FDR plans sneak attack before Pearl Harbor

[caster51]

I haven't been really been following this thread very much, but I think that Caster'S point is that if the U.S. government gave material and moral support to those volunteer efforts, then the U.S.'s official stance of neutrality at the time was what one would call "tatemae" in Japanese, but the "honne" was active hostility towards Japan.

In other words, America's moral high ground is due only to a technicallity.

OK thanks...

whether it was voluntary or not is not related with Japan.
indeed , they were organized and suppoted by US government
as for Japan, it was WAR without Declaration of war that US did Preemptive strike

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

...the fact that American's under the threat of losing their citizenship, volunteered to fight against the Japanese and Germans prior to the "official" declaration of war against all three Axis countries.

indeed , they were organized and suppoted by US government

If what Caster says is true (and I don't think it's a stretch, really. Certainly within the realm of possibility), then how real do you think that threat of losing their citizenship really was?

 

[KirinMan]

whether it was voluntary or not is not related with Japan.
indeed , they were organized and suppoted by US government
as for Japan, it was WAR without Declaration of war that US did Preemptive strike

It was firstly not organized by the US, the AVG group that is, it was organized by Claire Chenault from the request of Madam Chiang Kai -shek.

It is DIRECTLY related towards Japan, why you ask, because Japan was the aggressor in China. If Japan was not, there would have been absolutely no reason for the development and training of a Chinese Air Force at the time.

For you to conveniently forget or overlook this fact makes me believe that you are blind to the facts surrounding Japan's participation in WWII.

Caster as much as I hate to say this, you are the first person that I am putting on my "ignore" list here. From now on I will not be reading nor responding to any of your posts. I wish you well.

 

[caster51]

because Japan was the aggressor in China

.
NOt at all.
in tokyo trial , it was used "advance' for evidence
japan settled in china because of Boxer Rebellion
they welcomed japan
it was like Today's US force in Japan.
Boxer Rebellion - Wikipedia
then Marco Polo Bridge Incident happed...
Japan and KMT fell in the trap of the communist party.

Caster as much as I hate to say this, you are the first person that I am putting on my "ignore" list here. From now on I will not be reading nor responding to any of your posts. I wish you well

it is my Pleasure.

 

[KirinMan]

then how real do you think that threat of losing their citizenship really was?

Personally I am not sure, however it took plenty of guts to do what they did. THe AVG force's record in China was outstanding, and they were one of the major reasons that Japan was unable to advance into India.

I believe the government conveniently overlooked their participation. But that doesnt imply either that the US was directly involved in their recruitment, training or anything else like that.

In other words, America's moral high ground is due only to a technicallity.

The US whether or not they were involved in these small but important bits of history during WWII always had the high ground, along with it's allies.

To me Caster seems to forget who started the war in the first place, and comes across as if Japan is guiltless of any and all wrongdoing, and I'm sorry but that to me is just just being stubborn or showing plain ignorance, I dont know which.

 

[caster51]

then Marco Polo Bridge Incident happed...
Japan and KMT fell in the trap of the communist party.

Japan never started the war in the first place in china
bacause At that time, it had only minimum military power to protect settlement in china.
why did Marco Polo incident happen?
I guess....

