白い長袖シャツ is just "white long sleeve shirt".The examples in the groups below seem to mean the same thing. So how to choose what to use?
Where there is an adjective of the same word, why don't we use it?
白の長袖シャツ
白い長袖シャツ
白長袖シャツ
For instance, 松本の城(まつもとのしろ) refers to a castle/castles in a city Matsumoto, whereas 松本城(まつもとじょう) is the name of a specific castle "Matsumoto Castle".In terms of の, lots of names or proper nouns omit it and simply concatenate the nouns together or adjective and noun together. I suppose these are a different kettle of fish.
多くの人 can mean both "many of the people (not all the people)" and "many people", whereas 大勢の人 only means "many people".In English "many or much of something" refers to not all of something.
Example: Many of the beggars were blind. Many were unable to attend.
Has the Japanese version got the same connotation.
多くの人
多い人
大勢の人
Refer to the following threads.I also remember some な-adjectives have the same situation. The な-adjectives are often nouns as well. Instead of saying な-adjectives + noun, it says "noun の noun". If I replace "noun の" with its adjective version, I was told it's not acceptable. I forget the example that I could quote for reference though.
I'm not sure what that means. A lot if not most of the na-adjectives are classified as nouns as well in the dictionary I used, just like the example of 健康 you gave. I have always expected the word before の should be a noun so I can appreciate the difference between "自由な女神 vs. 自由の女神"Na-adjectives usually can't be used as nouns.
Incidentally all three example words quoted above are categorized as nouns and na-adjectives in the dictionary. So I don't understand why can't they take が or を.The no-adjectives we are talking about here(e.g. 大荒れ, 上々, がらあき)
If they are also na-adjectives, why can't they modify nouns directly?They also can't take な when modifying nouns, so it's not a na-adjective.
Should we say the hair of Japanese and Chinese is 黒髪 or 黒い髪 or 黒の髪? I would say 黒い髪. What could be the diffence? Having read all the suggested posts I'm still not quite sure. I do appreciate some of them like "自由な女神 vs. 自由の女神" and 黒い砂糖 vs 黒砂糖. However I still can't figure out 黒髪 or 黒い髪 or 黒の髪 and 黒猫 or 黒い猫 or 黒の猫 and 青の祓魔師 . Perhaps those with の, the word before it has a figurative meaning but I can't work out what figurative meaning they could have.黒髪[くろかみ]; "black hair", 黒猫[くろねこ]; "black cat".
Simply because those words belong to the group 2 "overlapping of noun and na-adjective".I'm not sure what that means. A lot if not most of the na-adjectives are classified as nouns as well in the dictionary I used, just like the example of 健康 you gave.
Simply because there is no other way to write that. As I wrote, "no-adjective" is not officially accepted. Dictionaries are not grammar books in the first place. There would be no intention (and space) to write those grammatical issues in detail, I think.Incidentally all three example words quoted above are categorized as nouns and na-adjectives in the dictionary.
Simply, that's a fact. You can't find any examples where those words are used as a noun.So I don't understand why can't they take が or を.
They are not na-adjectives, as I wrote in the thread. Check your dictionaries. Are there any example sentences that contain 大荒れな, 上々な or がらあきな?If they are also na-adjectives, why can't they modify nouns directly?
黒髪 is also common. No problem with 黒い髪, of course.Should we say the hair of Japanese and Chinese is 黒髪 or 黒い髪 or 黒の髪? I would say 黒い髪.
No difference. 黒髪 is one of the examples that simply the color is black without any special meanings as well as 黒猫, 黒雲, 白シャツ, 白犬, etc. You need to remember the meaning of 黒砂糖 (completely different from 黒い砂糖) and 黒猫( the same as 黒い猫) as vocabulary learning.What could be the diffence? Having read all the suggested posts I'm still not quite sure.
