I don't understand the grammar in the following sentences

Fociis · 27 Feb 2007

家では、買い物に行かせたりして、なるべく手伝いをさせるようにしています。

1. Why is the –りしてthere?

2. Why is the しています necessary since a form of the する verb is already there (させる)?

なるべく夕食に間に合うように帰るつもりです。

3. I don't understand the meaning and purpose of the 合うように clause above. Can someone please explain?

JimmySeal · 27 Feb 2007

~たり...~たりする is an expression that means "Do things like ~ and ~ and so on."

That should answer your first two questions.

moofs · 27 Feb 2007

1) ~たりする is a form that constructs a list of things (not in any particular order) that you do plus some things that aren't mentioned ("....and stuff").

For example, 昨日、宿題をしたり、テレビを見たりした。 would translate as "Yesterday I did my homework, watched some TV, and did some other stuff."

In your example, it would translate as: "At home, they get me to help around the house as much as possible by making me do the grocery shopping and some other stuff/chores," or "At home, they make me buy the groceries and do some other stuff so that I help around the house as much as possible."

2) なるべく手伝いをさせる is an independent clause, then the rest gets tacked on to make it "being made so that I help around as much as possible" (the "being" is the しています)

3) 間に合う is a set phrase meaning "to make it on time". Usually when a verb is followed by ように it means "so that .... verb". In your example, it would mean, in the literal sense, "I plan on returning as soon as possible so that I make it home on time for dinner", or more naturally, "I plan on getting home for dinner as soon as possible".

The7thSamurai · 27 Feb 2007

As JimmySeal said, ~たりする means "do things such as~". 今日飲んだり、食べたりしました = today I did things like eating and drinking.

買い物に行かせる = to make a person go shopping.

The first sentence would then mean "My family makes me do things like shopping".

verb + ようにしています = to make sure
手伝いをさせる = have a person help, or make a person help
So that sentence means "they make sure that they have me help as much as possible"

The overall sentence means something like, "my family makes me do things like shopping, and they see to it that they have me help (around the house?) as much as possible"

A smoother translation would be "my family makes me do stuff like shopping, and they always make sure that I'm helping as much as possible"

Fociis · 27 Feb 2007

Thank you everyone for your help. I get it now. What confused me was seeing して after -り. I was expecting to see another verb (not して). How stupid of me?!

Nagato · 27 Feb 2007

Bucko said:
The overall sentence means something like, "my family makes me do things like shopping, and they see to it that they have me help (around the house?) as much as possible"
A smoother translation would be "my family makes me do stuff like shopping, and they always make sure that I'm helping as much as possible"

Umm, I'm a little bit confused.
やる
やられる
やらせる
やらせられる？（やらされる？）
Can some one give more explanation about this verb changes and their names in Japanese (受身, I dont know the rest).
And the above sentence:家では、買い物に行かせたりして、なるべく手伝いをさせるようにしています。
I think the translation should be
(we/I) makes (she/he) do stuff like shopping, and always make sure that (she/he) is helping as much as possible.
どうかな？

The7thSamurai · 27 Feb 2007

Nagato said:
Umm, I'm a little bit confused.
やる
やられる
やらせる
やらせられる？（やらされる？）
Can some one give more explanation about this verb changes and their names in Japanese (受身, I dont know the rest).
And the above sentence:家では、買い物に行かせたりして、なるべく手伝いをさせるようにしています。
I think the translation should be
(we/I) makes (she/he) do stuff like shopping, and always make sure that (she/he) is helping as much as possible.
どうかな？

What makes you think it should be "I/we make him/her..."? It could be that, or it could be the way I said it. We don't know because there's no context given. The pronouns are hidden.

やる = do/will do
やられる = is done/will be done = passive
やらせる = will let/make/have him/her/I do = causative
やらせられる = will be made to do = passive causative

Sorry I don't have time to look up the names in Japanese.

Nagato · 27 Feb 2007

Bucko said:
What makes you think it should be "I/we make him/her..."? It could be that, or it could be the way I said it. We don't know because there's no context given. The pronouns are hidden.

Im used to assume, if the subject is hidden(or is not mentioned before) than it should be I/we (first person).

The7thSamurai · 27 Feb 2007

Nagato said:
I'm used to assume, if the subject is hidden(or is not mentioned before) than it should be I/we (first person).

