GENKI I、第3課、第100ページ

diligentcircle · 8 Aug 2017

This might be a bit advanced, but あるんです is more appropriate since this の/ん has an explanatory tone and therefore this sentence has a nuance of an explanation of the reason you ride bike everyday, similar to あるからです.

That wouldn't be correct. I ride my bike every day because it's my primary transportation, not because a bike trail is there. The mention of a bike trail is just some trivia.

でしょう can work as presumption here. I would say スターウォーズはおもしろいです.

Ah, OK.

This sentence means you eat either lunch or dinner everyday, not both of them. Is this what you want to say?

What I would like to say is that it's maybe one, maybe the other, maybe both. But I don't know how to do that in Japanese (or even how to look it up, since English doesn't even have such a construct unless you get into the realm of the legal term "and/or"), so I just opted for the either/or syntax since it's usually just one or the other anyway. What would you suggest using?

The question is asking about the location you study/learn. Do you mean "in your office"? Then it's 会社でも or しごとば（仕事場）でも.

The full answer is in the break room while on lunch, but I don't know how to say either of those (I looked "break" up once but forgot), so I decided to keep it simpler. I never considered しごと being unacceptable for the place where you work, thanks for pointing that out. And that's an easy new word to learn, too (considering I already know ばしょ).

新しいアニメを見たいときしかテレビを見ません。

Oh, so my intuition was right the first time. Gotta love hypercorrections. Thanks.

You can use 二時間くらい for approximately for two hour.

Yeah, I should practice that, too, considering I keep getting ごろ and ぐらい mixed up in my head.

しごとは好きなのでいいです

Ah, OK.

I actually have a question here. Is there a general way to know when you use the noun form of a keiyoudoushi and when to use the adjective form, or does it vary case-by-case?

それで is semantically not appropriate. It should be でも.

Ah, OK, but wouldn't でも contrast this sentence with the statement about liking my job? I wanted to mention it sort of on the same level. If I were to put it into English, I would have probably written it as: "I usually work on the weekends. However, I like my job, so that's perfectly fine; and I do go to play board games with my friends on the second Saturday of every month." Does using でも there have a similar meaning to that?

The second Saturday of every month is 毎月第二土曜日.

Thanks. I'm still struggling to fully understand the difference between 第～ and ～目, and I never considered the possibility that you could count a day of the week like that.

でも、夜は

Ah, OK. So use よる, not 晩. I take it 晩 should generally only be used as a counter and for compound words it's a part of? Or are there some cases where 晩 is preferable over 夜 as a single word?

What do you mean by 作るビデオゲーム? A video game you are making? (The reason I interpreted the meaning so is that a google search result suggests that you might be the developer of the game (Hexoshi is developed by Julie Merchant GamniX).

Yep, that's right (though the blog post you saw misspelled my last name). How should have I said that correctly?

Toritoribe · 8 Aug 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
That wouldn't be correct. I ride my bike every day because it's my primary transportation, not because a bike trail is there. The mention of a bike trail is just some trivia.

That's exactly why I used あるんです instead of あるからです. The explanatory の/ん just suggests the relation of the two sentences, and it's not so "strong" such like "because". It's naturally connects those two sentences.

JuliMaruchan said:
What I would like to say is that it's maybe one, maybe the other, maybe both. But I don't know how to do that in Japanese (or even how to look it up, since English doesn't even have such a construct unless you get into the realm of the legal term "and/or"), so I just opted for the either/or syntax since it's usually just one or the other anyway.

でも、ひるご飯や晩ご飯は毎日食べます。
However, I wouldn't say this since it's too common. If you don't eat either of them, you eat nothing as a result.

JuliMaruchan said:
The full answer is in the break room while on lunch, but I don't know how to say either of those (I looked "break" up once but forgot), so I decided to keep it simpler. I never considered しごと being unacceptable for the place where you work, thanks for pointing that out. And that's an easy new word to learn, too (considering I already know ばしょ).

Incidentally, your original one 仕事でも勉強します means you study (for your work) while working. The meaning is quite different from what you intended to say.

