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How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

There exists some classifications of verbs. A famous linguist 金田一春彦 classified Japanese verbs into four types (状態動詞, 継続動詞, 瞬間動詞, 第四種の動詞) from the point of view of "aspect." That's the one Elizabeth-san explained in detail. 思う belongs to 状態動詞, verbs whose dictionary form can express the present state, same as ある, いる, できる...
Though I haven't ever read Genki, Group2, Group3 seems to refer to 継続動詞, 瞬間動詞 respectively.
 
I think I am becoming very ambitious in my questions, yet I have improper grammar to back them up. In fact in English I just made a grammatical mistake! : (

I'll post the latest pictures of my meeting with another Japanese teacher later on. Thursday, most likely. If you're waiting for the older papers my Japanese teacher lost them :\
 
And before we forget there was a question at all, how about trying it out on these 期間 (duration) things again...;-)



i went for an hour, i went out for an hour, i rode the bus for an hour, i borrowed for an hour...(for 借りる、substitute 'hired' or 'rented' for an hour).
 
I actually have no idea, to be honest...

Here is that image I discussed with a Japanese teacher:



I find myself either forgetting Kanji, forgetting sections / parts of Kanji, or getting half of it right (for the Ch7 end I got correct the left half of owaru (thread) and then for some reason I put the right part of ushiro...)


These are the three sentences (for now) that I will be asking tomorrow:

1) I went to school early because i wanted to meet with my teacher.
2) I thought you said you went yesterday to meet with your teacher.
3) Did you buy anything last night? Yes, I bought four tickets, dinner, and old, inexpensive sake.

You may wonder why, but take a look at everything I've done so far...this, I think, is a nice summary. It will have past tense, short form, adjectives, etc......this is an over extension...

---

What is the difference between gurai and goro? If I wanted to say, I know about 600 kanji: roppyaku kanji gurai o shitte imasu?
And since -da is the end of a polite noun, watashi wa nihon no gakusee da?
 
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Well undrentide, it is thursday, and I re-read those things you posted! I understand what you are saying for the most part.

This:


I did not get.

I also don't understand the
This is overly boring and easy.
kore wa tsumarana sugi te yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumarana sugiru shi yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumaranaku te yasashi sugiru.
kore wa tsumaranai shi yasashi sugiru.
Click to expand...
still :\. Is shi another particle? Am I missing something here?

Aaaaand:


Does this have anything to do with this:

I read that and didn't see kaeru in it.

Elizabeth san said:
ni ikanai to omoimasu....
Click to expand...

Now is this because you always need the "plain/polite" form before -to omoimasu?

I'll surface two questions for clarification:
Why is it itte imasu instead of iimasu then?
why cant i say omotte imasu instead of omoimasu?
Click to expand...
 
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Putrefaction said:
What is the difference between gurai and goro? If I wanted to say, I know about 600 kanji: roppyaku kanji gurai o shitte imasu?
And since -da is the end of a polite noun, watashi wa nihon no gakusee da?
Click to expand...
ﾂ債? is used basically only for "temporal."
窶愿ｱﾅｽﾅｾﾂ債?ﾂ、窶督ｾ窶愿ｺﾂ債?ﾂ、4ﾅ椎ｽﾂ債?ﾂ、窶ｰﾃ?債?ﾂ、窶藩??扼ﾂ債?,,,

600ﾅ?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡窶堋ｭ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢窶冦窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ might be acceptable, but ﾅ?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡窶堙ｰ600(ﾅｽﾅ｡)窶堋ｭ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢窶冦窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ would be more common.

窶堋ｾ is an informal copula.
 
ごろ/ぐらい (what Toritoribe-san said)

http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson-e40.htm (Omotte iru/omoimasu)
I don't recall the context for "ni ikanai to omoimasu.." Sorry.

As a reference for thorny grammar questions from advanced students, these explanations may work fine....but for a beginner, I wonder isn't it seriously too detailed and too specific...??
 


Thanks! This is what i was looking for!
The reason i was asking is because a friend of mine, who is learning japanese, asked me how come some verbs have continuative meanings and some dont. It got me thinking.
i guess its just a definiton thing.

btw, is the -teiru form redundant with ﾂ湘ｳ窶佚披?慊ｮﾅｽﾅ?
 
