Does anyone here think Japanese Men Treat their women like Crap?

Hi Firesong:
he responded by saying that his mother, at 60 years old and with 2 kids, had just decided she wanted to retire from her FT job and let his dad keep working

The thing is, his mother will be in a rubbishy low paid job, because she's a woman, and his father no doubt will be in a professional, pscychologically rewarding job with a high salary, because he's a man. So you can't compare the two situations. Women aren't stupid. They're not going to do dog-work in a supermarket unless they absolutely have to. Most would be happy to give up a few luxuries. If women had the opportunity to work in real jobs, though, they would enjoy them and continue working until they retire, just like they do in the U.K.

Also, most of my Japanese male friends can cook for themselves and clean up after themselves (they live alone), and I would be hard pressed to say the same thing of my Western male friends here... who ironically live off packet, fake ramen noodles...

Yes, I agree with that. Japanese men are very competent in the kitchen. THe culture loves food. And baths too. You'd be hard-pressed to find a cleaner bunch of people than the Japanese... Japanese men are pretty good at self-care.

Hi coffeesan.

I was really confused because when she first mentioned it I had assumed I would be buying everything as thats what men do in our culture.. UK/The west what ever.. When you go out to eat with a girl the man usually pays or very occasionally theyll split

Yes this aspect of Japanese culture is quite interesting, isn't it. Men and women go Dutch here on dates, and well on into their relationship, unless the woman is a hostess or what have you. Also, when I go to a restaurant with my husband, I pay, because I'm the one who tends to have the cash on me.

On the other hand, I have to agree with Mike Cash and Glenski on some of the other issues here. In Japan, kneeling really is the only proper way to serve tea or food to people seated on the floor at one of those low tables they use; that's just mannerly, and as I recall, men do it the same way when serving food (which does happen -- if there's no female present, lol). And kneeling is the only possible way, in kimono.

And I believe that most married Japanese women do run their households. My own wife does so here in the US, and I'm glad to let her, as I'm more likely to bounce checks or forget to pay bills. She seeks my consent on the big stuff, but usually gets her way, without bullying or nagging me.

As for modern car-seating custom, I'll defer to anyone with more experience. The last few decades, I've only been back to Japan for vacations and family visits. When I was last there two years ago, women still seemed to be sitting in the back-seat. But I was mainly paying attention to my wife's family, and they may not be typical. I also forgot to mention that in my own parents' generation, in my family, men usually sit in front, women in back.

Coffeesan: perhaps she felt obligated to pay because she invited you. Maybe she was hoping you would in turn offer to pay.

Hi plumblossom, nice to meet you but unfortunately I'm going to have to argue with some of the statements you've made.

plumblossom said:

Hi Firesong:
The thing is, his mother will be in a rubbishy low paid job, because she's a woman, and his father no doubt will be in a professional, pscychologically rewarding job with a high salary, because he's a man. So you can't compare the two situations. Women aren't stupid. They're not going to do dog-work in a supermarket unless they absolutely have to. Most would be happy to give up a few luxuries. If women had the opportunity to work in real jobs, though, they would enjoy them and continue working until they retire, just like they do in the U.K.

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Well, my friend's family is very well off, so I highly doubt that her FT job was "rubbishy" or "low paid," and it seems her situation is exactly like women in the UK- she enjoyed working at her job until she decided that she wanted to retire. I asked him a couple of suspicious questions about his mother's job and was satisfied that it was indeed a powerful, difficult job where she was an asset to the company. I might add that you are making some pretty strong statements about Japanese women that certainly don't apply to the whole country- how could it, with so many different situations and people?

The same applies to the UK- my mother (in Australia) certainly only worked because she had to, as an accountant, and didn't enjoy her job one bit, and retired as soon as she possibly could- and she was 60. By the way, she worked in jobs she liked instead of getting married until she fell pregnant at the unlikely age of 40, quit her job and got married, before being forced to find work again after a divorce. Sadly, this sounds like the way you are talking about Japan, but it happens all the time right here in these "liberated" countries.

Just recently, my cousin, with a degree and a masters, found herself pregnant, so the company she was working for hacked her emails to find a reason to fire her, rather than grant maternity leave. She's now relying on her parents- the father's job doesn't pay enough. The West is not a utopia for women.

