dewa nai / de nai

[jbemel]

I learned that the negative form of "desu" / "da" can be either "dewa arimasen" or "dewa nai"
"dewa arimasen" is more polite than "dewa nai" (correct me if I'm wrong)

but I just noticed that you can use "de nai" also

what is the differance between "dewa nai" and "de nai"?

 

[Toritoribe]

"Dewa nai" is commonly used. "De nai" would sometimes sound odd. What you have to watch out is the difference between "ku-form of i-adjective + nai" and "ku-form of i-adjective + wa nai" rather than "de nai" vs. "dewa nai."

 

[nhk9]

the ha is used as an emphasis for the negative.

 

[Toritoribe]

the ha is used as an emphasis for the negative.

Hmm, so you mean "kare wa gakusei de wa nai" is the emphasized one of "kare wa gakusei de nai", for instance? I suppose "gakusei de nai" is basically used only as a clause.

That seems similar to me "wa" in "~te wa ikenai/naranai" discussed in the following thread.
ては v.s. のは | Japan Forum

 

[nhk9]

Hmm, so you mean "kare wa gakusei de wa nai" is the emphasized one of "kare wa gakusei de nai", for instance? I suppose "gakusei de nai" is basically used only as a clause.
That seems similar to me "wa" in "~te wa ikenai/naranai" discussed in the following thread.
ては v.s. のは | Japan Forum

I was referring to the following:

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/...m0u/%E3%81%AF/

(4)叙述を強める。

(イ)〔動詞・形容詞の連用形、および助詞「て・で」に 付いて〕一続きの叙述の一部分を強調する。

「絶対に行き—しない」
「なるほど美しく—ある」
「まだ書いて—いない」
「真実で—ない」

 

[Toritoribe]

I was referring to the following:
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/152602/m0u/は/
(4)叙述を強める。
(イ)〔動詞・形容詞の連用形、および助詞「て・で」に付いて〕一続きの叙述の一部分を強調する。
「絶対に行き—しない」
「なるほど美しく—ある」
「まだ書いて—いない」
「真実で—ない」

Hmm, I agree with the first 3 examples in the dictionary. They actually emphasize some part/meanings of 行かない, 美しい, 書いていない, respectively. But as for 真実ではない or "noun/na-adjective stem + ではない," the counterpart 真実でない doesn't exist at least as a main predicate. So I think the last example doesn't fit here.
As for the case of a clause, for instance, 真実ではない場合は受け付けない might be able to be said the emphasized one of 真実でない場合は受け付けない.

大辞泉 doesn't have that kind of examples.

３ 叙述の内容、またはその一部分を強調して明示する意を表す。「喜ばずに―いられない」「やがてわかって―くれるだろう」
「は」の検索結果 - Yahoo!辞書

 

[nhk9]

The dictionary that goo uses is called 大辞林. As far as I know, it is one of the top dictionaries along with 広辞苑 and 大辞泉. Tell me if I am wrong, but I don't think there's one authoratative dictionary that can override the other ones. Dictionaries are written by humans and thus differences may arise as a result. I guess it's a matter of personal preference when it comes down to which one to choose.

The fact that an example like "noun/na-adjective stem + ではない" as a main predicate does not exist in the page you have provided is not necessarily an indication that it does not exist, as you have indicated, as the page does not explicitly state that it is not used as a main predicate. If you can guide us to a page that would support your viewpoint, I would kindly request that you share it with us.

Using the same dictionary that you kindly shared with us, I found the following page. Please see below. It seems to demonstrate that one can write 「金ですべての幸福が買えるわけ―・い」, in which case わけ is a noun. This わけでない, if you ask me, is the same type of sentence as 真実でない. It further states that one can use it as ではない, but does not necessarily need to choose one over another.

大辞泉:
で‐な・い

［連語］《断定の助動詞「だ」の連用形＋形容詞「無い」》体言および体言に準じるものに付く。「である」の否定の言い方。判断を否定する意を表す。「金ですべての幸福が買えるわけ―・い」「君―・かったら、一体だれがやったのだろう」

◆「ではない」「でもない」という形でも用いられ、「ではない」は、日常会話では「じゃない」となることが多い。→無い

サービス終了のお知らせ

 

[Toritoribe]

I consulted a corpus and got over 300 examples of でない as the predicate. Yeah, they actually exists.:sorry:
The examples seem to be cited from articles of lows, white papers by the government, novels by 夏目漱石, 丸谷才一, or relatively archaic expressions. (This would be also from the characteristic of ない.)

So I have to go back to my initial post in this thread.
"De wa nai" is commonly used. "De nai" would sometimes sound odd. And "de wa nai" is often contracted to "janai" especially in conversations.

 

[fatedquest]

I may be wrong, but isn't でわない is similar to ーてがある a form more commonly used in writing.

 

[Glenn]

It's ではない. And where have you seen てがある (aside form something like こういう手がある)? It doesn't look like any grammatical construct that I'm familiar with.

 

[fatedquest]

It's ではない. And where have you seen てがある (aside form something like こういう手がある)? It doesn't look like any grammatical construct that I'm familiar with.

Oops, I made two mistakes. I meant to type ではない and ーてある instead of てがある.

You know like in writing they end the sentence with である or blablaてある instead of だ, です or ます.

Btw, out of curiosity, I checked if でがある actually exist or not. It seem it is used in the for of ってがある.