The reverse. ﾂ湘ｳ窶佚披?慊ｮﾅｽﾅ are stative which means they don't have a -te iru form. The ones that can take that as a present interpretation are not purely stative besides also requiring a slight change in meaning.


ﾂ湘ｳ窶佚披?慊ｮﾅｽﾅ (Short list in Japanese)

"iru"(exist), "aru"(exist), "dekiru",(be able to do) "yosuru"(require), "ataisuru"(be worth), "wakaru"(be able to understand), etc. and potential verbs like "kireru"(can cut), "hanaseru"(can speak).
 
Toritoribe: That's the one Elizabeth-san explained in detail. 思う belongs to 状態動詞, verbs whose dictionary form can express the present state, same as ある, いる, できる...

Elizabeth: http://homepage3.nifty.com/i-yasu/Lesson-e40.htm (Omotte iru/omoimasu)

The reverse. 状態動詞 are stative which means they don't have a -te iru form. The ones that can take that as a present interpretation are not purely stative besides also requiring a slight change in meaning.

??

So most of them cant take -te iru?
and the ones that can have a change in meaning?

gomen, Im kind of slow >.<;
 
Putrefaction said:
Is shi another particle? Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...
Yes. 窶堋ｵ acts as an ordinary conjugation in that sentence, the antonym of 窶堋ｯ窶堙?窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙?

Putrefaction said:
Does this have anything to do with this:

I read that and didn't see kaeru in it.
Click to expand...
窶堋､窶堋ｿ窶堙俄?ｹA窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
Somebody has gone home/is in his/her home.
or
I have come home/am in my home.

Putrefaction said:
Now is this because you always need the "plain/polite" form before -to omoimasu?
Click to expand...
Yes. Masu-form can't be used before 窶堙?ｽv窶堋､.
 
Please refer to the posts below.



aardwolf said:
So most of them cant take -te iru?
and the ones that can have a change in meaning?
Click to expand...
Some of ﾂ湘ｳ窶佚披?慊ｮﾅｽﾅ can take te-form. And a part of them, mainly verbs of "relation"(ﾅｽ窶板坂?｡窶堋､, ﾋ?｡窶堋､, ﾋ?吮?堙遺?堙ｩ, ﾅ?ﾃ懌?堙?,,) and 窶伉ｶﾂ催昶?堋ｷ窶堙ｩ, change little in meaning between the dictionary form and te-form.
 
A few more mixed stative-resultative from the dictionary : 信じている、属している、持っている、知っている、に似ている、が見える。。。). Some of these are hardly ever in the stative (non te) form, though. Another thing is they're similar to a lot of the emotion/feeling verbs or verb phrases (but of those like below which might be considered purely punctual ?)

腹を立てている、恐れている、驚いている、感動している。。。
 


Okay! Thanks!
 
Alright so sorry guys, here is one of the images that I am going to scan. It's being incredibly slow and I have class at 11.
 
Putrefaction said:
Alright so sorry guys, here is one of the images that I am going to scan. It's being incredibly slow and I have class at 11.
Click to expand...
The second sentence isn't quite working out for me, perhaps I'm misreading, maybe one thing is just a bit lacking -- a near miss -- or 今一 as they say in Japanese.

I think there are fish that you can catch (to ship?) at the bottom of the lake.

その湖の底に・で（は）、捕れる魚がいると思います。??
 
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It was a "+ a", as you (may, but now definitely) know I do Japanese with my left hand and at that point I just used shorthand.

It should read, literal japanese to english:

lake's underneath at fish are and ship lake's at bottom i think is.

Now,

I think there are fish underneath the lake and a ship at the lake's bottom.

(I combined ga...i/aru, the ni particle of location, the -te form, and "I think" - three lessons from Genki).

The other papers I scan will be like this, I got tired of doing linear things, now I'm combining stuff I've learned before.

In case anyone was wondering, I just had to re-do the "because" in the first sentence. If I may say so that's the most complex thing I've ever come up with in Japanese.
 
Tomorrow when I come home from watashi no keezai no shiken I will post some more papers!
 