I already explained about 青の祓魔師 in the thread. Notice that only the readers of the manga can know the figurative meaning of 青, which the writer implies in the title. People in general don't know the connotation unless reading it (but we can feel that 青 must have a special meaning in the title, not simply "the color is blue", because of の).However I still can't figure out 黒髪 or 黒い髪 or 黒の髪 and 黒猫 or 黒い猫 or 黒の猫 and 青の祓魔師 . Perhaps those with の, the word before it has a figurative meaning but I can't work out what figurative meaning they could have.
Knowing the classification is one thing, being able to use the words effectively and correctly is more important to me.Here's a classification system of nouns and adjectives propounded by a linguist 村木新次郎.
I had supposed the nouns exist before na-adjectives. That is na-adjectives were created from nouns.This is from a theory that all the stems of na-adjectives should be treated as nouns.
I shall try to remember them as exceptions in order to justify the rules I have learnt so far.Simply, that's a fact. You can't find any examples where those words are used as a noun.
Yes, that was what I meant. I think linguist calls them attributives.What do you mean by "directly"? You mean without な, by any chance?
Then which one is most common? 黒の髪?黒髪 is also common. No problem with 黒い髪, of course.
It seems to me not every adjective+noun without the の or い in between has a non-literal meaning, such as 黒猫( the same as 黒い猫) as you provided.黒砂糖 (completely different from 黒い砂糖)
By the same token, is it possible "noun/adjective+の noun" has no non-literal meaning since you say "CAN HAVE"? In other words, it simply means nothing else but white long-sleeved shirt in the example quoted.白の長袖シャツ can have different meaning.
As you can see "+" and "-" in the table, adjectives in group 7 have two attributive and predicative forms, the ones as a na-adjective and an i-adjective.what is partial overlapping on group 7 and group 8? Could I have some examples please?
Group 5 are not nouns. We can't make a natural sentence using them with が or を.What is group 5? Is it a na-adjective which is also a noun used to modify another noun with the particle の?
Group 4 don't have ―な attributive form, unlike group 5.What is the difference between group 4 and group 5?
Here's a list of na-adjectives used in JLPT, i.e., relatively common ones.I shall try to remember them as exceptions in order to justify the rules I have learnt so far.
The attributive form(連体形) is used when a na-adjective modifies a noun. The stem can't modify a noun directly. That's more likely a usage as a noun.Yes, that was what I meant.
The attributive form is different from a part of speech "attributive (連体詞)", as I mentioned above regarding 大きな, 小さな or おかしな.I think linguist calls them attributives.
黒髪 and 黒い髪 are equally common. 黒の髪 is uncommon.Then which one is most common? 黒の髪?
That's exactly what I meant.It seems to me not every adjective+noun without the の or い in between has a non-literal meaning, such as 黒猫( the same as 黒い猫) as you provided.
Right. That's why I used "can". Unlike 黒の髪, 白のシャツ usually simply refers to "white shirt".By the same token, is it possible "noun/adjective+の noun" has no non-literal meaning since you say "CAN HAVE"? In other words, it simply means nothing else but white long-sleeved shirt in the example quoted.
As I already wrote in my initial reply, when you make a Japanese sentence, it's safe to use the attributive form of adjectives (黒い髪, 白いシャツ) even if 黒髪 or 白のシャツ has the same meaning.Knowing the classification is one thing, being able to use the words effectively and correctly is more important to me.
I wan't sure what those + or - meant at first glance.As you can see "+" and "-" in the table, adjectives in group 7 have two attributive and predicative forms,
Incidentally all the given examples are classified as na-adjectives and nouns in dictionary.Group 5 are not nouns.
I would taken them as exceptions to the norms. Is it appropriate?We can't make a natural sentence using them with が or を.
Do you mean as an attributive these adjectives will ALWAYS take a の instead of a な?The attributive form ―の exists other than ―な in this group.