窶ｰﾃ､窶禄经ﾃｦﾃｮ窶愿ｺ窶怒窶｢ﾃｼ窶認谈过ﾂ。窶伉ｼ们说ﾂ，ﾅ徒对窶｢s窶ｹNﾂ，窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ皇军ﾂ侵窶板ｪ窶板ｹ窶吮??ﾂ・ 窶伉。窶ｰﾃ､说∶窶｢sﾂ！窶砺窶猫你们ﾂ皇军ﾂ侵窶板ｪ窶佚･窶敖ｼﾋ慊｢窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉，窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉人窶督ｯﾂ就窶｢s窶拿 团结窶ｹN窶藩?#23545;窶｢t你们ﾂ，窶吮??ﾂ坂??..ﾂ就夺ﾅｽﾃｦ窶｢s窶板ｹﾂ青ｭ权ﾂ！ﾂ」ﾂ【ﾂ静?#35265;窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅｽﾃ絶?ｰﾃｯﾂ・ }ﾂ人ﾅｽmﾂ債ｲﾂ債ｲ窶禿伉更ﾅｽOﾂ、ﾃｼK窶彡ﾅｽﾃｵ窶冕ﾂ、细窶昶?版停?愬津ｵ窶懌┐窶廬谈话1964.7.10ﾂ・ z
Mao said.....
Translation: "I have talked to my Japanese friends. They said, 'We are sorry, the Imperial Japanese army invaded China.' I told them, 'No! If your Imperial army did not occupy half of China, the people of China would not have united against you, and we will not be in power today.'

Nanjing Incident in 1927
Nanjing Incident - Wikipedia

US army also counterattaked...

 

[Chidoriashi]

Caster what makes you believe that Japan never started the war? That is totally illogical. Even if it was the Communists and not the Japanese who staged the Marco Polo incendent, it doesn't erase the fact that the Japanese were in Chinese territory and unwanted! The Second Sino-Japanese war is refered to in Chinese as "the War of Resistance Against the Japanese ﾂ『ﾂ抗窶愿ｺﾂ戰ﾃ?ﾂ･ﾂ』ﾂ。
This is straight from Wikipedia in regards to the Second Sino-Japanese war.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War
"The war was the result of a decades-long Japanese imperialist policy aiming to dominate China politically and militarily to secure its vast raw material reserves and other resources. "


Japan was the aggressor nation. It is a fact of history. And only revisionists who, in my opinion, just want to "save face" are trying (unsuccessfully) to say otherwise.


In regards to the video I say "so what"? Japan was waging a war of aggression in China. And even if an attack against Japan was planned Japan still struck first! This "preemptive attack" against Japan you keep talking about never happened!

 

[caster51]

"the War of Resistance Against the Japanese 『抗日戰爭』。

china can call it as they like.
it is not Japanese business.

And only revisionists who, in my opinion, just want to "save face" are trying (unsuccessfully) to say otherwise

it was called " Japanese advance" even in tokyo trial of just after WAR.
revisionist changed it first.

 

[Chidoriashi]

Ok fine "Japanese advance". it is still a form of aggression.


Yes the Chinese can call it what they like, and the fact that they call it that is a way of showing that Japanese were not welcome there.

I read the whole "Boxer Rebellion" i didn't see anything about Janpanse being welcomed in the article

Ok fine "Japanese advance". it is still a form of aggression.


Yes the Chinese can call it what they like, and the fact that they call it that is a way of showing that Japanese were not welcome there.


I read the whole "Boxer Rebellion" i didn't see anything about Janpanse being welcomed in the article

 

[caster51]

According to George Lynch, The War of the Civilizations
there are some discription that ...窶弖窶凖??版ｽﾂ湘ｩ窶堙個催帚?弖窶凖ηｽs窶督ｯ窶堙債、ﾂ「窶佚･窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ鞘?｡窶督ｯﾂ」窶堙?鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??愿ｺﾂ湘最?ﾃｸ窶堙ｰﾅ断窶堋ｰ窶堙??愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ坦窶堙嫁?'ﾅｽﾃ凪?堙戸?凪?堙ｰ窶｢\窶督ｾ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
Tianjin ppl ,they expressed gratitude to Japanese army
japanese military regulations was the severest in the world


btw it is very intersting to read
http://dspace.nitle.org/bitstream/10090/472/1/au_simon_2007_ba.pdf

 

[jmasterjermzx]

?? Things in history happend for a reason.
Thats the reason why the world is a better place today

