three major sects in the world today would I be considered "religious" because I am an agnostic in that I believe in a creator of the universe. Based on the definition above, I guess the answer would be yes although I never considered myself to be religious in that I do not worship the creator as I believe he is above that and would not demand it and I do not "practice" it. It is just something I believe in my heart. If that makes me religious than I would have to say that I am.

Interesting perspective. Thanks.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Pachipro,

You are right, that to be religious would mean a person has to practice their beliefs in a mechanical solidarity method of thinking. Whatever those agreed upon rituals may be, that in itself is the religion, with those practicing it being religious. I don't think that to believe that Shinto is plausible, but to not to habitually practice in it can consider a person religious. Damn, I'm not even certain that to simply experiment with the idea of religion makes a person necessarily religious.

I guess the point I'm trying to make in my confused jumble; is that by textbook definition, practices of Shinto are considered a sect of religion. However to those of us who consider ourselves spiritual, agnostic, or atheists; from my personal opinion and experience usually side with the idea that they're not religious, simply just exploring the options available to them. Afterall, how can a person's opinion of creation and existence be respected if they don't try to understand reasons behind religion and science alike? In the end, a person may decide to side with one more than the other. Yet a free thinker knows not to limit themselves and to adopt empirical evidence as more substantial than faith.

You and I think alike on religion Pachipro. So I'm confident that you know precisely what point I'm conveying here. Oh by the way, I consider myself an atheist agnostic. I used to just consider myself agnostic, that was until I saw an interview with Penn Jilette (yes, the comedian magician) in which he made an interesting point about agnosticism. He said (not verbatim). "It's fine to declare yourself an agnostic. Yet in the end, you still have to decide whether you don't believe in deities and are trying to keep your mind open for proof that there could be some or if you do believe in deities but are keeping your mind open to the possibility that there aren't any. Either way, you still are either a theist or an atheist." I find that statement plausible and decided I am more on the side of atheism. Yet much like yourself Pachipro, I find a fascination and outlook towards the 'possibility' of spirits or an afterlife. Not saying I know for a fact there is one. Yet as long as the answers remain unknown, I will continue to keep the panel open for discussion of options. When it comes to those major belief systems you had brought up before. Yeah, definitely, I don't buy into it at all. I've done enough personal research to draw my conclusions and put those possibilities to rest.