Help with this sentence

Toritoribe · 21 Feb 2017

10)
はいっちゃって, not はいちゃって.
Is that the only meaning of ～てしまう your textbook provides? I can't believe it.

先 refers to 私より先.
All those definitions are basically the same; doing something previously(it's possible that the agent is not the speaker) and leaving it in the state for a purpose. The example sentence shows that "the addressee already ate dinner when the speaker arrived home" can be a preparation; she doesn't need to prepare dinner after arriving home, for instance.

You don't need to revise your composition, by the way?

Narktor · 21 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
Is that the only meaning of ～てしまう your textbook provides? I can't believe it.

Well, it is, next to the past-tense form, which says that something is finished.

coming back for the rest later, thanks!

Oh, and that one regrets the action expressed through the verb before しまいました。 But it was restricted to the past form, at least as far as the explanation went.

Toritoribe said:
くれる doesn't make sense since the conjugation form and the choice of the verb are both wrong.

But I've written 遅れる^^ admittedly without the kanji, seems to have slipped my attention...
もしもし、田中です。すみません、電車でくれることをきめたんですが、電車を間違えて
しまったんです。だから30ぷんほどおくれる

I'll unify the level of politeness, but overall this helps little for my progress since my textbook still sticks to the grammaticalization of the level of politeness.
Pretty much all the texts I get to work with use the plain forms as an indicator for certain grammatical constructions, independently from the level of politeness the text in question uses. Therefore I don't really have an understanding for the grammatical contexts in which the polite form is allowed and for those in which it isn't.

For a few cases my textbook has already explicitely pointed where polite form is allowed as an alternative. But I can count those on one hand ^^

=>
もしもし、田中だ。すみません、電車でくれることをきめたんだが、電車を間違えて
しまったんだ。だから30ぷんほど遅れる。

11)
けいこさんが、今日急な仕事が入って遅くなりそうなので、晩ご飯を先に食べるようにというメッセージをいれました。
=> Keiko left a message saying that they should have dinner early (=before her return), because urgent business came up and it seemed likely that she would be late.

This is how I would translate it, however 遅く gives me a headache.
I only know 遅れる、I haven't seen any variation with a masu-stem おく, it's always been 遅れ。I don't know of grammatical process yet within which the masu-stem itself is transformed.
What is this?

Toritoribe · 22 Feb 2017

8)
I pointed out about your mistake about くれる, not おくれる. Is the problem on your carelessness or my rely? Is it better to say repeatedly "again and again and again,,," or should I have written 電車でくれる instead?
すいません is still polite. Don't you think that it's far easier just to change 遅れる into the polite form?

10)
It's also the same for the present tense, not regret but something bad for the speaker will occur/be done(future) or repeatedly occurs/is done(habitual action), though.
e.g.
このままだと試合に負けてしまう。
目の前に甘いものがあるとつい食べてしまう。

はいっちゃって is actually the past or present perfect tense はいってしまった in your example sentence, by the way. She seems to be late because some urgent business came up/has come up, not "will come up". The -te form indicates the cause/reason of the following clause, as same as はいってしまったから, not はいってしまうから there.

11)
Look up another reading of 遅 in your dictionary.

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

about 8)
Ahhh, okay I'm still often confusing wether to use いく or くれる, not because I wouldn't know that if someone comes to the speakers place it's くれる and when it's vice versa its いく, but because I somehow manage to screw the directions up in my head for some reason...

もしもし、田中だ。すまない、電車で行くことをきめたんだが、電車を間違えて
しまったんだ。だから30ぷんほど遅れる。

Yes I would've had less words to change if I did it vice versa, but some of the constructions here I've never even seen in polite form. That's why I chose plain form for the whole sentence, because I'm more familiar with it.

Toritoribe · 22 Feb 2017

8)
I pointed out that the conjugation form and the choice of the verb are both wrong. What is the Japanese verb for "to come"?

Does that mean you can't think of the polite form of 遅れる? It seems to me to be a pure beginner level question.

Your final composition is grammatically correct, but it wouldn't be used in a real conversation. The non-polite/casual version would be あ、田中だけど、電車で行こうと思ったんだけど、乗り間違えちゃったから30分くらい遅れるかもしれない。ごめんね。 or like that. Note that it's usually easier for learners to make polite conversations than casual ones.