Oops. Sorry for the triple post, I couldn't edit.







That's all I have, folks!

Now that I'm off of school, I am going to review Kanji 1-700 including all strokes, on/kun and compounds / sentences, Genki Lessons 1-10, and advance myself further. Expect a lot more posts, a lot more editing. Thanks for everyone who helps!

By the way, anyone want to help me decipher what I wrote for those last two images? As a side note, I thought light was dento, as in 電灯.

--
e1: What are the differences between 求 and 願 ? And how would I actually say that? I believe difference is 異同... so, could I say, 求と願の異同は何ですか? And if 成 is to become, would you use the actual Kanji to say something has become, or is it like --tai miru where you don't use the Kanji, just the hiragana?
e2: I'm doing the Genki review and I'll post some images I did from there, just simple q's and a's for now, but I want to make sure I'm doing them all right.
 
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Putrefaction said:
I thought light was dento, as in 窶彭窶懌??
Click to expand...
Yes, light is 窶彭窶懌?? 窶彭窶ｹC窶堙ｰ窶堙や?堋ｯ窶堙ｩ/ﾂ湘≫?堋ｷ is a set phrase for "to turn on/off a light."

Putrefaction said:
What are the differences between 窶ｹﾂ and ﾅ?ﾃｨ ?
Click to expand...
Roughly,
窶ｹﾂ≫?堙溪?堙ｩ: to demand/request
ﾅ?ﾃｨ窶堋､: to wish/hope

But, to say more accurately, the answer is "depending on the context."

"Difference" sould be ﾋ?｡窶堋｢ in that context.

Putrefaction said:
And if ﾂ青ｬ is to become, would you use the actual Kanji to say something has become, or is it like --tai miru where you don't use the Kanji, just the hiragana?
Click to expand...
Generally, hiragana
 
Cool, thanks. Did you understand everything I wrote and did I get it right?

So far I did like 680 Kanji and Lessons 1-5 before my brain died...

---
e1: I got up early and thought this sentence made sense:
ここでだれが住んでいますか?

ここでperson-さんの家族が住んでいます.

This is from Genki chapter 9, I think. Maybe 10. But more importantly (I think important is 大切な?) is it right?



It may be me but these are incredibly complex for Rosetta Stone's lesson 1...I got tired of copy pasting so here is romaji.

hikoki no shita ni iru otoko no hito. I guess this is really quite casual or maybe I haven't learned the sentence structure yet? Missing a ga, i think. or just omitted. The list goes on like such, I believe, positioning the person after iru below or above.



So based on these and the above picture, could I say:

shinbun o yonde iru person-san. ?
I'm also wondering about the second example with de after denwa. Why is it de?
 
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窶堋ｱ窶堋ｱ窶堙閏/COLOR]窶堋ｾ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｪﾂ住窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩ?

窶堋ｱ窶堋ｱ窶堙閏/COLOR]person-窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ窶堙娯?ｰﾃ??伉ｰ窶堋ｪﾂ住窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

Putrefaction said:
hikoki no shita ni iru otoko no hito. I guess this is really quite casual or maybe I haven't learned the sentence structure yet? Missing a ga, i think. or just omitted.
Click to expand...
That isn't a sentence but a phrase.

hikouki no shita ni iru otoko no ko: the boy (who is) under the airplane

You once saw this structure here in this thread.;-)

Putrefaction said:
I'm also wondering about the second example with de after denwa. Why is it de?
Click to expand...
窶堙? by means of
ﾅｽﾂｩ窶彎ﾅｽﾃ披?堙??wﾂ校窶堙可行窶堋ｭﾂ。
 
Is it ni? I wonder why, does sunde require ni instead of de, kind of like the -ga aru/iru?

Oh yes, I meant to put ko, perhaps I was just thinking of something else, haha. From your other post, I think I just learned that in Lesson 9.

I'm only up to lesson 7 in review, I'll scan some stuff I did (hopefully correct) so I will re-read that when I hit lesson 9, hopefully by tomorrow or so. Right now that image I posted makes sense to me, but that sentence Elizabeth posted, and the Rosetta Stone doesn't make too much sense to me.