I just wanted to interrupt the highly negative picture that's being painted in this thread, because it's not all terrible, surely.

Hi Roland; I would suggest that you don't sweat the small stuff. If I may ask you, does your wife work now? Do you have children? Has she worked since she married you? :sorry:

@Roland In Japan, kneeling really is the only proper way to serve tea or food to people seated on the floor at one of those low tables they use; that's just mannerly, and as I recall, men do it the same way when serving food

Yeah, but I covered that point many times. This was a westernized office setting. And besides, it is degrading to serve on your knees. Which is exactly why they get women to do it, of course!

@Firesong
"I might add that you are making some pretty strong statements about Japanese women that certainly don't apply to the whole country- how could it, with so many different situations and people? "

Well yeah.. we could all say that there are no differences between any cultures and blah blah, but what I do is look for *patterns* . What this means is that yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but the patterns are what interest me. Patterns that are backed up by hard data. Employment statistics, for example. The wage gap between men and women. Yes you will get the odd woman who does well in the workplace... but she may have to do degrading work like serve tea on her knees, and she may figure that serving her husband at home and giving up a few luxuries is the better deal overall.

plumblossom said:

Well yeah.. we could all say that there are no differences between any cultures and blah blah, but what I do is look for *patterns* . What this means is that yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but the patterns are what interest me. Patterns that are backed up by hard data. Employment statistics, for example. The wage gap between men and women. Yes you will get the odd woman who does well in the workplace... but she may have to do degrading work like serve tea on her knees, and she may figure that serving her husband at home and giving up a few luxuries is the better deal overall.

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Ok, I can agree with that ☝ (not getting into a discussion about whether or not the whole tea thing is degrading though). In that case, what's your opinion regarding foreign women in the Japanese workplace?

In that case, what's your opinion regarding foreign women in the Japanese workplace?

THey assign me my primary identity: female. Foreigner comes secondary to that. Obviously I can get away with certain things, and because of their cultural conditioning there are certain things that Japanese women put up with that I wouldn't. And I have a marketable skill i.e I'm in demand, so they have to be nice to me, but that's just pure luck of the draw. BUt sometimes Japanese men in the workplace really want to put me in my place, as a woman. It's exactly the same in the UK though...I mean the entire motivation behind sexual harassment in the workplace is to say: don't get too big for your boots; you're still a woman.

A friend of mine gets it worse than me. SHe was raised abroad, but her father is Japanese and her mother south-east Asian. She is fluent in Japanese, looks Japanese, and therefore she is *expected* to be Japanese, but she's about as Japanese as I am. I'd say she's even more forthright than me. We have a good laugh over the things she's supposed to deal with--as a Japanese woman-- that they let me get away with because my features are so obviously foreign. IF you've been born and raised in Japan the cultural conditioning allows you to deal with the s***t, but if you haven't been hazed into that subservient mindset and are *still* expected to do it... it's a mind f**k! Needless to say, life here is very hard for her.

As for tea, I wouldn't say serving on your knees *had* to be degrading-- you have to allow for cultural differences, of course-- but in *this* particular instance, it was. All you need to do is ask yourself *who* is carrying out the action. Is it someone with power? Would someone with power do that? If the answer is no (and in this case it is) then you have to analyze what is going on. It's intellectually arid to say "Yes, women serve tea on their knees. It's their culture. The end"

You're going to have a bitter, miserable existence here. But you'd probably have a bitter, miserable existence no matter where you were, so it may as well be here as somewhere else.

LOL Mike,
LIsten to the tone of your posts! You're misogyny and bitterness all the way.

I'd love to see you survive as a woman in Japan.

Or anywhere.

For half a day.

When I read your posts, I just cringe in embarrassment on your behalf.

For example, have you heard of shibari rope suspension? Well if you haven't it's a form of extreme sado-masochism originating in Japan. HOW do I know this, you might ask?
Good question.
A few months ago I went to a male doctor for advice on realigning my hips, which had shifted after childbirth. What did he do, but suspend me from the ceiling by ropes he tied across my legs and breasts in a humiliating position for an hour and did lots of unmentionable things to me. I'M not going to go to the authorities because 1) I probably won't be believed and 2) I'm f***ing humiliated and don't want anyone to find out.

