Have to

[Rei Yahya]

I am familiar with a few different ways to see have to/must.

夕食を食べなければならない／なりません。
夕食を食べてはいけない／いけません。
夕食を食べてはだめです。

One could also suggest 食べる方がいい as a lighter sort of that, 'ought to'.

All of these seem to be pretty big mouthfuls (especially ~nakereba narimasen). Is this simply the way it is, or is there a quicker way of getting this across, perhaps even a more colloquial way? よろしくお願いします。

 

[Mike Cash]

Remember elision?

～なきゃ

 

[Rei Yahya]

Remember elision?

～なきゃ

I have never seen this before, but it makes perfect sense! There's a lot of stuff that we do in English that is also done in Japanese, and when I realize that, it gets less intimidating. Would it then be ７時までに夕食を食べなきゃ？ Is naranai/narimasen necessary?

 

[Mike Cash]

It can be left off.

 

[Toritoribe]

I am familiar with a few different ways to see have to/must.

夕食を食べなければならない／なりません。
夕食を食べてはいけない／いけません。
夕食を食べてはだめです。

One could also suggest 食べる方がいい as a lighter sort of that, 'ought to'.

All of these seem to be pretty big mouthfuls (especially ~nakereba narimasen). Is this simply the way it is, or is there a quicker way of getting this across, perhaps even a more colloquial way? よろしくお願いします。

As you might know, the last two lines mean mustn't; "You mustn't eat dinner".;-)

The other colloquial ways to say "must" are ～なくちゃ or ～ないと.

７時までに晩御飯食べなくちゃ。 （＝ 食べなくてはならない/いけない/だめだ）
７時までに晩御飯食べないと。（＝ 食べないといけない/だめだ）

 

[Rei Yahya]

Ahh, I had forgotten that those meant mustn't, thank you. These are what I have, to my understanding. Are they correct?

Have to/must:
~ nakereba narimasen / nakereba naranai / nakya
~ nakute wa ikemasen / nakute wa ikenai
~ nakute wa dame
~ nakucha
~ naito

Must not:
~ te wa ikemasen / te wa ikenai
~ te wa dame

 

[synasha]

I am not sure that "nakute wa ikemasen / ikenai" and "nakute wa dame" would be used often. This is creating a double negative to get your point across, for example, you probably wouldn't say: "tabenakutemo wa ikemasen", effectively "to not eat is forbidden" if you are trying to tell someone that they "must eat". Once you get used to saying the "nakerebanarimasen" it rolls off the tounge pretty quickly. But if you want to shorten, the "naito" replacement for "nakerebanarimasen" seems a good option.

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

To sum up so far:

Do
-----
V~て(form) + ください = please do V (can use other words such as おねがいします as well)
V~て(form) + もいいです = doing V is good/allowed
V~た(form) + ほうがいいです = to do V would be good/better
V~た(form) + らいいです = recommend doing V
V~ない(form-i) + かればなりません = you must do V
+ くちゃ
+ いと

Don't Do (pretty much the negative versions of the above)
--------
V~ない(form) +でください = please do not do V (can use other words such as おねがいします as well)
V~ない(form-i) +くてもいいです = not doing V is good/allowed
V~なかった(form) +ほうがいいです = to not do V would be good/better
V~なかった(form) +らいいです = recommend not doing V
V~て(form) +はいけません = doing V is forbidden

 

[Toritoribe]

must
なければならない/いけない/だめだ
なけりゃならない/いけない/だめだ
なきゃならない/いけない/だめだ
なくてはならない/いけない/だめだ
なくちゃならない/いけない/だめだ
ないといけない/だめだ
ねばならない
べきだ
ざるをえない
ないわけにはいかない
なきゃ
なくちゃ
ないと

must not
てはならない/いけない/だめだ
べきではない
(and the polite forms for all the above structures)

I should add the explanation regarding the differences among these forms?

"tabenakutemo wa ikemasen"

I'm not going to nitpick, but "tabenakutemo wa ikemasen" doesn't make sense. Maybe you want to say "tabenakute wa ikemasen"? If so, it's perfectly fine and actually used.
"Tabenakereba naranai" is also a double negative.

 

[Rei Yahya]

I should add the explanation regarding the differences among these forms?

If you had the incredible patience to do so, I could save your explanation forever and know every possible way to get across 'must' or 'must not'.

 

[Toritoribe]

Generally, it's said that ならない is for things to have to do regardless of the agent's will, whereas いけない is for things the agent can choose not to do, but has to do. The difference is subtle, so they are often interchangeable, though.

ねばならない is a classical form of なければならない, therefore it's often used in written language.

"The dictionary form of a verb + べきだ" is also written language, and means "morally/generally have to do". This is not used for the speaker's personal things.

ざるをえない and ないわけにはいかない express "not want to do but have to do for some reason". The latter sounds more colloquial.

(ねば and ざる are from classical auxiliary verb, so when -suru verbs are connected to these structures, the form should be せねば/せざる and not しねば/しざる.)