JuliMaruchan said:
Yeah, I should practice that, too, considering I keep getting ごろ and ぐらい mixed up in my head.

You can use くらい for both a length of time and time of day, but ころ can't be used for a length of time.
e.g.
〇二時ごろ（に）起きます。(に is optional.)
〇二時くらいに起きます。(に is necessary.)
〇二時間くらい乗ります。
×二時間ごろ乗ります。

JuliMaruchan said:
I actually have a question here. Is there a general way to know when you use the noun form of a keiyoudoushi and when to use the adjective form, or does it vary case-by-case?

It totally depends on the part of speech that follows it. For instance, you need to use the attributive form 好きな in しごとは好きなので since the nominalizer の works as a noun, and it must be 好きだから since から is a conjunction.

JuliMaruchan said:
Ah, OK, but wouldn't でも contrast this sentence with the statement about liking my job? I wanted to mention it sort of on the same level. If I were to put it into English, I would have probably written it as: "I usually work on the weekends. However, I like my job, so that's perfectly fine; and I do go to play board games with my friends on the second Saturday of every month." Does using でも there have a similar meaning to that?

でも just shows the contrast that you usually work on the weekend, but as for the second Saturday of every month, you go to play board games. It has nothing to do with whether you like your job or not.

JuliMaruchan said:
I'm still struggling to fully understand the difference between 第～ and ～目

Probably there are threads about the difference of them in this forum. I'll search it later.

JuliMaruchan said:
I take it 晩 should generally only be used as a counter and for compound words it's a part of? Or are there some cases where 晩 is preferable over 夜 as a single word?

夜 is more common in most cases, except the cases you mentioned.

JuliMaruchan said:
How should have I said that correctly?

I would say 今作っているテレビゲーム (ビデオゲーム is understandable, but テレビゲーム is more common in Japanese.)

diligentcircle · 8 Aug 2017

The explanatory の/ん just suggests the relation of the two sentences, and it's not so "strong" such like "because".

Ah, OK, thanks.

It totally depends on the part of speech that follows it. For instance, you need to use the attributive form 好きな since the nominalizer の works as a noun, and it must be 好きだから since から is a conjunction.

OK, thanks.

でも just shows the contrast that you usually work on the weekend, but as for the second Saturday of every month, you go to play board games. It has nothing to do with whether you like your job or not.

OK, so is this just opposite of what English tends to do with words like these, or is there some more complex rule for what connects to what?

Just to get a more solid example, what would happen to the following if translated into Japanese?

"Mike loves to ride cars, but since he does not currently have a car, he instead rides a horse. However, his horse got sick one day, so he needed to take his horse to the vet. However, the vet was too far away to walk to, so he needed to get a car. However, the car shop was also too far, so he needed to get a taxi. However, once he realized that he could just call the vet and ask him to come over, that was what he did."

A very extreme example, of course, but I'd just like to get at least a general sense of how these types of sentences connect to each other in Japanese.

I would say 今作っているテレビゲーム (ビデオゲーム is understandable, but テレビゲーム is more common in Japanese.)

Thanks.

Majestic · 8 Aug 2017

マイクは.....
でも
しかしながら
ところが、
とすると
etc...

diligentcircle · 8 Aug 2017

What would happen to the order of the sentences, though? Or would that all stay the same while retaining the same meaning?

What I'm having trouble with is how to determine when でも connects to the immediately preceding sentence and when it connects to something before that. In English it's always what's immediately preceding the clause in the same hierarchical level, I guess I would say.

So to recap, Toritoribe-san explained that this would be correct for what I was intending:

たいていしごとに行きます。でも、しごとは好きのでいいです。でも、毎月第に土曜日他の町で友達とボードゲームをします。

In English, I would have to use a higher-level separation for the last part to achieve the intended meaning, e.g.:

"I usually work on the weekends, but that's fine since I like my job; but I do go to play games with my friends on the second Saturday of every month."
"I usually work on the weekends, but that's fine since I like my job. However, I do go to play games with my friends on the second Saturday of every month."

So what I don't feel certain about is, how do I distinguish this sort of thing in Japanese? Is there some rule regarding this, or is it just left open to interpretation in a linguistic sense?