So when I see some gaijin guy on here pontificating about things he cannot possibly know, or cannot possibly conceive of, "ignorance is bliss" are the words that spring to mind.

plumblossom,
If you've been married to a Japanese man and also have spent some years in Japan (neither fact you mentioned until just now, I might add), how is it that you write things like this?

But the more I live here the more I realize it is indeed a strictly patriarchal culture, moreso than I ever imagined.

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What is going on that the women are kneeling on the floor like that? They would never expect a man to kneel on the floor in an office setting, maybe only a waiter in a luxurious hotel.

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As for this statement:

I think I'm perhaps a bit more clued up on the role of wives in Japan and what our obligations are than the men on here.... seeing as I AM ONE.

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...please stop pooh-poohing the posters here just because they are men. Does the fact that we have Japanese wives mean so little to you? It sure seems so! That is just as sexist as you berate the Japanese culture for.

And.. educated Japanese men, such as my boss, and your average educated Japanese woman would be the first to point out that the culture is sexist and needs to change.

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Have you asked them? Openly? I doubt they will say that in an open conversation without alcohol flowing. Even if they do, what are they willing to do to effect that change? Is your boss even in a position to do so? If so, why doesn't he?

I made it very clear I was annoyed at the people who run the office, the men who expect her to do that, when it's outside of the cultural norm in a Western-style office. In other words: there was no need for it.

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So, that must include your boss, the guy who rolled his eyes when tea was served. You said he looked away because he was embarrassed. I wonder why that is? Is it because he doesn't accept the custom (as you presumed) or because he knows how strong your feminist personality is? Be honest here. Did you actually talk to him about the incident?

What I'm saying is that in THIS patriarchy the sexism manifests like THIS, whereas in the patriarchy I'M from it manifests differently....

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One might infer from that that you are saying yours is better or right, and Japan's is not. What are you saying, anyway?

As for tea, I wouldn't say serving on your knees *had* to be degrading-- you have to allow for cultural differences, of course-- but in *this* particular instance, it was.

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You're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. It's degrading (to you) or it isn't. Make up your mind.

We are being trolled.

Some posts make me feel as if there are two different countries called "Japan" on this planet...

What female workers are expected can vary depending on the work place and its "culture", so I feel that what was posted is either exaggerated or over-generalized here.
In my work place, there are two categories of female workers; for those doing secretarial jobs (so called 事務職), serving tea to visitors are one of their job descriptions, though kneeling is never encouraged as it is regarded as inappropriate because it is something from hostesses from bars and clubs.
Those doing career-oriented jobs （総合職) are not expected/supposed to serve tea unless there's no one else. (And same goes with male workers.)
When we have important guests, we arrange tea/coffee to be served by the specific service available within the company.
Just an example that things can be quite different depending on work places.

As for the story about the doctor - it sounds outrageous and you should not think it something common/normal. I've never heard of such a thing in my whole life, and cannot help wondering if he's really qualified in the first place.

Come now, Undrentide...as a Japanese woman certainly you must know that your male boss FORCES you to kneel FOR THE PURPOSE of humiliating you.

We are being trolled.

@undrentide
"As for the story about the doctor - it sounds outrageous and you should not think it something common/normal. I've never heard of such a thing in my whole life, and cannot help wondering if he's really qualified in the first place."

Thank you undrentide. No I don't think it's normal either. I mean, I don't think it's what your average doctor will do. BUt this doctor certainly did it to me. It was horrible, actually.

Do you want to know how men get away with doing things like this?

All you need to do is look at Mike Cash's response to me telling him that a doctor suspended me in the air for an hour and hurt me in many ways :

"We are being trolled"


As I said above, the reason I will not report the doctor is because the authorities will react in exactly the same way that Mike Cash did.

This is what is known as a rape culture.

What is a rape culture?

It is when women are silenced, because they know that if they speak about what has happened to them they will be ridiculed and disbelieved.

Some men, even if they are not rapists themselves, perpetuate rape culture each time they say a woman is lying when she talks about some sexual violation.

Thanks to some men, I will not be reporting this doctor. Thanks to the rape culture, the doctor has probably done the same thing today to yet another woman. I will never, ever forget the confidence in his eyes.

A culture of silencing women, of disbelieving them, is the way these men get away with these outrageous behaviours.