If the subject is hidden then you can assume it's the same subject as the previously mentioned subject - i.e. a "hidden pronoun". That means it can be 'you', 'I', 'he', 'Bobby', 'that dog over there licking itself', 'that table' etc. Jay Rubin in 'Making Sense of Japanese' calls this the 'zero pronoun', the only true pronoun in Japanese.

If no subject was mentioned before, then either context, or verbs such as もらう、いただく、やる、あげる、くれる etc will tell you what the subjects are.

Elizabeth · 27 Feb 2007

3) 間に合う is a set phrase meaning "to make it on time". Usually when a verb is followed by ように it means "so that .... verb". In your example, it would mean, in the literal sense, "I plan on returning as soon as possible so that I make it home on time for dinner", or more naturally, "I plan on getting home for dinner as soon as possible".

"I intend to get home in time for dinner as much as possible."

Nagato · 2 Mar 2007

Bucko said:
If the subject is hidden then you can assume it's the same subject as the previously mentioned subject - i.e. a "hidden pronoun". That means it can be 'you', 'I', 'he', 'Bobby', 'that dog over there licking itself', 'that table' etc. Jay Rubin in 'Making Sense of Japanese' calls this the 'zero pronoun', the only true pronoun in Japanese.
If no subject was mentioned before, then either context, or verbs such as もらう、いただく、やる、あげる、くれる etc will tell you what the subjects are.

Ah found it (なるべく). This word shows the first person's will, wish, or advice. I don't know if this word can be used for second or third person. I think, that's why I still feel that the subject should be first person. Besides the hidden pronoun. (But maybe I wrong)

Thanks Bucko san. Usually hidden(unmentioned before) pronoun refers to first person. But I think I agree that some times it could be the second or third person.

Elizabeth · 2 Mar 2007

Nagato said:
h found it (なるIn this caseべく). This word shows the first person's will, wish, or advice. I don't know if this word can be used for second or third person. I think, that's why I still feel that the subject should be first person. Besides the hidden pronoun. (But maybe I wrong)
Thanks Bucko san. Usually hidden(unmentioned before) pronoun refers to first person. But I think I agree that some times it could be the second or third person.

なるべく can certainly be used with any subject in any type of sentence (statements, questions, commands, suggested requests, etc) with the meaning as....as possible.

(we/I) makes (she/he) do stuff like shopping, and always make sure that (she/he) is helping as much as possible.

This translation doesn't make sense to me given a sentence in the passive mode. The subject in that case is the one being made to do certain things under the control of an outside direct object. Specifically 'at home,' 'around the house', or more naturally by my/his/her/their...family.

Elizabeth · 2 Mar 2007

A smoother translation would be "my family makes me do stuff like shopping, and they always make sure that I'm helping as much as possible"

You also have to remember, though, that ようにする very often carries the softer connotation in English of "try to ensure" "makes an effort to see that....(something is done)。 This could easily be applied to the present case of a kid that is being made to do some shopping for the reason that his/her parents are perhaps increasingly trying to get them to help around the house as much as possible.

The7thSamurai · 3 Mar 2007

Elizabeth, isn't "try to ~" volitional form + とする?

mico · 4 Mar 2007

Bucko said:
やらせられる = will be made to do = passive causative

i don't understand this part. can anyone give me an example sentence?

The7thSamurai · 4 Mar 2007

私はTomにテニスをやらせられた = I was made to play tennis by Tom

undrentide · 4 Mar 2007

やらせられる sounds odd to me. (Maybe redundant?)
Normally it is やらされる (= was forced/made to do something).

The7thSamurai · 5 Mar 2007

undrentide said:
やらせられる sounds odd to me. (Maybe redundant?)
Normally it is やらされる (= was forced/made to do something).

His original question asked about やらせられる.

Also, it seems the long form of the passive causative form is more in favour with current day speakers. やれせられた gets almost six million results compared with 180,000 results for やらされた.

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undrentide · 5 Mar 2007

Yes, Bucko, I know you are just replying to the question by other member.
Sorry if my comments offended you, but my comments is not targeted solely to your post.

Maybe I'm the odd one who have different preference from my fellow Japanese speakers...

The7thSamurai · 5 Mar 2007

undrentide said:
Yes, Bucko, I know you are just replying to the question by other member.
Sorry if my comments offended you, but my comments is not targeted solely to your post.

Maybe I'm the odd one who have different preference from my fellow Japanese speakers...

Hey mate, no offense was made and I wasn't biting back at your claim at all. Honest! I was as much interested in your comment as the original guy was in knowing what やらせられる meant. Truth is that I've wanted to know more about the differences between the long form and abbreviated form for a while now and your comment prompted me to go do some quick research.