Toritoribe · 9 Aug 2017

The point is that this is an answer to the question 週末はどこにいきますか。. If that's しごとは好きです。でも毎月第二土曜日は他の町で友達とボードゲームをします。 in a composition or something, でも shows the contrast between your liking job and going to play board games. Indeed, 大抵仕事に行きますが、仕事は好きなのでかまいません。でも毎月第二土曜日は他の町で友達とボードゲームをします。 is more appropriate also in order to avoid using でも twice, though.

JuliMaruchan said:
I'm still struggling to fully understand the difference between 第～ and ～目

The following thread might be somewhat helpful to understand.
Ordinal number forms in Japanese? | Japan Forum

Mike Cash · 9 Aug 2017

第 is for naming things, using numbers in the name. The name may be part of a sequential series, but not necessarily so. Ship and boat names for example, often have names of the pattern 第XX OOO丸 but the numbers are usually chosen just because they're considered auspicious. Numbers are skipped willy-nilly. Most everyday things are numbered in sequence

目 is an ordinal suffix. That means it is used to indicate the numerical order of an item in a series. To help make the difference clear, let's turn things around a bit.

Consider the following list.

Apple
Orange
Banana
Persimmon
Grapefruit
Watermelon

Banana is 上から二つ目 and 下から四つめ
Grapefruit is 上から五つ目 and 下から二つ目

We're only telling their location in a series by counting them off from a specified starting point; we're not naming them.

Now imagine it was a series of items named
第一XX
第二XX
第三XX
Etc.

....and that you moved them out of numerical order. Their assigned names wouldn't change. You could reference them either by their name, if you wanted, or you could reference them by describing their current shuffled location in the mixed-up series by using the ordinal suffix.

第三XX
第五XX
第六XX
第一XX
第二XX
第四XX

So
第六XX is 上から三つ目 and 下から四つ目
第一XX is 上から四つ目 and 下から三つ目

So as a naming convention, 第 is always an absolute reference. It may be sequential as well, but not necessarily so. Rearranging the named items doesn't change the names.

And as a ordering convention, 目 is always a relative reference. It will always count things off in regular 1-2-3 counting fashion, with reference to a specified (or mutually understood) starting place, without regard to the names of the items being counted.

Does that clear it up a little?

diligentcircle · 10 Aug 2017

Does that clear it up a little?

Yeah, it does. Thanks.

So, how about these?

第4課の一ページ目は第84ページです。
今回は３回目です。
「第四市民」という人の本当の名前は「Edward Snowden」です。 (His alias was "Citizenfour".)
「アタリ第２６００」というゲームハードはアメリカに有名です。
一つ目のテレビゲームはスペースウォーでした。

Mike Cash · 10 Aug 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
第4課の一ページ目は第84ページです

"The first page of Chapter 4 is page 84"

Chapter 4 would still be Chapter 4 even if you took the book apart and shuffled the chapters; it is the name of the chapter. "page 84" is also an absolute reference; it is printed on the page. "first page Chapter 4" is a relative reference: it specifies the starting point for counting as (the beginning of) Chapter 4.

JuliMaruchan said:
今回は３回目です

Counting the number of times something has happened in total, starting from the first time.

JuliMaruchan said:
「第四市民」という人

Naming, as is shown by the と言う人

JuliMaruchan said:
「アタリ第２６００」というゲームハード

Naming, as above.

JuliMaruchan said:
一つ目のテレビゲーム

Simple counting, not naming.

Toritoribe · 10 Aug 2017

Yeah, 第84ページ is barely acceptable, but just 84ページ is more common.

JuliMaruchan said:
ゲームハード

ゲーム機 or just ハード.

JuliMaruchan said:
アメリカに有名です。

アメリカで有名です.

JuliMaruchan said:
一つ目のテレビゲームはスペースウォーでした。

Do you mean "the first video game you played" by 一つ目のテレビゲーム? If so, it's （一番）最初に遊んだテレビゲーム. 一つ目の or just 最初の is too ambiguous since it can mean "the first video game developed in the world" for instance.

diligentcircle · 10 Aug 2017

Do you mean "the first video game you played" by 一つ目のテレビゲーム?