Really. If I went to the authorities they would laugh at me, or call me a troll or what have you.

All I can do is put it behind me.

I look down on the men here who talk about sexism in Japan because they have zero credibility. As we have seen, some of them perpetuate rape culture themselves. They thrive on it. They give examples of sexism to prove sexism doesn't exist. How can I take the "opinions" of the men on here seriously when they talk about how women are treated in Japan, or anywhere else?

When all else fails they bring out the final weapon: if you can't win the argument, question the credibility of the person making it. She is a troll. She is a woman, therefore she cannot be right. Therefore, she cannot know better than Gaijin men about what Japanese men do to women, in private.

And for the record, I don't think it's only Japanese men who do things like this. Of course it's not. And I've been saying that throughout this thread. I do think, though, that the process of reporting a sexual violation is more arduous in Japan than in the UK. And I've seen with my own eyes how impossible it is for a Japanese woman with a young child to leave a husband who beats her, because many Japanese women do not have economic independence.

A doctor engages in sadistic bondage practices in his office. None of the staff notice. None of the patients complain. They keep on coming back.

And we're to believe that.

No thanks.

Welcome to my ignore list.

A doctor engages in sadistic bondage practices in his office. None of the staff notice. None of the patients complain. They keep on coming back.

I'm glad I'm on your ignore list, because really, the last thing I want to have to do is prove anything to some imbecile on the internet.

It was a private practice. Doctors own their surgeries here, unlike in the UK. Yes, I'm certain his two male subordinates knew or at least had an inkling. He was very sneaky in many ways, looking back now.
I don'T think he does it to every female. He will need some women to vouch for him if another woman comes forward. I do think he chooses the women carefully. Probably young women mostly, Me, because I'm a foreigner, and women abroad are more vulnerable.
And the way he went about it.. it was so efficient. When you go for medical advice or treatment it's extremely hard to believe that something else is happening instead; that the doctor is not, in fact helping you, but is violating you. It is practically impossible to accept because you go into a sort of denial. Women are taught to respect medicine men. They are figures of authority. It was only when I e-mailed a friend of mine with some details about what had happened that it all began to sink in.

Also, please remember, that your average woman is not clued up on SM rope suspension bondage . As far as I knew, at first, it was some sort of legitimate cultural practice, before I went into some sort of denial (as I said, he chooses his victims well, I'm certain of it). He hurt me quite badly and endorphins do strange things to your mind. Memory is blurred. You feel quite spacey. I had bruises on my legs that only appeared about a week later. IT was only a week later when I began googling, trying to make sense of what had gone on that I typed "Japanese rope suspension" into google, and nearly fell off my seat with what I saw.

Also, if you knew anything about women who have been attacked in this way, raped or what have you, you would know that yes, sometimes they do go back. Some women meet up with their rapist at a later date, and sleep with him. DO you want to know why? In order to try to regain some control over a situation they had no control over. IN order to re-enact the situation with it playing out differently the second time. No human being likes to believe they were helpless. Sometimes it's easier to tell yourself you wanted it, then nothing bad happened, right?

plumblossom said:

As I said above, the reason I will not report the doctor is because the authorities will react in exactly the same way that Mike Cash did.

This is what is known as a rape culture.

What is a rape culture?

It is when women are silenced, because they know that if they speak about what has happened to them they will be ridiculed and disbelieved.

Men like Mike Cash, even if they are not rapists themselves, perpetuate rape culture each time they say a woman is lying when she talks about some sexual violation.

Thanks to men like Mike Cash, I will not be reporting this doctor. Thanks to the rape culture, the doctor has probably done the same thing today to yet another woman. I will never, ever forget the confidence in his eyes.

A culture of silencing women, of disbelieving them, is the way these men get away with these outrageous behaviours.

Really. If I went to the authorities they would laugh at me, or call me a troll or what have you.

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You really have to report the doctor to the police.
Sometimes I see news articles on the net stating that some doctors or therapists were arrested for sexually abusing their patients/customers.
You see, the victims did not keep silent, they reported to the "authorities".

I'm listing up some organization that should help you.
I'm not sure if you speak Japanese or not, so I'm listing some info in English as well.

