nakereba for e.g. minakereba - if you don't look
yes that's right, however minakattara is more common for "if you don't look". nakereba is a little more formal sounding, although is often used in "must", e.g. minakereba naranai - (you) must look
reba for e.g. mireba - if you look
again right, but mitara is more common.
It's not really a matter of commonality, these two verb forms have different nuances and are used in different ways. The -reba form (often contracted to -rya in casual speech) has more of a connotation of "if (and only if) you do X, then Y will naturally happen". For example, "Mireba wakaru" -- if you see it/look at it, you'll understand. Seeing it is a necessary condition to understanding, which will definitely take place if you see it. "Mitara wakaru", while a completely possible utterance, doesn't tie the two events together so tightly. This is why in some constructions (like the "-nakereba naranai" construction you mention, also expressions with 'sae', or "if only") don't work with the -tara form.
This close connection between the -reba clause and what follows is especially clear when the condition is negative. "Minakereba (minakya) wakaranai deshou" means something like, "Unless (you) see it, you probably won't understand." "Minakattara" just wouldn't really work like that here.
okaeri_man said:
takereba for e.g. mitakereba - (i've never heard this one before) umm, you've probably never heard it before because it's wrong
what are you trying to say? i think you're just trying to combine the above two forms, which you can't do.
You can't combine the two forms you mention (because they're just the affirmative and negative of the same form), but you can certainly combine the "-tai" (desire) form with the conditional (-(ke)reba) form, which is exactly what this is.
The "-tai" form can be made into a conditional the same way any "-i adjective" can, because structurally that's what it is.
takai (it's expensive) -> takakereba (if it's expensive)
ikitai ({I} want to go) -> ikitakereba (if [you/he/she] wants to go)
okaeri_man said:
naraba for e.g. shizuka naraba - if it is quiet, then...
hmm. again shizuka dattara is more common. shizuka naraba is ok (i think). often naraba is shortened to just nara, and i myself often use nara with "with" verbs. e.g. tabetai nara - if you want to eat it.
you could also use tabetakattara instead of tabetai nara.
The difference between "nara" and "naraba" is simply a matter of formality, I believe ("naraba" sounds very formal or written-style), but "tabetakattara" and "tabetai nara" don't really mean the same thing. The former can be used as a pure hypothetical "If you want to eat (it)..." where as the latter, which actually comes from "tabetai (no) nara", means "Well, if it's that you want to eat (it)." -- i.e. if you said it to a person who wasn't saying or giving obvious signs that they wanted to eat something, their reaction would probably be, "Why are you assuming that I want to eat it?"
okaeri_man said:
yes sasete is the te form of saseru. we're getting into some complicated and perhaps unnecessary grammar here, so let's stop while we're ahead (or before i make too many mistakes).
I wouldn't really consider any of the above "unnecessary", as they're all basically forms that you'll learn in the first few years of your average Japanese class. It's important to get all these verb forms down, because this is the kind of stuff that no dictionary is going to help you with.
goggles said:
And is sasete just the "te" form of saseru? I've heard stuff like "sasete morau" and "sasete itadakimasu". I guess I know what they mean and when to use but I refrain to use them because I don't enough information about these forms hence I feel like I have no control over my Japanese.
These are kind of interesting constructions. Structurally, they're not too difficult, I suppose. If you can parse something like, for example "Atarashii kuruma o katte moratta", then you can parse these combinations because they follow the same pattern of gerund (-te form) + verb of receiving.
Semantically, though, what's going on here is kind of interesting because in Japanese, expressions like these are used very often, certainly more so than in English.
To get across the basic meaning here in English, I guess you could say that it means something like "I'll take the liberty of doing (X)". It's a way of being polite/showing deference by implying that you recognize what you're doing might impose upon them. As such, something like "Go-renraku sasete itadakimasu" really is describing the same action as simply "go-renraku shimasu", but the former suggests that you feel as if you're receiving a favor from the other person just by being "allowed" to contact him/her, and thus sounds more deferential.
(Edited for clarity and better examples, and to fix some nasty formatting. Hmm, that's weird... if you try to respond multiple times to the same thread it combines your posts into one automatically.)
