Do Japanese expect foreigners to conform to social norms?

[edogaijin]

This is meant as a serious question. I am sort of 窶ｹﾃｳ窶ｹC窶愿??堙溪?堙遺?堋｢ﾅ?Oﾂ人 and tend to be pretty outgoing. My friend has told me repeatedly that "you live in Japan now, you need to act Japanese". He's a hardcore anime otaku sort and wears clogs around, so I don't take his opinions on J-social norms that seriously.

But lately, I've been thinking... Is he right? Does Japan's notoriously harmony-seeking and conformist culture extend those expectations to foreign residents as well? If so, to what extent?

I'd be interested in hearing primarily from highly fluent, long-term foreign residents of Japan. No offense to the FOB crowd, never-been-to-Japan crowd or "I live here, but speak only N3" crowd (which includes myself...).

 

[Mike Cash]

There is nothing that says you can't be outgoing in Japanese society.

If you will excuse what may seem an irrelevant observation:

Although I haven't replied to them, I have read your posts since you joined and I see many references to what your long-term friends think. To put it bluntly, screw what they think. If they're schooling you on the rudeness of standing out in front on a convenience store and eating, for example, they're not long-term.... they just think they are. The real long-term guys won't give a damn what you do.

They've been here long enough and are immersed just enough that they still have their secret insecurities about it, have something to prove to themselves and others, and schooling the noob is just a self-serving means to an end.

If you haven't noticed it yet, and I can't imagine you haven't, there is a large tendency among foreigners to treat both life in Japan and Japanese language proficiency as some sort of contest. Every act and every interaction is an opportunity to prove to themselves or to others just how legit they are and where they stand in the pecking order.

Tell me, when you have been out to eat Japanese food with them.... they told you how "you're supposed to eat" something, didn't they? That's them trying to prove something. Anybody here long enough and comfortable enough with being here, no longer amazed with themselves for being here, will leave you alone and let you eat your damned meal any way you please, unless you specifically ask them something.

Same principle for the ones who want to tell you to not eat in front of a conbini. I stood out in front of one yesterday and ate a couple of onigiri and a corn dog. It wasn't a cultural experience; it was just a meal. I was on my motorcycle so where else was I supposed to eat other then standing up out front? And I have stood out front eating like that amidst large groups of Japanese people doing the exact same thing.

Quit worrying about what the insecure I-still-have-something-to-prove long-termers think. How long a person has been here doesn't mean jack squat. (And a lot of them are full of crap anyway).

Another irrelevant thought:

There is little more annoying than a gaijin who tries to "out-Japanese the Japanese". You can still be yourself and fit in and be accepted here.

 

[nahadef]

It's a really hard thing to say. Japanese don't really expect foreigners to act Japanese, but at the same time, it's really quite possible to make a faux pas in daily life. You can't know what they consider normal and what they consider 'Japanese' until you run into it.

My first year living with my wife had a number of fights over house rules I'd never heard before. For example, in Canada, we usually leave the washroom door open when not in use, and don't usually lock it when in use (since a closed door shows it's in use). My wife kept telling me to shut the door, but I'd leave it open a crack so that you could see it was empty. After a number of disputes where she kept telling me, 当たり前！ we got to the bottom of it, and I got her to understand that she couldn't expect me to know what she considered common sense in terms of home life.

Conversely, Japanese are relatively convinced that foreign people have never once touched chopsticks before (hence the infinite praise of technique), so they are quite understanding of a lack of etiquette in foreigners.

When I was in Okinawa , I had a lot of questions from locals about why Americans drink beer on the street all the time, as if it was an American custom. I had to explain it was the opposite: it's illegal, so there's a great thrill in doing it legally in Japan.

So, do Japanese expect foreigners to conform? It's a case by case thing. I think it's the same as the States. Some foreign behaviors get a lot of lenience, and others are expected to go into the melting pot.

 

[Glenski]

Socially speaking, I believe the Japanese don't really expect foreigners to even understand what to do, let alone conform. In business situations, though, it may depend.

They often expect you to stay late just like they do. How far this feeling goes will depend on the person.
They often expect you to join in the end of year and beginning of year parties. Excuses will be taken, but you might still have to pay even if you don't go.
At universities, don't expect to get any promotions depending on your duties. Most of the time it's publications all the way.
Spouses will help with family-related social things, such as returning a gift in kind for receiving one, donating to the neighborhood association fees, setting a table properly, etc.

 

[Dotanbatan]

Do Japanese expect foreigners to conform to social norms?

In answer to the question above … yes, most would expect you to try to conform, but most would also not be surprised if you didn't conform or made mistakes trying!

As long as you show some respect and are not deliberately rude, then most Japanese would not care much one way or the other.

As Mike said, there is nothing stopping any foreigner being outgoing … many Japanese are extrovert and even more are ear gratingly noisy - to put it mildly!

 

[kraystone]

I think generally they would expect foreigners to conform.

Like in some scenarios in my comic strips, I get "corrected" by my Japanese friends.
And sometimes they may say to you that "it's ok" but they really mean not ok. They were just too polite to say NG no good.

Of course, if you look foreigner enough you will get away with many things like eating on the streets or throwing the wrong garbage...
They frown but understand you are foreigner and don't understand... well, most of them...

 

[Mike Cash]

Of course, if you look foreigner enough you will get away with many things like eating on the streets or throwing the wrong garbage...