According to George Lynch, The War of the Civilizations
there are some discription that ...窶弖窶凖??版ｽﾂ湘ｩ窶堙個催帚?弖窶凖ηｽs窶督ｯ窶堙債、ﾂ「窶佚･窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ鞘?｡窶督ｯﾂ」窶堙?鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??愿ｺﾂ湘最?ﾃｸ窶堙ｰﾅ断窶堋ｰ窶堙??愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ坦窶堙嫁?'ﾅｽﾃ凪?堙戸?凪?堙ｰ窶｢\窶督ｾ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
Tianjin ppl ,they expressed gratitude to Japanese army
japanese military regulations was the severest in the world
btw it is very intersting to read

Umm. Arent the Southern Koreans the severest in the world now?
I heard those ROK Marines dont play around nor take hostages

 

[Chidoriashi]

According to George Lynch, The War of the Civilizations
there are some discription that ...窶弖窶凖??版ｽﾂ湘ｩ窶堙個催帚?弖窶凖ηｽs窶督ｯ窶堙債、ﾂ「窶佚･窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ鞘?｡窶督ｯﾂ」窶堙?鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??愿ｺﾂ湘最?ﾃｸ窶堙ｰﾅ断窶堋ｰ窶堙??愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ坦窶堙嫁?'ﾅｽﾃ凪?堙戸?凪?堙ｰ窶｢\窶督ｾ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
Tianjin ppl ,they expressed gratitude to Japanese army
japanese military regulations was the severest in the world
btw it is very intersting to read
dspace.nitle.org/bitstream/10090/472/1/au_simon_2007_ba.

First.. I have no idea what you are trying to say by saying "serverest in the world"

I'm sure there were a FEW people that were happy but obviously things didn't work out and Japan became unwanted. Seriously Caster, according to wikipedia 17,530,000 Chinese civilians were killed between 1937-1945 as a result of the war with the Japanese. I don't think it was because the were all partying too hard for rejoice of the Japanese being there.

And what are you trying to say with the link you set? That person's thesis doesn't deny Japanese war crimes or responsibility. Are you trying to say Japanese behavior was excusable because of the circumstances and environment? What point are you trying to make with that article?

And you never answered my rebuttal about Japanese advance/aggression. How is it that the war was not a result of the Japanese pushing their way forcefully through China?

 

[caster51]

And what are you trying to say with the link you set? That person's thesis doesn't deny Japanese war crimes or responsibility. Are you trying to say Japanese behavior was excusable because of the circumstances and environment? What point are you trying to make with that article?

And you never answered my rebuttal about Japanese advance/aggression. How is it that the war was not a result of the Japanese pushing their way forcefully through China?

Japan never invaded china. it was an incident
if it is called aggression, china also invaded korea, Vietnam....
it is very simple

China should apologize to Japan.
Tungchow mutiny - Wikipedia

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Glad I am living in a free part of this world where I may think for myself instead off letting a government do the thinking for me.

Coming back to the thread, the American people didn't want to start a war until Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. President Roosevelt could have helped China, but he didn't, he could have helped W.Churchill in Europe but he didn't, and that was because the Americans were not willing to get involved.

And then Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. The Japanese admiral Yamamoto was the archtect of the Pearl Harbour raid.
Japanese spies were all over Asia as from far before World War Two.

But then, there have also been Japanese soldiers fighting side by side with the British and American soldiers in Normany, France against Germany.

Life has many surprises!

 

[KirinMan]

Japan never invaded china.

:smoke::smoke:

If you actually believe it was just an incident, then let me share with you the "real" reasons of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You may not believe this but it's the real truth.

First off let me tell you that the US never had any intentions to drop the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki it only happened just because of poor navagation, and a faulty bomb bay hatch.

Boths planes were on a test flight over the cities and by mistake the hatches popped open on both planes and the bombs dropped. There was even a world wide recall right after that for all B29 bombers to have their bombbays checked for malfunctions.

Instead of blaming the US for the atomic bombings you should be blaming Boeing for the faulty hatches. And that is the "real" reason for it, kind of hard to believe but, well the US government has been keeping it secret for all these years there isn't any "open" evidence but I have a friend who has a brother who has a friend that works in the Petagon archives and he "swears" there is documentation that proves this. He cant show us the document because that would be selling secrets or something like that. So you are just going to have to take my word for it.

