Hachiro was banned?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Eupedia seems to me to be more trouble than its worth.

I have slowly been losing faith in the management of Jref for about half a year now, Duo's comments notwithstanding.

I know that Hachiro was at times "playing" with the Mods/Admin, and maybe he shouldn't have so much.

I agree that the content of Hachiro's offending thread is better suited for Eupedia, and I was one of the advocates for splitting Eupedia from Jref. But in a more fundamental sense, I am opposed to the original Eupedia conception. That'S a whole nother conversation, so I won't elaborate on that point, but a related point is valid, I think:

No one should be made to join another forum just because their topic is not Japan-related. If I start a new thread about my car, for example, I doubt that I would be asked to join an auto forum. Why is Europe different? Because one of the admins has his own pet Europe forum. No other reason, IMO.

 

[JimmySeal]

No one should be made to join another forum just because their topic is not Japan-related. If I start a new thread about my car, for example, I doubt that I would be asked to join an auto forum. Why is Europe different? Because one of the admins has his own pet Europe forum. No other reason, IMO.

Exactly. The reasons given for Hachiro's banishment and the handling of his thread should have nothing to with, "it should have been put in the Europe forum."

 

[RockLee]

Well, all the **** he brought with him (insults, rule breaking..you name it) contributed to the fact he got banned. It's not because of this one incident, not at all. I think we can discuss this till eternity, but it won't do any good. I'll close this thread later on, so you've been warned

 

[ArmandV]

On occasion I felt Hachiro was pushing it at times, but never did I feel he crossed the line. He seemed to make an effort to get along with Maciamo (I mentioned this before) lately. Earlier, it seemed that they almost came to written blows several times.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Well, all the **** he brought with him (insults, rule breaking..you name it) contributed to the fact he got banned. It's not because of this one incident, not at all. I think we can discuss this till eternity, but it won't do any good. I'll close this thread later on, so you've been warned

If this was answered earlier or elsewhere, forgive me, but what rules did he break? Why was it so abrupt?

FYI, I have upset about bannings for a while now. They used to seem like a big thing, and now they seem much more commonplace. Not the best way to build and maintain a community, if you ask me.

You may not think that talking about this does any good, but it does for me. I want to think that I want to stay at Jref; the only means toward this end are to rebuild confidence in the management team.

 

[Glenn]

He was told to take it to chit-chat......then ended up getting banned when he took it to chit-chat.

Actually, he didn't take it to Chit-Chat. He originally posted it in the Community forum. I moved it to Chit-Chat before I deleted it.

His banning had nothing to do with posting a thread in the wrong forum so much as it did with being insulting and disrespectful after that thread was deleted by me, an American who has no strong feelings for Europe. Please drop the whole "European mods and admin are too sensitive and can't stand anything bad being said about Europe so they just delete threads," because they didn't -- I did.

Nurizeko has an inferiority complex from living in a country that most people don't even know is a country, and hates the US because that's the cool thing to do

I think that's going a bit too far and assuming too much.

Also, Hachiro asked to be removed from the Eupedia member list, he wasn't banned from there.

 

[Mike Cash]

OK, well this is starting to make a little more sense if insulting a continent, national group, race whatever with "coward!?" (or anything comparably denigrating) in the title of a thread is sufficiently inciting for a ban in itself. Which actually no doubt it would be if the subject matter was Japanese or Chinese....☝

The word "coward" came from an editorial written by a German journalist. Hachiro's thread was intended to invite discussion of the points raised by the journalist....and it did. I can't recall Hachiro having personally directed the "coward" appellation at anyone himself. I would go back and refresh my memory, but the arbitrary deletion of the thread renders that impossible.

I never got a chance to see the third thread. But if he was in a pique over the second thread having been shut down after he was told to post the topic in Chit-Chat if he wished to discuss it....I hardly think we can blame him for his ire.

 

[Kinsao]

I don't know what to think.
Hachiro was what you might call a 'useful' member of the community. Sure, he had previously made posts criticising the admin/modding. Fair enough for the mods to take exception to this; they could have warned him about these posts and told him to pipe down a bit. However, he also made contributions which were interesting and valuable, from which I got the impression that his presence on the board was not just that of some spammer or shight-stirrer. I agree with Jimmy Seal that some of his 'anti-mod' posts might have been a bit near the line, in which case it is the responsibility of the mods to warn him that these posts are inappropriate!