 

[Glenn]

である and てある aren't the same thing. You're right, である and ではない are a bit more formal, as they are not contracted forms. But だ is also used in formal writing.

ってがある can be used like というのがある, but more informal. For instance:

まぁ、単純に『企業の海外支店に代理で書類等を運ぶバ イト』ってがあるのは聞いたことがあります。

不合法夫婦ってがあるのか。

偉そうな事言えないけど、接し方ってがあると思うね。

 

[Toritoribe]

Oops, I made two mistakes. I meant to type ではない and ーてある instead of てがある.
You know like in writing they end the sentence with である or blablaてある instead of だ, です or ます.
Btw, out of curiosity, I checked if でがある actually exist or not. It seem it is used in the for of ってがある.

What you're talking about maybe be "te-form of verb + ある" or something like 置いてある, ～してある?

[quote="Glenn, post: 658601"
ってがある can be used like というのがある, but more informal. For instance:
まぁ、単純に『企業の海外支店に代理で書類等を運ぶバ イト』ってがあるのは聞いたことがあります。
不合法夫婦ってがあるのか。
偉そうな事言えないけど、接し方ってがあると思うね。
[/QUOTE]
It should be ～ってのがある or ～ってある.

企業の海外支店に代理で書類等を運ぶバイトってのがあ るのは聞いたことがあります。
企業の海外支店に代理で書類等を運ぶってバイトがある のは聞いたことがあります。

不合法夫婦ってあるのか。
不合法夫婦ってのがあるのか。

接し方ってあると思うね。
接し方ってのがあると思うね。

 

[Glenn]

Alright, so Google can't be trusted. I'm wondering now: did I take these from non-native speakers, or is this some dialectal thing? Or were they all just typos? I got 6,990,000 hits searching "ってがある" (I'm sure the reason for this is going to be something equally embarrassing...).

 

[undrentide]

Alright, so Google can't be trusted. I'm wondering now: did I take these from non-native speakers, or is this some dialectal thing? Or were they all just typos? I got 6,990,000 hits searching "ってがある" (I'm sure the reason for this is going to be something equally embarrassing...).

Judging from the context shown in the result (from your link), I believe that 99.9% of them are typo, obviouly they meant to write ってのがある. ;-)

 

[Toritoribe]

Alright, so Google can't be trusted. I'm wondering now: did I take these from non-native speakers, or is this some dialectal thing? Or were they all just typos? I got 6,990,000 hits searching "ってがある" (I'm sure the reason for this is going to be something equally embarrassing...).

Hmm, interesting. That's at least not a standard Japanse. (A corpus returns 0 hit.) Young people's or some region's dialect?? I haven't ever heard this, though. I want to hear other members's opinion.

EDIT:
Wow! undrentide-san already did it.

 

[epigene]

Hmm, interesting. That's at least not a standard Japanse. (A corpus returns 0 hit.) Young people's or some region's dialect?? I haven't ever heard this, though. I want to hear other members's opinion.

I vote for typo, too. (Just in case this is a vote... )

 

[Glenn]

Alright, now that this is becoming clearer, can I ask about 遊びがってがある? I thought maybe it was supposed to be written 遊び勝って at first, but that didn't bring up anything in any dictionaries, so I thought maybe it was some slang word that hadn't made it to dictionaries yet, meaning something like 遊び甲斐 (if that even makes sense). I'm seeing it used in all sorts of ways as a noun in this search: "遊びがって". Is this another case of a typo? And if so, what's it supposed to be?

 

[Toritoribe]

Alright, now that this is becoming clearer, can I ask about 遊びがってがある? I thought maybe it was supposed to be written 遊び勝って at first, but that didn't bring up anything in any dictionaries, so I thought maybe it was some slang word that hadn't made it to dictionaries yet, meaning something like 遊び甲斐 (if that even makes sense). I'm seeing it used in all sorts of ways as a noun in this search: "遊びがって". Is this another case of a typo? And if so, what's it supposed to be?

That's 遊び勝手. I realized some of the hits are that. (Also, for instance the second one in the first page is a proper noun 「プラザおでって」がある.) But, isn't 6,990,000 too many as a typo, even if they includes something like 遊び勝手 or プラザおでって?:?

 

[undrentide]

Alright, now that this is becoming clearer, can I ask about 遊びがってがある? I thought maybe it was supposed to be written 遊び勝って at first, but that didn't bring up anything in any dictionaries, so I thought maybe it was some slang word that hadn't made it to dictionaries yet, meaning something like 遊び甲斐 (if that even makes sense). I'm seeing it used in all sorts of ways as a noun in this search: "遊びがって". Is this another case of a typo? And if so, what's it supposed to be?

I also think that 遊びがって is 遊び勝手 as Torotoribe san said.
Most of the hits are what should be 遊び甲斐, it's a sort of collocation problem.
遊び勝手がいい・悪い
遊び甲斐がある・ない
I assume the above two expressions are mixed up.
Or 遊び手がある・ない which has the similar usage of 甲斐

 

[Glenn]

Ah, I meant 遊び勝手. I was just looking at what I wrote and thought I had actually written that. At any rate, I just realized it might be a good idea to check on 勝手 rather than look for 遊び勝手, and sure enough:

かって 【勝手】
（名）
(3)便利。便宜。
「—の悪い家」「使い—がよい」

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/36082/m0u/勝手/

So, that clears that up. Thanks, guys!