Sorry the bombs were just an accident, no big deal ok. (Yeah right)

 

[Chidoriashi]

Obeika> Do you think he's actually gonna get it? haha.. Its nice to put things in perspective huh.

 

[EmperorHirohito]

I read Obeika's last post and its brilliant. I understood it totally. It is satire in one of its best forms!

 

[caster51]

First off let me tell you that the US never had any intentions to drop the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki it only happened just because of poor navagation, and a faulty bomb bay hatch.

they did twice...
at last ,you learnt what war is .

however
the war is such like that..
that is why you should consider today's war more rather than past
nobody knows it may be dropped in USA

 

[Chidoriashi]

Caster> Oxford English dictionary: invade:1). to enter a country, town, etc. using military force in order to take control of it. 2.) to enter a place in large numbers, especially in a way that causes damage or confusion.

GOO窶堙個坂?佛津ｪﾅｽﾂｫ窶弋窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ：ﾂ侵窶板ｪﾂ：ﾂ（窶督ｼﾂ）ﾆ湛ﾆ停?ｹ
窶堋?窶堙ｩﾂ坂?倪?堋ｪ窶伉ｼﾂ坂?倪?堙固ｽﾃ･ﾅ陳?ﾂ・窶氾娯?忱ﾂ・ﾂ青ｭﾅｽﾂ｡窶廬窶愿??板ｧ窶堙ｰﾂ侵窶堋ｷ窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙俄?｢ﾂ絶?氾坂?堙ｰﾂ行ﾅｽg窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙?。
ﾂ「ﾂ―ﾅｽﾃ陳」ﾂ「窶伉ｼﾂ坂?倪?堙娯?氾娯?忱窶堙ｰﾂ―窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ」

ﾂ侵窶愿ｼﾂ：窶督ｼﾂ）ﾆ湛ﾆ停?ｹ
窶堋ｨ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ窶愿ｼ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙?。窶ｹﾂｭﾋ?ｳ窶廬窶堙俄?堙坂?堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙?。
ﾂ「窶伉ｼﾂ坂?倪?堙可―窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ」ﾂ「窶伉ｯ窶堙個―窶堙ｰ窶塗窶堋ｮﾂ」

Key words: Enter, country, military force, take control
Sound familar?

This is from Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident
"The Mukden Incident of September 18, 1931, known in Japanese as the Manchurian Incident, occurred in southern Manchuria when a section of railroad, owned by Japan's South Manchuria Railway, near Mukden (today's Shenyang) was blown up by Japanese junior officers.[1]......The aim of Japanese junior officers in Manchuria was to provide a pretext that would justify Japanese military INVASION (wouldn't want you to miss that) and replace the Chinese government in the region with either a Japanese or a puppet one."

Even though the Chinese caused that massacre who was on their land, obviously UNWANTED by the majority, in the first place? Again tell me how Japan did not invade China?

Oh and once again what were you trying to say with that man's thesis? Please don't just post a 63 page thesis for people to read with stating how you want to use it to defend your case.

 

[caster51]

Again tell me how Japan did not invade China?

ﾅｽ窶凪?｢ﾃ?.......ﾅ遅ﾅｽ@窶氾坂?堙??堙坂?凖≫?凖ｨ窶堋ｵ窶慊ｾ窶堙遺?堋｢窶凖ｶ窶忸窶堙個湘ｯ窶板青（窶堋ｶ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙ｧ窶堙ｱﾂ：ﾂ「窶板絶?堙ｪ窶倪?ｺ窶堋ｮﾅｽ窶督」窶堙娯?ｹ`ﾂ）ﾂ。ﾂ坂?伉催崘?ﾃ披?堙個静ｩﾂ静ｭ窶｢zﾂ債絶?堙遺?堋ｫﾂ静ｭ窶侏?」
at that time, in china, the condition was civil War by KMT and CCP.
it means it was not ﾂ坂?伉催崘?ﾃ披?堙個静ｩﾂ静ｭ窶｢zﾂ債絶?堙遺?堋ｫﾂ静ｭ窶侏?」there was no Gorvenment that was recognized...
it was as same as 2004 in shanghai, japanese restaurants and embassy were attacked...
that was today's Marco Polo incident ?