Japan Legal Support Center (houterasu)
Japan Legal Support Center｜法テラã'¹
窶邸ﾆ弾ﾆ停?ｰﾆ湛窶佚･窶｢ﾂｪ (houterasu Oita)
法テラã'¹å¤§åˆ†ï½œæ³•ãƒ†ãƒ©ã'¹

窶佚･窶｢ﾂｪﾅ陳ｧﾅ遅窶怒窶｢窶敖 ﾂ青ｫ窶敕?催溪?敕ｭﾅ?Qﾅｽﾃ槌探ﾆ竹ﾂーﾆ暖110窶敕
(Oita Prefactural Police: Support for sexual abuse victims 110)
Tel: 097-534-9110
Monday-Friday: 9:30am - 5:30pm

Contact Information for Crime Victims Support
(translated by Google)
http://translate.google.co.jp/trans...ref.oita.jp/soshiki/13100/hanzaihigaisha.html
(Original in Japanese: http://www.pref.oita.jp/soshiki/13100/hanzaihigaisha.html)

If you do not speak Japanese, you should go to City Hall (ﾅｽs窶禿ｰﾂ焦? shiyakushoﾂ） and ask for translation help.

...And once again..I'm glad that I was American born and not in Japan..but as feisty and how my attitude is..if some of this is true (which most of it on here is probably blown outta proportion) I wouldn't take crap from anybody. You want something? Get it yourself. Oh, you need help with that? Sorry. You want me to cook? Sorry, then you should learn. Oh you want Coffee/Tea? There's a Starbucks down the street. lol..granted, i'm single right now..but even if i'm in a relationship/marriage I believe BOTH the husband and wife must compromise..or i'd tell Mr. Husband to get packin'

undrentide,

thank you for listing those organizations. Yes I speak fluent Japanese (well apart from struggling with some kanj).

I'm not sure what I will do, and whether or not I will report it. I hope I might, at some point.

FIrstly, it was incredibly difficult to admit what had happened even to myself . Finally I sent an e-mail to a friend and got a good response from her. I have told two friends in real life.

I don't want my husband to know, because to men, just as in law, this kind of sexual violation is a PROPERTY crime. So my husband will be angry that HIS wife or HIS property was touched by another man. THis is the basis of rape laws in almost every country. IT never has anything to do with the woman, only the men who are connected to her. I can predict already that HE will feel that somebody has done this to HIM. It will become all about HIS feelings, and I swear to GOd, I know I'll end up having to look after his emotions to the neglect my own; and how this has affected me will come secondary to his needs. I'm not in a position to deal with that right now.

Thread closed for the moment, might open it again in a couple of days.

The reason that I closed the thread was because we received some reported posts about certain posts in this thread. Even if you don't agree with someones post please try to respect each other. I find this an interesting thread, although I think some should cool down a little bit.

@plumblossom
Because you think that this is a rape culture (opinion), does not mean that Mike Cash and other men on the forum perpetuate it, and always think female are lying when they talk about some sexual violation.

What do you expect to hear from them? You are still very new to the forum and talk to people that you don't know openly about you are being sexually abused. Can you image a stranger walking toward you and your friends, greeting you and then tell you she has been sexually abused by a doctor... These kind of topics aren't topics that you just talk about with some strangers. If you have really been abused, please try to report it (Undrentide has posted some good links) instead of just talking about it on a forum like you are doing now.

How about some facts, about woman the percentage of working female, news articles, average female salaries, etc.

Davey said:

The reason that I closed the thread was because we received some reported posts about certain posts in this thread.

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Boo Hoo to them, This thread has become retarded with the quality of posts of late.


Not to mention that plumblossom is ignorant to Japanese culture.

From my experience of living in Japan and going to a Uni there (even a women's uni) I never want to work in Japan as a female - unless maybe as an English teacher. They originally had hired one woman ﾂ（Mika) to help us through the cultural transition and she was great we were all friends with her, but she was married to a Finnish guy and had an idea of how women are treated elsewhere and stopped taking crap from them. She very quickly was moved on and a submissive women who would dutifully make them tea and give them treats for no reason replaced Mika.

btw
what is "Kneeling to serve tea in an office "?^^
I cannot imagine it.
If a male has sufficient salary economically, a woman will be home bankers..

If she has a dream, no Japanese man would refuse it

how to serve tea in an office


in my experience, The woman who cannot serve tea well cannot do work well, either.