No, the first video game that was ever made:

Spacewar - Wikipedia

This is highly contested; to be more precise, Spacewar was the first graphical video game which ran on a digital computer. There were of course other games which preceded Spacewar which do not fit all of these criteria, like Tennis for Two (the first graphical video game, which ran on an analog computer), various Tic-Tac-Toe implementations such as OXO and Bertie the Brain, and Nimrod. It's all about where you draw the line. All this context is a little too much for me to explain in Japanese, though, especially with all the technical terms involved.

アメリカで有名です.

Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure about that one. So use で with だ/です.

Toritoribe · 11 Aug 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
All this context is a little too much for me to explain in Japanese

Then, you should use other example sentences instead of those complicated ones.

JuliMaruchan said:
So use で with だ/です.

The reason だ/です is used at the end of the sentence is because 有名 is a na-adjective. It has nothing to do with whether the location marker で is used or not.

Mike Cash · 11 Aug 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
All this context is a little too much for me to explain in Japanese,

One of the most important and useful skills to develop when learning a new language is the skill of re-phrasing what you want to say into what you are able to say.

Majestic · 11 Aug 2017

Anyway, I think its safe to say you understood the concept, its just that some of the examples you chose seem to be slightly problematic.

Many times western names, particularly brand names, are not translated, but are instead just rendered into katakana. So the "Atari 2600" hardware is rendered just as アタリ2600.
As above, if you want to talk about the first video game ever invented, you would probably use something other than 一つ目のテレビゲーム : maybe 一番最初 as Toritoribe-san menioned. Or, 世界初の, both of which emphasize "first ever". 一つ目 isn't grammatically incorrect, I think it just inadequately conveys the sense of "very first in the world", and instead makes me think there are several video games lined up on a table, and you are discussing them in order.

So again, I think you have understood the basic concept, but some of the examples you picked were a bit unfortunate.

diligentcircle · 11 Aug 2017

Sorry if that example wasn't so great. I was having a hard time coming up with examples, so I ended up doing a little reaching.

One of the most important and useful skills to develop when learning a new language is the skill of re-phrasing what you want to say into what you are able to say.

With what I currently know, I would probably append a と思う to it if I wanted to explicitly say that the case is open and that that's just where I personally draw the line.

Toritoribe · 11 Aug 2017

と思います also can be used to soften the nuance even when it's certain.

mdchachi · 11 Aug 2017

It's definitely good to reach to express what you don't know how to express. That's a good way to learn.

世界初 and 世界一 are good, solid, useful vocabulary to know. Interestingly you stumbled onto another useful vocabulary word. 本当の名前 → 本名.

JuliMaruchan said:
With what I currently know, I would probably append a と思う to it if I wanted to explicitly say that the case is open and that that's just where I personally draw the line.

In this situation you could say something like
いろいろな意見がありますが、私にとって．．．と思います。
個人的 is also a useful word. Not sure the exact equivalent to "drawing a line."

diligentcircle · 12 Aug 2017

Thanks.

Anyway, I'm going to do this again, but with slightly modified questions, on my lunch break today. Slightly modified questions are to make sure I'm not just refining specific examples. I'll be posting that probably tomorrow.

diligentcircle · 13 Aug 2017

Alright, I actually ended up doing some before my shift, some on my breaks, and some before going to bed. But this is it:

テレビゲームをしますか。

ええ、時々します。たいてい私が作っているゲームですが、他のいろいろなゲームも好きです。例えば、「Freeciv」というゲームも好きです。

ブログを読みますか。

ええ、いろいろなブログを時々読みます。

本屋に行きますか。

いいえ、ぜんぜん行きません。この町は本屋はないのです。でも、時々としょかんに行きます。

アニメを見ますか。

ええ、毎週見ます。今「ドラゴンボールスーパー」と「ボルト」です。他のアニメもたくさん好きです。

おさけを飲みますか。

いいえ、おさけはぜんぜん飲みません。でも、水をよく飲みます。「La Croix」という飲み物も飲みます。

ドイツの音楽を聞きますか。

ええ、時々聞きます。「Rammstein」というバンドの音楽は好きです。「Engel」というソング、すごいと思います。

肉を食べますか。

ええ、よく食べます。一番好きな肉は牛肉です。同じ時やさいも食べます。

何時にしごとに行きますか。

たいてい2時か1時に始まります。行く時間は半時間ので1時か12時に行きます。

どこで買い物しますか。

しごとばのウォルマートで買い物します。すごく安いのです。

いつ本を読みますか。

本はあまり読みません。でも、去年おもしろい本を読みました。あの時、ねる前読みました。今はその時勉強します。

しょうぎをしますか。

いいえ、ぜんぜんしません。チェスもしません。でも、他のいろいろなボードゲームをよくします。例えば、「Battlestar Galactica」というゲームをします。

休みはどこに行きますか。

五大こに行きます。かぞくと会うためなのです。今年できませんでしたが、来年します。

あさ、何を読みますか。

水を飲みます。でも、レモンの水が飲むのをすぐ始めたいです。

今晩、何をしますか。

今晩はうちに帰って、ちょっと勉強して、ねます。

毎日、何時ごろうちに帰りますか。

たいてい午後11時半ぐらいか、10時半ぐらいに帰ります。今日は午前12時ぐらいでした。

For the last one, I used ぐらい since I have more confidence in that, but I would also like to know, would this be acceptable grammar?

たいてい午後11時半ごろか、10時半ごろ（か）（に）帰ります。今日は午前12時ぐらいでした。

Toritoribe · 13 Aug 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
今「ドラゴンボールスーパー」と「ボルト」です。

今見ているのは「ドラゴンボールスーパー」と「ボルト」です。

JuliMaruchan said:
この町は本屋はないのです。

この町には本屋はないんです。 is more natural.

JuliMaruchan said:
他のアニメもたくさん好きです。

If you want to say you like very much, it's 他のアニメもとても好きです。.

JuliMaruchan said:
「Rammstein」というバンドの音楽は好きです。「Engel」というソング、すごいと思います。

「Rammstein」というバンドの音楽が好きです。, since は works as the contrastive marker there.
「Engel」という歌は特にすごいと思います。

JuliMaruchan said:
同じ時やさいも食べます。

やさいも一緒に食べます。

JuliMaruchan said:
たいてい2時か1時に始まります。行く時間は半時間ので1時か12時に行きます。

仕事はたいてい午後1時か2時に始まります。通勤時間は30分なので12時か1時に家を出ます。

JuliMaruchan said:
しごとばのウォルマートで買い物します。すごく安いのです。

仕事場/会社の近くのウォルマートで買い物します。すごく安いんです。
仕事場のウォルマート works well if you work at Wal-Mart or Wal-Mart is in the same building as your working place.

JuliMaruchan said:
あの時、ねる前読みました。今はその時勉強します。

その時は、寝る前に読んでいました。今はその時間（帯）は勉強しています。

JuliMaruchan said:
かぞくと会うためなのです。今年できませんでしたが、来年します。

家族と会うためです。
ため shows the reason, so there is no need to add the explanatory ん.
今年は行けませんでしたが、来年は行きます。

JuliMaruchan said:
レモンの水が飲むのをすぐ始めたいです。

The particle after 水 is wrong. レモンの水 is the object of 飲む.

JuliMaruchan said:
たいてい午後11時半ぐらいか、10時半ぐらいに帰ります。今日は午前12時ぐらいでした。

If you mean between 10:30 pm and 11:30 pm, it's たいてい午後10時半から11時半ぐらいに帰ります。.
今日は午前0時ぐらいでした。 is more common.

JuliMaruchan said:
For the last one, I used ぐらい since I have more confidence in that, but I would also like to know, would this be acceptable grammar?

Yes, you can also use 頃.

The only grammatical mistakes are just two; が in 水が飲むのをすぐ始めたいです and "noun (= 半時間) + ので".

diligentcircle · 13 Aug 2017

If you want to say you like very much, it's 他のアニメもとても好きです。.