Incidentally all the given examples are classified as na-adjectives and nouns in dictionary.Group 4 don't have ―な attributive form,
Are you saying in spite of what the dictionaries classify them as all these don't behave like na-adjectives or nouns? I wonder why the dictionaries would have to classify them as such. Isn't it confusing and unhelpful?The no-adjectives we are talking about here(e.g. 大荒れ, 上々, がらあき) have completely different characteristics from 静か, 健康 or 自由. They can't take が or を, so it's not a noun. They also can't take な when modifying nouns, so it's not a na-adjective. They basically act as an adjective, but take の when modifying nouns.
I can understand 自由 and 親切 which are classified as na-adjectives as well as nouns whereas 静か is a na-adjective only. However 穏やか is classified as both na-adjectives as well as nouns. See 穏やか - Jisho.org.The attributive form(連体形) is used when a na-adjective modifies a noun. The stem can't modify a noun directly.
Indeed there is a tendency that 大きな is relatively often used with abstractness, and 大きい is with physicality, but it's not so strictly distinguished. You just need to pay attention to some set phrases such like 大きなお世話だ, 大きな顔をする or 大きな口をたたく, where 大きい sounds awkward. Roughly speaking, 大きな/小さな can be used as an attributive (= when modifying a noun) in almost all cases.I do have problems with those adjectives which are na-adjectives as well i-adjectives. I have looked up for examples the following on the Internet. Some say one refers to the attribute of physicality and the other abstractness. However I have never got a conclusive answer because discussions from various sites are contradictory.
As I already pointed out and explained in this post, the definitions in dictionaries are useless for this matter.Incidentally all the given examples are classified as na-adjectives and nouns in dictionary.
The most common definition of nouns is whether we can make a natural sentence using the word with が or を. Thus, if a word can't be used with が or を, it shouldn't be classified into nouns.I would taken them as exceptions to the norms. Is it appropriate?
If you mean whether な and の are interchangeable, yes. There might be some cases that one is more common/natural than the other, though.Do you mean as an attributive these adjectives will ALWAYS take a の instead of a な?
Other examples of this group; 遺憾, 一律, 格段, 肝心, 自在, etc., etc.. Is there a reason you mentioned "Chinese origin"?For some reasons only 特別 out of the examples is set out as No-adjective as well. And it also happens that this seems to be the only one more Chinese originated.
Again and again, the definitions in dictionaries are useless for this matter. You can't find ANY examples that those words are used as a noun (i.e., a natural sentence that contains for instance 大荒れが or 大荒れを).Incidentally all the given examples are classified as na-adjectives and nouns in dictionary.
Exactly. It's useless, as I wrote above. Native speakers naturally feel that a word can or cannot be used with の, が or を unconsciously whether it's called a noun, na-adjective or no-adjective in dictionaries. Some non-native learners realize the problem in the definition, as several members asked about it even just in this forum so far like you. Linguists know the problem, of course. In fact, what we are talking about here is a highly linguistic issue. That's another reason general standard dictionaries are useless in this case.Are you saying in spite of what the dictionaries classify them as all these don't behave like na-adjectives or nouns? I wonder why the dictionaries would have to classify them as such. Isn't it confusing and unhelpful?
Again and again and again, the definitions in dictionaries are useless for this matter. You don't need to post the links to dictionaries anymore since they can't be an evidence.I can understand 自由 and 親切 which are classified as na-adjectives as well as nouns whereas 静か is a na-adjective only. However 穏やか is classified as both na-adjectives as well as nouns. See 穏やか - Jisho.org.
わずか- 特別- さまざま-
I was trying to figure out why 特別 was indicated as の-adjective as well in the dictionary I used while the other two were not. So I was wondering whether it was because the word consists of kanji and read with 音読み.Is there a reason you mentioned "Chinese origin"?
Do you think those Japanese to Japanese dictionaries you recommended before would do a better job in this regard? I shall certainly consider having one of them when my language ability is good enough.Again and again and again, the definitions in dictionaries are useless for this matter.