The 'you should have posted it in Eupedia' is an invalid argument for the deletion of the thread about Europe, and I think many people agree on this. Was this the original reason given to him for the deletion? Because if so, that's not on. The reason for the deletion should have been something like: It's not appropriate to post racist or inciteful material. And to go on to say that the mods agreed that his post was too harshly anti-Europe to be acceptable, that it seemed designed to provoke, and to raise his argument in a different wording - with a warning that if he would post more in that 'extreme' vein that a ban would be forthcoming.

It is true that McTojo, who IMO posted much worse and more racist/prejudiced things, was left more leeway and debated about more before deciding to ban him. It just so happens that his extreme behaviour amused and/or intrigued some people. A harmless lunatic, if you like. It seems like that was tolerated when it shouldn't have been, and Hachiro wasn't tolerated... because his posts didn't have any 'entertainment value'? -_-

Also, Mike has made a valid point that the wording wasn't actually Hachiro's own but came from the article.

On occasion I felt Hachiro was pushing it at times, but never did I feel he crossed the line. He seemed to make an effort to get along with Maciamo (I mentioned this before) lately.

I think this, too.

I think mainly I feel that if a behaviour/post is not appropriate, or rude, or pushes the mark, the offending person should be clearly told it at the time. I don't support rudeness or racism or flame posts. But I don't like the sensation that is building up recently that you can say things on the forum (particularly 'anti-management' things) that aren't openly chastized at the time, but which kind of... build up against you with the mods, making them feel bad towards you, but without clear warning. I'm not saying their bad feeling isn't justified, but it festers in the background and then erupts into a ban when the person goes near the line, even when that is for a different issue.

Hey, Jimmy Seal was insulting to Nurizeko and Scotland both in the same sentence, but no one's coming down like a ton of bricks on him...! (... yet...)
(Sorry to put you on the spot, Jimmy! :joyful: )

And, there are a number of members who have expressed their dissatisfaction with the 'management' in no uncertain terms, and they have not been banned.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Why is it that Kinsao has left the management team? Her voice is desperately needed at the top levels of Jref!!

 

[Duo]

Why is it that Kinsao has left the management team? Her voice is desperately needed at the top levels of Jref!!

This is a query best suited for a PM i'd have to say.

We all know that Hachiro crossed the line and that his actions are not proper forum behavior. He wasn't trying to argue objectively in his thread, he was simply venting out and trying to irritate his fellow european members. Why would you do that in a forum where people come to discuss with each other in proper ways. Is that the way to behave in real life with real people? Does one go to a certain group of friends and try to instigate them by offending them with malice instead of arguing a point with objectivity? I don't see why forum behavior should be any different; I said this 100 times already.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

This is a query best suited for a PM i'd have to say.

Actually, it was a rhetorical question.

 

[Maciamo]

As for Hachiro, he was banned by Maciamo on Eupedia, so he couldn't post it there. It may not have belonged here, but you can't use the argument that he should have posted it there!

Thanks for spreading lies about me. That seems to your, Elizabeth's and Mike Cash's speciality. I never banned or removed Hachiro from Eupedia. He has neverregistered or posted on Eupedia.

 

[Maciamo]

Hachiro, living over a decade, maybe two, in Japan, was very much a part of this community.

Hachiro only joined the forum a few months ago. Not really an old timer... Anyway he wasn't banned because he posted about Europe, but because he defied several moderators' authority (I wasn't involved), abused them by PM, and continued to repost the same thread 3 times after it was deleted. What is more Hachiro had already been warned several times for flaming, baiting and provocation against Team Members.

Just because nurizeko says that Hachiro was flame-baiting and spamming, that doesn't make it true.

We discussed it with the Team Members, and we thought that it was.

Nurizeko has an inferiority complex from living in a country that most people don't even know is a country

Now that sounds like an uncalled for personal attack. And do ou sincerely believe that "most people" don't know that the United Kingdom is a country ?

There has been no mention so far of Hachiro having been warned, so it only stands to reason that he wasn't.

Many warnings are made by PM.

 

[Elizabeth]

The 'you should have posted it in Eupedia' is an invalid argument for the deletion of the thread about Europe, and I think many people agree on this. Was this the original reason given to him for the deletion? Because if so, that's not on. The reason for the deletion should have been something like: It's not appropriate to post racist or inciteful material. And to go on to say that the mods agreed that his post was too harshly anti-Europe to be acceptable, that it seemed designed to provoke, and to raise his argument in a different wording - with a warning that if he would post more in that 'extreme' vein that a ban would be forthcoming.