That's not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say was that I like a lot of other cartoons. I take it たくさん was a bad choice for this?

How would いろいろ have sounded?

The particle after 水 is wrong. レモンの水 is the object of 飲む.

Ah, OK. I was trying something a bit over-ambitious there. How about this?

みらいレモンの水を飲みたいです。

If you mean between 10:30 pm and 11:30 pm, it's たいてい午後10時半から11時半ぐらいに帰ります。.

No, either/or is what I meant.

今日は午前0時ぐらいでした。 is more common.

Huh, that's interesting (and makes more sense if you think about it). Thanks.

Is that just for midnight?

やさいも一緒に食べます。

Oh! I got the impression that that was just for people. Thanks!

仕事はたいてい午後1時か2時に始まります。通勤時間は30分なので12時か1時に家を出ます。

Wow, that's a lot of corrections (though I know you said the only grammar mistake was in the noun + ので thing). Thanks.

家族と会うためです。
ため shows the reason, so there is no need to add the explanatory ん.

Ah, OK. Thanks.

今年は行けませんでしたが、来年は行きます。

Alright, so using する to replace a specific verb is a bad idea, I take it. Thanks.

mdchachi · 13 Aug 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
That's not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say was that I like a lot of other cartoons. I take it たくさん was a bad choice for this?.

I understood what you meant and was a bit surprised that toritoribe took it that way.
You can say アニメをたくさん見る for example. Perhaps better would be ほかの好きなアニメがたくさんある。 Let's see what toritoribe has to say.

AmerikaJin5 · 15 Aug 2017

Also,
他の好きなアニメがいろいろあります。
or
いろいろなアニメが好きです。

Toritoribe · 16 Aug 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
That's not what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say was that I like a lot of other cartoons. I take it たくさん was a bad choice for this?

How would いろいろ have sounded?

Notice that たくさん is an adverb in that position, i.e., it modifies 好きです, not アニメ. たくさん can work fine with 見る or ある since these verbs can take adverbs that describes the quantity of countable objects, whereas the adverbs for 好きです only express the degree how much you like. That's why たくさん好きです is ungrammatical.
いろいろ works well, but the nuance is closer to "various", so it's not always "many".
I would say 他にも好きなアニメがたくさんあります or more simply 他のアニメも好きです if it's not so many.

JuliMaruchan said:
How about this?

みらいレモンの水を飲みたいです。

If you use 飲みたい, the particle が is correct. Notice that 水 is not the object of the -tai form verb 始めたい in your initial composition.
What do you mean by みらいレモン, by the way?

JuliMaruchan said:
Is that just for midnight?

午後0時 is not wrong, but not co commonly used.

diligentcircle · 16 Aug 2017

What do you mean by みらいレモン, by the way?

Oh, I didn't mean for those to go together. みらい (未来) was supposed to be a time indicator. Though when I looked up the kanji of that, I got the impression that this is not that great of a word for this situation (it looks like 未来 is more or less like the opposite of 昔, and the time interval I was thinking of was only the span of a couple days or so).

If you use 飲みたい, the particle が is correct. Notice that 水 is not the object of the -tai form verb 始めたい in your initial composition.

So, are you saying that the たい form converts を to が? That's my best attempt at understanding what you're saying here, sorry if it's inaccurate. I don't understand at all what you're saying about my first attempt, or rather, what connection it has to my second attempt.

Notice that たくさん is an adverb in that position, i.e., it modifies 好きです, not アニメ. たくさん can work fine with 見る or ある since these verbs can take adverbs that describes the quantity of countable objects, whereas the adverbs for 好きです only express the degree how much you like. That's why たくさん好きです is ungrammatical.

Is it because 好き is an adjective, or a property specific to 好き in particular?

GENKI I、第3課、第100ページ

Sempai

松葉解禁

Sempai

先輩

Sempai

松葉解禁

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Sempai

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

松葉解禁

Sempai

松葉解禁

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

先輩

Sempai

松葉解禁

Moderator

Sempai

Sempai

松葉解禁

Sempai

Moderator

Sempai

松葉解禁

Sempai

Similar threads