You mean the exact same things that lots of Japanese people do?

Lots of the old chestnuts that foreigners delight in instructing new arrivals about lost much of their validity years ago. But each generation of foreigners diligently keeps on passing to the next generation, like a set of heirloom silver service.

 

[caster55]

I think most Japanese doesn't expect it at all. Because, it is since the environment where it has grown up is different. so are life style, culture and tradition
it is difficult to become as expected because what is being shared is little.

how about the Japanese for that? it is because it can speak Japanese
it expect "Because it speak the same words, and it is understood, it should surely understand culture, the custom and etc"
I think the person doing human relations smoothly does not expect it of another person or others..
it is not it does not mean " trust"
it is natural that the environment that grew up each other is different . and the actions and thought are different

and I think the Japanese tend not to expect it strong.
it is surprised and respected because it was against expectation (like how to use chopsticks) .
as for bad one, at least "do not make a trouble "is an expectation

 

[tomoni]

I do not think that "conform" is the best word for how I think about this. I think that more important to Japanese people than any expectation of conforming is the effort to adapt to, and be at least willing to make a visible and sincere effort to understand how things are/may be done in Japan and act somewhat accordingly in various situations.

Cheers

 

[Glenski]

I agree with what tomoni wrote. One does not have to "become Japanese" to adapt to the culture and situation here, but it's a sign of respect to show that one tries to recognize the differences.

 

[Mike Cash]

Did we get drive-by posted by an (otherwise) actively participating member of the forum? I'm used to new posters asking a question and never acknowledging responses, but not this.

 

[Half-n-Half]

[...] or throwing the wrong garbage...

I've seen quite a few Japanese people try to sneakily throw trash on the ground from their pockets, or not take labels and caps off of bottles. They think they are sneaky, but I see them, oh yes... And plenty of girls here eat while walking.

 

[nahadef]

I've seen quite a few Japanese people try to sneakily throw trash on the ground from their pockets, or not take labels and caps off of bottles. They think they are sneaky, but I see them, oh yes... And plenty of girls here eat while walking.

I've seen Japanese throw their garbage on the little plot of grass out front my apartment! There is often an empty cup ramen cup or coffee can in front of my place. Last winter I saw a guy throw something there as I stepped out of my place, and as I came down and confirmed what I thought I saw, he was already hurrying off double time to avoid eye contact.

With the total lack of crime here, I'm baffled that anyone feels the utterly lazy need to litter. Every combini has a garbage can available. Since there are no thieving crackheads here like at home, my rage is reserved for litterers.

 

[Mike Cash]

There are no more than about 3-5 foreigners with access to the area in the photos below. There are several hundred Japanese people access to the area. To conform to this societal norm, I would have to start throwing my trash out there too. I haven't littered since I was a child and Minnie Pearl asked that I not. I have no intention of starting now.

That area, and several others nearby, have crews come out and pick up the mess several times a year.

How is it that of all the stereotyped and cliched images people around the world hold regarding the Japanese "World Class Litterbugs" is not among them? If Japan wants to assure itself of more Olympic medals, it should strongly lobby the IOC to have littering recognized as a sport. Japan would be a cinch for gold, silver, and bronze.

 

[Dotanbatan]

It was not those five foreigners' fault ... they probably just couldn't read the ゴミ捨て禁止 sign.

 

[edogaijin]

To respond to Mike Cash, who I might suspect is Mike "Akabane" Cash (^^;?), I think if the media here were to report Mt. Garbage to the locals it would undoubtedly imply that zannichi kakokjin were behind this most egregious breach of public etiquette. The public announcement parrot in my neck of the woods tells us pretty clearly where the waste bins are. I can barely read kanji and I get that.

I suspect the "out Japanese"-ing occurs mostly by the "more Japanese than thou" crowd. It has been in my experience a decidedly American practice. I once sat in on a conversation at the American club where four otherwise competent businessmen (naturally, with other in-denial Americans) tried to one-up each other about how many Japanese homes they had been invited to, funerals attended and kanji known. This was all before drinks were served. The tail end of that conversation included how many coworkers they had been inside of. It was all fairly revolting to say the least. Not being in the industry of finance myself, I had never been more genuinely thrilled to get away from other "Japanized" foreigners. The Chinese Chicken Salad and Key Lime pie were nonetheless excellent.

I believe we were communally celebrating the ending of someone's honeymoon period, though it didn't dawn on my lunchmates at the time. Your 'mileage' may vary.

 

[Mike Cash]

You lost me on the "Akabane" bit. What's that about?

 

[Glenski]

The tail end of that conversation included how many coworkers they had been inside of.

This brings to mind endoscopy or sexual abuse. I'm sure neither was intended.

 

[caster55]

I've seen Japanese throw their garbage on the little plot of grass out front my apartment! There is often an empty cup ramen cup or coffee can in front of my place. Last winter I saw a guy throw something there as I stepped out of my place, and as I came down and confirmed what I thought I saw, he was already hurrying off double time to avoid eye contact.

With the total lack of crime here, I'm baffled that anyone feels the utterly lazy need to litter. Every combini has a garbage can available. Since there are no thieving crackheads here like at home, my rage is reserved for litterers.

how did you recognize he was a Japanese?

 

[nahadef]

how did you recognize he was a Japanese?

I used my eyes.