All smiles hey!

mico · 5 Mar 2007

thank you Bucho. now i get it.

undrentide said:
やらせられる sounds odd to me. (Maybe redundant?)
Normally it is やらされる (= was forced/made to do something).

so there is 2 forms for this thing.. which is better then??

Nagato · 5 Mar 2007

Just found Japanese name of causative and pasive causative.
from the text below:
causative = 使役形
passive causative = 使役受身形（使役形の受身形）
Plus some explanation about 短形 and 長形 of 使役受身形.

★１
シリーズ「気になることば」（No.36）
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
【サブさん】からのメール
Ｑ：正しいのはどちらですか？

１．思わずうならされた２．思わずうならせられた
職場の同僚がふとした会話の最中に２を口にしたのですが、私はなんか違和感を感
じて、それを言うなら１ではないかと言いました。すると同僚は、「だって、考え
させられるっていうじゃない。それと一緒よ」と反論したのです。
そう言われれば確かにそのとおりなのですが、でもそれとこれとはなんとなくパタ
ーンがちがう気がして…。そのちがいが自分の中でうまく説明できないのです。
単純な受け身と使役＋受け身の形は、いったいどのように使い分けたらいいのでし
ょう？
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
（以上、原文の一部。以下、かつみーこ）
まず最初のご質問（Ｑ）ですが、どちらも正しいと言えます。この１・２のよう
な動詞の形は、日本語文法では「使役受身形（使役形の受身形）」と呼んでいます
が、実は１は２の短(縮)形なのです。
長形短(縮)形
「行かせられる」 ⇒ 「行かされる」
「歌わせられる」 ⇒ 「歌わされる」
「うならせられる（た）」⇒ 「うならされる（た）」

短形のほうが言いやすいため、こちらを使う人のほうが断然多いのではないでしょ
うか。「行かせられる」「うならせられる」等、長形を耳にすることが少なくなっ
てきたように感じます。

ただ、この短形は五段動詞だけで、一段動詞や不規則動詞などは一つの言い方し
かありません。
例）考えさせられる・食べさせられる・感動させられる・来させられる…等等
サブさんが「パターンが違う気がして」と感じられたのは、このためでしょう。

さて、次に受身と使役受身の使い分けについてです。
受身というのは、英語の授業で習った「受動態」ですね。「先生が学生を叱る」
という文に対する「学生は先生に叱られる（受身）」のように、表現する立場が変
わる形です。

一方の使役受身ですが、これも結局は使役(形)の受身(形)のことですから、同様に
例えば「先生は学生を立たせる」という使役の文の立場を変えて、「学生は先生に
立たせられる/立たされる」とした形のことを言います。

もう少しわかりやすいように、「私」を主語に「飲む」という動詞を例に示して
みましょう。
(1)受身（受動態） (1)'(能動態）
「私はＡに酒を飲まれた」 ←「Ａは（私の）酒を飲んだ」
(2)使役受身 (2)'使役
「私はＢに酒を飲まされた/飲ませられた」←「Ｂは私に酒を飲ませた」
(1)の場合、酒を飲むのは「Ａ」で、(2)の場合、酒を飲むのは「私」であるという
点に注目すれば、その違いがわかりやすいでしょう。因みに［受身・使役受身］で
いくつか動詞を挙げておきます。文に入れて考えてみてください。
[書かれる・書かされる][歌われる・歌わされる][読まれる・読まされる][うなら
れる・うならされる][感動される・感動させられる][◎泣かれる・泣かされる]
……五段動詞は短形のみ記入。（◎日本語には自動詞の受身もあります）
＊＊＊＊＊

おわかりいただけたかな？後半の受身と使役受身の使い分けについては、その
意味を特徴的に表す例を出し、大枠を説明するにとどめました。外国の方からのご
質問ではなかったので、細かな点は省略しております。わかりにくいところなどあ
りましたら、ご連絡くださいね。ご感想やご意見等も大歓迎です。

from 日本語って難しい？やさしい？第207号 (2001年5月14日発行) | 日本語って難しい？やさしい？ - メルマ！

I don't understand the grammar in the following sentences

後輩

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先輩

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後輩

後輩

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後輩

Master of the Universe

先輩

後輩

先輩

先輩

Master of the Universe

先輩

Master of the Universe

Japa'n vagyok

Master of the Universe

Japa'n vagyok

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先輩

後輩

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