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
Does that mean you can't think of the polite form of 遅れる? It seems to me to be a pure beginner level question.

No, but there's still a bunch of other verbs in this sentence which are plain form and of which I don't/didn't know wether they have to be transformed into polite forms or not.

Toritoribe said:
I pointed out that the conjugation form and the choice of the verb are both wrong. What is the Japanese verb for "to come"?

I don't know what you mean by conjugation form then. I could transform it into:
...電車でいくことにするんだが、...
But I doubt you meant that by conjugation form since that feels more like I rephrased it ^^
EDIT: Usually I'd say that た-form, て-form and so on are the conjugations.
It's just that I don't see what other conjugation I should use here Oo

to come:
私は先生のお宅へ行く。=> I (the speaker) come to the teachers house.
あなたは私のうちに来ます。=> You (not the speaker) come to my house.

These are the words I'd associate with "to come" the most in japanese

Toritoribe · 22 Feb 2017

What is the plain/non-polite form of 来ます? That's what I mean.

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
What is the plain/non-polite form of 来ます? That's what I mean.

****.
来る.
I read it multiple times, but not only didn't I notice that くれる is wrong, but I was sure it was right xD
Sorry ^^

Toritoribe · 22 Feb 2017

I initially thought that you meant the potential form of くる, i.e., こられる by くれる. That's why I wrote the conjugation form.

Incidentally, a polite version is like this;
もしもし、田中です。電車で行くことにしたんですが/行こうと思ったんですが、電車を間違えてしまったんです/しまいました。だから30分ほど遅れます。すみません。

As you can see, your initial translation is not so bad except くれる and 遅れます.

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
はいっちゃって is actually the past or present perfect tense はいってしまった in your example sentence, by the way. She seems to be late because some urgent business came up/has come up, not "will come up".

Right, but this must be concluded by context, right? Formally there's no difference, as there wouldn't be one in the long form 入ってしまって.
Thanks!

Toritoribe said:
The -te form indicates the cause/reason of the following clause, as same as はいってしまったから, not はいってしまうから there.

I must admit that I don't really get what you wanted to tell me with that last part, but I completely agree with the first part.

Toritoribe said:
As you can see, your initial translation is not so bad except くれる and 遅れます.

Thanks!

Toritoribe · 22 Feb 2017

Yes, the -te form can be the present tense depending on the context.

はいってしまったから because some urgent business came up/has come up vs. はいってしまうから because some urgent business will come up

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
11)
Look up another reading of 遅 in your dictionary.

Hmm, the only promising reading I could find on jisho was this:
Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary
I tried using goo jisho but it displayed 36 pages of results Oo
On the first page I couldn't find anything that seemed more helpful than on jisho, and I must admit that my motivation didn't suffice to make it through the following 35 pages...^^
btw. how did you make "goo jisho" display english?
I used your link so it worked, but it's all in japanese and I can't really use it that way ^^

However, 遅れ is a noun and right now I can't think of anything that would make a noun change it's last consonant to く.
A hypothetical い-adjective 遅い could replace い with く when in relation to 成る.
In this construction, the noun 遅れ would have a に particle attached though...

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
はいってしまったから because some urgent business came up/has come up vs. はいってしまうから because some urgent business will come up

okay, thanks!

Toritoribe · 22 Feb 2017

Narktor said:
I tried using goo jisho but it displayed 36 pages of results

遅く returns only 7 results.

Narktor said:
A hypothetical い-adjective 遅い could replace い with く when in relation to 成る.

Is there any reason you didn't choose that hypothesis?

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
Is there any reason you didn't choose that hypothesis?

I've never before seen something like that, not as far as I can think of right now.
Whenever nouns were modified, it was done via attachment of a particle or something the like. I've never seen something like this before where it seems like a noun had a stem with endings attached to it.

Toritoribe · 22 Feb 2017

I'm talking about い-adjective 遅い could replace い with く .

Narktor · 22 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
I'm talking about い-adjective 遅い could replace い with く .