 

[Chidoriashi]

ﾅｽ窶凪?｢ﾃ?.......ﾅ遅ﾅｽ@窶氾坂?堙??堙坂?凖≫?凖ｨ窶堋ｵ窶慊ｾ窶堙遺?堋｢窶凖ｶ窶忸窶堙個湘ｯ窶板青（窶堋ｶ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙ｧ窶堙ｱﾂ：ﾂ「窶板絶?堙ｪ窶倪?ｺ窶堋ｮﾅｽ窶督」窶堙娯?ｹ`ﾂ）ﾂ。ﾂ坂?伉催崘?ﾃ披?堙個静ｩﾂ静ｭ窶｢zﾂ債絶?堙遺?堋ｫﾂ静ｭ窶侏?」
at that time, in china, the condition was civil War by KMT and CCP.
it means it was not ﾂ坂?伉催崘?ﾃ披?堙個静ｩﾂ静ｭ窶｢zﾂ債絶?堙遺?堋ｫﾂ静ｭ窶侏?」there was no Gorvenment that was recognized...

Ok so it was a war with no declaration of war. Big deal. How does that make not make it an invasion? I don't see anything about a " declaration of war" being necessary to call something an "invasion". Offically war or not, Japan was invading, being aggressive, going after natural resources etc.. How does this "revelation" counter my point?

oh and in regards to it not being called a war.. an interesting point..

From wikipedia:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War
"The word incident (ﾅｽ窶凪?｢ﾃ? jihen) was used by Japan as neither country declared war on each other. Japan wanted to avoid intervention by other countries such as the United Kingdom and particularly the United States, which had been the biggest steel exporter to Japan.American President Roosevelt would have had to impose an embargo due to the Neutrality Acts had the fighting been named a war.
In Imperial Japanese propaganda however, the invasion of China became a "holy war" (seisen), the first step of the Hakko ichiu (eight corners of the world under one roof). In 1940, prime minister Konoe thus launched the League of Diet Members Believing the Objectives of the Holy War. When both sides formally declared war in December 1941, the name was replaced by Greater East Asia War (窶佚･窶愬塚?ｸﾂ静ｭ窶侏? Dait?a Sens?)."

 

[caster51]

How does that make not make it an invasion?

it was as same as 2004 in shanghai, japanese restaurants and embassy were attacked...

if the japanese returned to throw the stone...
they never learn?
that was today's Marco Polo incident ?

then the worst incident was happend by chinese
Tungchow mutiny - Wikipedia

chinese can not avoid this incident in the history

 

[Chidoriashi]

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Are you trying to say that calling what Japan did to China in the 1930's and 40's an invasion, is the same as calling the events in Shanghai in 2004 an invasion?

Excuse me, but how are the two even remotley comparable?

 

[caster51]

Are you trying to say that calling what Japan did to China in the 1930's and 40's an invasion, is the same as calling the events in Shanghai in 2004 an invasion?

off course.
the Japanese army was only in the Japanese settlement

 

[Chidoriashi]

Caster are you saying "off course"余談する、or "of course" もちろん??
I'm having a hard time trying to follow the points, and counterarguments you are trying to make. (But somehow I think that might be part of your strategy) As far as I can tell you have not sufficently argued anything.
What are you even trying to say with "the Japanese army was only in the Japanese settlement? Are you talking about those lands that Japan INVADED and took over?? "Japan.. invaded.." hmmm.. its hard to get away from that phrase huh? You still have not told me how what Japan did in China cannot be categorized as an invasion.