I see, by means of...
Just quickly, let's say I wanted to say "I went to Tokyo from Kyoto by plane":

Kyoto kara Tokyo ni Hikoki de itta.
(Or what feels more natural to me, hikoki de kyoto kara tokyo ni itta.)

--
e1: So I was doing 7 and I came across a small table,


So I thought, here is my own table.
Tabete imasu: ... is eating.
Tabenai: ... is not eating, casual.
Tabeta: ... was eating, casual.
Tabenakatta: ... was not eating, casual.

Are these all correct? I think I did this a few pages back and I can't believe I forgot all this stuff...thanks! I'll rep everyone as soon as I can!

--
e2: Well that was fast.


Can anyone make a sentence for me with this? I tried to come up with something, maybe something like "There are two people watching TV". Is this a combination of the adnominal thing and this new concept? Maybe this is right: Terebi o mite iru hito ga futari imasu. I'm not sure that's right, however...

--
e3: I made this small conversation up between two people. See if it works for this rule:

(At first I was confused, I thought it took the place of the particle)

今日は、Putrefaction. 昨日、どこに行った？
市場に行った。
ああ。何か買った？
はい、自転車を買った。

Thank you once again!
 
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Putrefaction said:
Is it ni? I wonder why, does sunde require ni instead of de, kind of like the -ga aru/iru?
Click to expand...

For static verbs such as sumu, iru, etc., particle "ni" is used to indicate the place.

Putrefaction said:
I see, by means of...
Just quickly, let's say I wanted to say "I went to Tokyo from Kyoto by plane":

Kyoto kara Tokyo ni Hikoki de itta.
(Or what feels more natural to me, hikoki de kyoto kara tokyo ni itta.)
Click to expand...

It is correct.
As for word order, it does not make huge difference, but it depends on what you want to say (i.e. emphasize)
Usually what you want to say comes first:
- kyoto kara tokyo made hikouki de itta. (this is I think is the most common. ni is OK for destination but in this context made sounds more natural.)
- hikouki de kyouto kara tokyo ni itta (by plane, not by train, etc.)
- tokyo ni wa kyouto kara hikouki de itta. (as for how I got to tokyo)



Tabete iru/tabete imasu: ... is eating. casual/polite
Tabeteinai imasen: ... is not eating, casual.
Tabeteita imashita: ... was eating, casual.
Tabeteinakatta: ... was not eating, casual. [/quote]

What you wrote is simple tense (do not eat, ate, did not eat) not present/past continuous. For ongoing activities, you need to add "iru".


Your sentence is correct.


Yes, the last four sentences are all OK.

Just for your reference on 窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｩ and 窶ｰﾂｽ窶堙?ﾂ（ﾂ〜窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ）
窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｩ窶敞停?堙≫?堋ｽﾂ？ Did you buy something?
窶ｰﾂｽ窶堙?窶敞停?堙ｭ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。 I did not buy anything.
 
Wow, thank you! I left some rep, thanks so much!

As for your first response, "made" would be a particle that I am not familiar with, is it like a casual ni? I can see the different phrasings meaning so many different things!

As for the second one, d'oh! I didn't even notice I missed the -te forms, you are good! And I was correct for the people watching television! Damn! I was just thinking of Toritoribe's post and then I combined it with this, that's really weird! I found two more examples in my book I'm going to try to do:


1) Anata no daigaku ni gakusei ga nannin imasu ka?
So for this part, I understand everything, it just seems weird. How many people are at your college?
Sanzennin ga imasu. I'm not sure how to answer it other than that?

2) Anata no machi ni hito ga nannin sunde imasu ka?
This is more weird for me. How many people are living in your town? Like the first one, I understand what it means but the structure is not fitting in for me.
Nimannin gurai sunde imasu.
I'm having a mental block. Not sure why!

As for the last one, can I say in response to not buying anything:
何を買いたかった? (What did you want to buy?)
新しい自転車を買いたかった. (I wanted to buy a new bike.)


I am going to go over これは日本で売っていない本です but at this point, along with the Rosetta Stone images and the most recent image, I don't understand them...like, I can understand the sentence but the structure isn't making sense yet.
 
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