That is the precisely the point that is most difficult for me to accept as well in all of this retrospective analysis and attempted reasoning. For one thing, there were mods that either participated in that original thread, considerered participating at the time or ignored it. If it was simply inappropriate because it was Europe-related -- positive, negative, neutral -- (although there are apparently no explicit guidelines regarding this) clearly it should have been locked and or deleted immediately. Hachiro should then have PM'd management or started a thread asking for further explanation.

If it was because it was so inciteful and negative, why was there administration posting and it was allowed to grow to 2 pages before it was eventually moved and deleted (which there have been probably hundreds of more heated, provocative and "racist" threads in the past that no action was ever taken against) ?

I understand the mods using their individual judgment on close calls and the necessity of making quick, on the spot decisions when they encounter certain situations and another another team member isn 't available. At the same time, while the article thread itself was not the precipitating factor in the ban, the inconsistent explanations given us and Hachiro as to why it was deleted are troubling.

So, as I think I understand it....even now there isn't an absolute prohibition on anything dealing with Europe at JREF ; it is a greyer matter factoring in past behavior of the thread-starter, tone of argumentation (although he didn't present his own views very extensively as I recall), how you react to instigated reactions etc....which will determine the locking and/or deletion. :?

 

[Elizabeth]

This is a query best suited for a PM i'd have to say.
We all know that Hachiro crossed the line and that his actions are not proper forum behavior. He wasn't trying to argue objectively in his thread, he was simply venting out and trying to irritate his fellow european members. Why would you do that in a forum where people come to discuss with each other in proper ways. Is that the way to behave in real life with real people? Does one go to a certain group of friends and try to instigate them by offending them with malice instead of arguing a point with objectivity? I don't see why forum behavior should be any different; I said this 100 times already.

So if one of us starts a thread ranting about a negative experience they have had in Japan, asking whether Japanese people are racist, unhelpful, stupid, uncreative etc etc perhaps with an accompanying professional article cited for good measure, that isn't an attempt to annoy and exasperate his/her "fellow" Japanese members ? Or is that simply an opportunity for cultural education and greater elucidation or understanding on the issue ?

These are examples that are carried out every week here. I've yet to see one of them deleted.

 

[MajideSaiaku]

Just because nurizeko says that Hachiro was flame-baiting and spamming, that doesn't make it true. Nurizeko has an inferiority complex from living in a country that most people don't even know is a country, and hates the US because that's the cool thing to do, so it's natural that he would respond to criticism of Europe in much the same way as George W Bush would respond to criticism of himself. This is the same guy (nurizeko) who called Harry Truman a genocidal war criminal about 20 times in a single thread.

It appears someone seems to dislike me.
If I hated America I would have joined Eupedia and left Jref a long time ago, I'll thankyou to please keep your insults and character assasination attempts to yourself please, and then people wonder why they get banned?. ☝

For your infomation Hachiro WAS flame-baiting, I wish the thread hadnt been deleted so you lot could see it instead of stewing in disbelief.
Secondly, just because you wrongly assume I got him banned is no reason to start insulting and attacking me, I posted in the thread asking Hachiro to let it go, I PM'ed him asking him to let it go because I didnt want him to get in trouble, he didnt listen, and got HIMSELF banned.

Lastly any problems you have with me personally you be a man and bring them to ME, instead of stewing on it and making character assasination attempts when the chance provides itself.
If your problem is purely with my conduct on the forums, again, the Moderators are mods for a reason, you bring it to them.

I do not know if Hachiro was banned by warning or not...no matter though.
As I said before, common sense should prevail. This forum is just like real public life. In real life do you need a warning that shooting someone or provoking somone is wrong and that you may get penalized? Hachiro perhaps didn't even give the time to be warned because he acted quickly and without thinking in his instigatin against moderators and other members on this forum..the consequence of that is that he had to be banned. I resent the SS comment. I think most of the moderators here are very kind, diplomatic, and polite and are taking time from their life to provide a service for the well-being of this community. I'd say that they are getting the end of a short stick here by being "crucified" for the completely justifiable banning of an instigator.
There is a reason that the people who are moderators here are such. They have proven themselves with the community and the admins. So please let's try to show a little more appreciation, frankly i'm getting a bit irrated of moderators here being crucified when they have done anything but deserve such antagonism.