Well, I didn't find an い-adjective 遅い. And since the masu-stem is 遅れ I couldn't categorize it as a case where a masu-stem functions as an い-adjective. And as I said it is an unknown case to me that a noun's stem is modified and thereby becomes an い-adjective.

Toritoribe · 23 Feb 2017

Er, does that mean you didn't realize that an i-adjective 遅い is not derived from a verb 遅れる yet? I already gave you a hint "another reading of 遅" in my initial reply...

Narktor · 23 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
Er, does that mean you didn't realize that an i-adjective 遅い is not derived from a verb 遅れる yet? I already gave you a hint "another reading of 遅" in my initial reply...

Yes, I researched other readings and I already said that I haven't learned of any case/rule yet in which a masu-stem 遅れ- is transformed into 遅.
I've learned of no case/rule yet in which the stem itself is modified.

PaulTB · 23 Feb 2017

Narktor said:
However, 遅れ is a noun and right now I can't think of anything that would make a noun change it's last consonant to く.
A hypothetical い-adjective 遅い could replace い with く when in relation to 成る..

遅れ is a noun. 遅れ does not change to 遅く. The adjective 遅い is NOT hypothetical.

Does that clear things up at all? If not, then maybe take a look at the readings for the kanji 遅
遅 [JIS] 4359 [Uni] 9045 [部首] 162 [教育] 8 [画数] 12 [画数] 11 [異体字] 遲 [音] チ [訓] おく.れる おく.らす おそ.い [名] じ [英] slow; late; back; later

Toritoribe · 23 Feb 2017

Here's other examples; 汚い（きたない） vs. 汚れる（よごれる）, 優しい（やさしい） vs. 優れる（すぐれる）. The adjectives have nothing to do with the verbs. It's just the same kanji is used. Even jisho.org you linked provides the reading おそい, and you can get an example sentence 彼は昨夜遅く帰宅した, which can be a hint, just by clicking the link. It seems to me that this is also another example of your "carelessness"...

Narktor · 23 Feb 2017

PaulTB said:
The adjective 遅い is NOT hypothetical.

I already got that far, I just said that A I couldn't find an entry for an い-adjective 遅い at jish.org and goo jisho and that B I don't know what grammatical process/rule produces this adjective, since the nominal and verbal base for this adjective have the stem 遅れ.

Toritoribe · 23 Feb 2017

As I wrote above, おそい is not derived from おくれる. These are different words.

PaulTB · 23 Feb 2017

I couldn't find an entry for an い-adjective 遅い at jish.org and goo jisho

遅い - Jisho.org
おそい【遅い／鈍い】の意味 - goo国語辞書

Narktor · 23 Feb 2017

Toritoribe said:
Here's other examples; 汚い vs. 汚れる, 優しい vs. 優れる. The adjectives have nothing to do with the verbs. It's just the same kanji is used. Even jisho.org you linked provides the reading おそい, and you can get an example sentence 彼は昨夜遅く帰宅した, which can be a hint, just to click the link. It seems to me that this is also another example of your "carelessness"...

Yes, this is true, but it doesn't change the fact that here http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170222/5pi9lu4g.jpg
my textbook gave me the form "おくく" => 遅く in furigana. I hypothesized that this could only stem from an い-adjective 遅い but I couldn't find such an い-adjective on the two online dictionaries I've used.
Yes, I found the form 遅い. This doesn't change the fact though that I'm dealing with the reading おくい here. And Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary
doesn't show me an alternative reading for 遅い (おそい) towards おくい either.

I'm not careless. If I was careless, I wouldn't spend loads of time on this forum to ask about stuff my textbook doesn't manage to explain to me, yet it confronts me with this stuff all the time. I could just go over it and hope that somewhen down the road, it will come up in the accompanying grammar. I feel like I'm spending 3/4 of my time on asking for clarification, and figuring out what and how to ask requires careful planning and action as well. Before I ask, I usually double check on my grammar chapters and vocabulary in my textbook wether the answer is there or not, I also try to remember wether the problem resembles anything I've asked so far and if so I'm searching the thread for the respective Q&A.
But I can't pull my answers out of thin air -.- There is no regularity and no entry in the dictionary known to me explaining why there is おくく (with 遅 as the kanji) standing in this text, and therefore I can't know...

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