 

[Rei Yahya]

ありがとうございます！

So, bekida after Base 3 verbs gives a sense of 'people have to in general'. Humans have to drink water. 人間は水を飲むべきだ。 Is this correct?

Also, after what base of verb would you put ざるをえない？ I'm guessing naiwake ni wa ikanai just comes from Base 1.

Also, are there any nuances of meaning between nakya, nakucha, and naito? よろしくお願いします。

 

[Glenn]

人間は水を飲むべきだ sounds like humans have to drink water for some moral reason to me. I'm curious to see what Toritoribe has to say about it.

ざるをえない attaches to the negative stem, e.g., 手術中に聞こえてきたら覚悟を決めざるを得ないセリフ or 雇用調整を行わざるを得ない事業主の方へ (from Google).

 

[Rei Yahya]

グレンさん、助けをどうもありがとう。でも、まだ一つの質問があります。教えてくれませんか？ Does zaru o enai ALWAYS require 'o enai' on the end, and likewise does naiwake ni wa ikanai always require 'ni wa ikanai'? よろしく。

 

[Glenn]

Yes to both. ざる on its own is just a negative ending, like ない. If you don't put にはいかない after ないわけ, it would be interpreted as either ないわけだ or ないわけ? depending on inflection. Also, there are わけがない and わけじゃない in addition, with different meanings.

 

[Toritoribe]

なくちゃ and なきゃ are originally the contraction of なくては and なければ/なけりゃ, respectively, but なきゃ tends to be used for both cases nowadays.

ないと is often used to give an advice.

べきだ has a nuance of "to do so is generally/morally correct". 死にたくなかったら、水を飲むべきだ "If you don't want to die, you should drink water" sounds natural.

 

[Rei Yahya]

Ok, thank you for all the information so far, I'll try to hammer out my understanding now...

1) ～なければならない、～なけりゃならない、～なきゃな らない (THE NUANCE OF NARANAI)
'Have to' regardless of the doer's will. The ~naranai is what gives it this effect. After all the various other ways to say 'have to' and their implications, though, I'm a little confused as for what situation this would be used in. Perhaps a teacher telling her students, 'You have to fill out your names here', お名前をここで書き込まなければなりません.

2) ~なければいけない、～なけりゃいけない、～なきゃいけない (THE NUANCE OF IKENAI)
Something the doer can choose not to do, but has to do. "Tanaka, you have to come to the party [or we'll miss you]!" 田中くん、パーティーに来なきゃいけない！

3) ～なければだめだ、～なけりゃだめだ、～なきゃだめだ (THE NUANCE OF DAME)
The doer MUST do something. 'To win the game, you must throw the ball through the hoop'. Is this correct?

4) ～なくてはならない、～なくてはいけない、～なくては だめだ （「～なくては」の代わりに「～なくちゃ」を 使えます）
I'm not sure about this one. What's the nuance implication of this construction?

5) ～ないといけない、～ないとだめだ
An advice-giving have to. 'If you want to get over your relationship, dear friend, you have to let him go'. That sort of have to? And I'm guessing the nuances of ikenai (you can choose not to do, but have to) and dame (you must) are still in play?

6) ～ねばならない
A contraction of ~nakereba naranai that is classical, so this 'have to' is only found written.

7) ～べきだ
A have to that is generally/morally correct. 'If you don't want to be hungry, you have to eat'.

8) ～ざるを得ない、～ないわけにはいかない
The doer doesn't want to, but has to for some reason. 'If you want to save your friends, you have to go down this dangerous mine shaft!' (Okay, getting a little uncreative with examples). ~naiwake ni wa ikanai is more colloquial.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Teachers usually don't use the honorific お名前 for their students.
なければならない is often used when the law prohibits it, just like 日本では車は道の左側を走らなければならない "Cars must drive on the left side of the road in Japan". Your example sounds like a personal thing, so I would use 名前をここに書き込まなければ/なくてはいけません.

2)
The usage of 来なきゃいけない is correct, but 田中くん、君はパーティーに来なきゃいけない（よ）might sound more natural.

3)
だめ sounds colloquial.
名前をここに書き込まなきゃだめだよ/パーティーに来なきゃだめだよ

1)~4)
As I wrote, since the difference between ならない and いけない is subtle, 名前をここに書き込まなければならない and 君はパーティーに来なきゃならない are not inccorrect.

5)
名前をここに書き込まないといけないよ/だめだよ。
パーティーに来ないといけないよ/だめだよ。
道の左側を走らないといけないよ/だめだよ。

All giving a suggestion/advice.

6)
It's not a contraction. ねば is a classical form of なければ.

7) 8)
Correct.

 

[Rei Yahya]

Thank you very much for all the help! One thing I'm still unclear on...what construction would I use for a simple 'have to' statement, such as 'I have to sleep [because it's late]!' or 'I have to bake the cake'. 寝なきゃ、ケーキを焼かなくていけない？

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, those are correct except the typo ケーキを焼かなくてはいけない.;-)
もう寝なきゃ is more natural for "I have to sleep because it's late".