This basically covers it, along with my statement on your attack on me above it.

In short: Save any insulting commentary for threads and behaviour you actually witnessed.

I agree though perhaps in hindsight the thread shoulda just been locked down, for others to study...I apologise for witnessing the thread and making my own conclusions.


I know just as well as any of you our troubles with moderators and admins in the past, but we cant allow that to taint the future of this board and make every ban and every act of moderation some kind of event up for grabs to be questioned and verbally punished at every oppurtunity.

Like Mike, I wish the threads had been locked down long enough so people could see for themselves, I was lucky enough to witness the bulk of Hachiro's increasingly hostility, I saw him get himself banned, and so I stood up in this thread and told what I saw, and I got a nice big Paragraph of insults for my effort.

This is in no way healthy for the forum, and I thought I came back to a place that had settled down.

I think aside from making the rules clearer, and perhaps Mods locking down rather then instantly deleting being up for debate, we gotta accept that a forum cannot be held hostage to the whims and grudges of the membership, yes Hachiro was a good contributor, and I liked him as much as anyone, yes, he pushed too far this time and got a punishment, thats just how it went.

SVF was the result of, if anything, inaction by moderation staff and look what it ultimately caused, it brought out bad attitudes in some, got others banned, others left.

I'm all for a fairer Jref without any of the troubles that we had durring the split, but first and formost Jref mods need to be able to do their job without being hung drawn and quatered by an angry mob everytime they make a decision they dont entirely like.

Oh and one last time, just to make things clear...I DIDNT GET HACHIRO BANNED, his behaviour caught the attention of a mod and he got himself removed.

Sorry for any confusion leading to other ideas.

What is more Hachiro had already been warned several times for flaming, baiting and provocation against Team Members.

Not to mention I even asked him in his thread and by PM NOT to push back too much, if anything I wanted Hachiro not to get in trouble, he thanked me for my concern but it seems ultimately ignored my advice.


Sorry for the long rantish thread, I just dont wanna be demonized and blame for something I didnt do.

 

[kirei_na_me]

Mikawa, I think that was Kinsao's choice. Maybe you should PM her about why. I considered it a great loss when she left the team too.

Anyway, I've been staying out of this because I'm so sick and tired of these type discussions. They're getting way too commonplace these days. It seems like we've had struggle after struggle for over a year now. It's so disheartening...

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Mikawa, I think that was Kinsao's choice. Maybe you should PM her about why. I considered it a great loss when she left the team too.

Sorry for the confusion, but it really was a rhetorical question. I should be more clear in the future. My point was meant to be that I agreed with her previous post, and I wished all Mods/Admin shared the same views as Kinsao. That's all.

Anyway, I've been staying out of this because I'm so sick and tired of these type discussions. They're getting way too commonplace these days. It seems like we've had struggle after struggle for over a year now. It's so disheartening...

Well, one reaps what one sows.

 

[Duo]

Sorry for the confusion, but it really was a rhetorical question

Wouldn't it be safer to say that it was a provocative question directed at the board of moderators here ?

It seems that every explanation that the mods here have given on Hachiro's banning is being rejected/questioned/micro analyzed by you all here. So let's just conclude this...hachiro went openly and defiantly against several moderators in this board...defying their authority on the forum, defying the mutual respect that members share here...for these actions he was banned. Plain and simple.

 

[Duo]

So if one of us starts a thread ranting about a negative experience they have had in Japan, asking whether Japanese people are racist, unhelpful, stupid, uncreative etc etc perhaps with an accompanying professional article cited for good measure, that isn't an attempt to annoy and exasperate his/her "fellow" Japanese members ? Or is that simply an opportunity for cultural education and greater elucidation or understanding on the issue ?
These are examples that are carried out every week here. I've yet to see one of them deleted.

I would say that his post was very similar to the countless "japan hater" threads we see daily and that we delete daily.

 

[RockLee]

To me it seems Kinsao has more to say about moderating than when she actually was a moderator. I think she got sick of what we all are getting sick of, for example this thread.

Also, even if you made a 1000 useful posts, it doesn't mean you can break the rules at your own pleasing!

Earlier I said I would close this thread, and that's what I'm going to do now !

*THREAD CLOSED*