Demonstrative pronouns (kore/kono, sore/sono etc)

[Luthien Rogue]

A question about these demonstrative pronouns:

An example I was give on how to use "kore":

Kore wa anata no hon desu ka . ( Is this your book ?)

And then:

* If you want to specify the object as "this book ", "that house ", you say
KONO+( object ), SONO+(object ) , ANO+(object)

Example: Kono Hon ( this book), Sono Hito ( that person) , Ano Kuni ( that country )

So this is how I took it:

Kore: "This one" (used when the object in question is close to the speaker)
Sore: "That one" (used when the object in question is close to the listener)
Are: "That one" (used when the object in question is far from both the speaker and the listener)

Note: If one is specifying an object that immediately follows the demonstrative pronoun in the sentence, "Kono," "Sono," and "Ano" would be used instead.

My boyfriend was unsure about it, and so now I am, too. You see, I think my boyfriend took it as meaning whenever you specify the object, you use "kono," "sono," or "ano" instead; but then we see the object specified in the first example using "kore." Could someone clarify?

 

[GaijinPunch]

Your assumption is exactly right. kono/sono/ano + [noun] = "this [noun]". kore/sore/are = "this". Just make sure to not do the very easy-to-do mistake of using kore/sore/are with people. Doesn't work like that. You'd say "kono hito".

 

[Luthien Rogue]

GaijinPunch -- Thank you very much. ^^

 

[nice gaijin]

there are also some subtle nuances to the use of kono/sono/ano; they can also imply emotional distance as well as physical distance.

example: say... father is showing his kid an old photo album
father points to a child in one of the photos, he would use "kono ko"
his kid asks him what kind of person they were, they would say "sono ko"
father would respond with "ano ko"

the reason for this is the emotional distance between the speaker and the subject. The first example of "kono ko" is more along the lines of physical distance, because the father is pointing at the photo while he talks. His kid refers to the child in the photo as "sono ko" because they do not know the child, and has a greater emotional distance from the child than the father. If it was two friends talking about an old friend, they would both use "ano," because they are both familiar with the subject.

 

[Luthien Rogue]

NC -- Thank you.

 

[Damicci]

Isn't easier just to remember to always use kono/sono/ano before the noun?
Even with emotional distance it seems the basic rule of kono/sono/ano + noun still stands.

 

[Luthien Rogue]

And now I'm totally confused...

So here's an excersize... place the correct demonstrative pronoun within the brackets:

( ) shashin wa anata no kazoku desu ka?

1) positive answer --- Hai, sou desu. ( ) shashin wa watashi no kazoku desu.
2) negative answer --- Iie, sou dewarimasen. ( ) shashin wa watashi no kazoku dewaarimasen.

Ok, so, I'm thinking... could it be either Ano/Ano -or- Sono/Kono depending on the situation? I went with Ano/Ano and was told I was wrong:

*note - corrections marked in red:

(Ano=>Sono) shashin wa anata no kazoku desu ka?

1) positive answer --- Hai, sou desu. (Ano=>Kono) shashin wa watashi no kazoku desu.
2) negative answer --- Iie, sou dewarimasen. (Ano=>Kono) shashin wa watashi no kazoku dewaarimasen.

*As noticed, "shashin" is close to the person who answer.
So, the person who answer can say " kono shashin ( this photo)".

So I went and asked my Japanese friend to explain why it was wrong... his response:

You were not wrong. You had better use "ano".
I think that we cannot know the distant between "that picture" and speaker or listener, from the question that he sent you.

Well now I'm totally confused, because I'm being told two different things by two different people. ☝

Any help is appreciated.

 

[nice gaijin]

the question is poorly constructed, because it gives you nothing to go off of. If the question itself had an identifier (for lack of a better word) then you could have easily figured out the responses.

The question itself is telling you to construct the question as well as the answer. This is a bad way to teach someone how to respond. Technically any combination would be correct as long as it is consistent. ano/ano, ano/sono, sono/kono, and kono/sono could be correct, depending on the situation. Unless your respective distances from the photo have been previously established, there is more than one correct answer here. If I had to choose one situation, I would probably go with sono/kono, but that situation isn't explicitly established from the (lack of) context.

This can get really complicated, but consider it in terms of specificity: ano is very general and probably couldn't be used if there were other photos around. Sono is more specific than ano, and Kono is the most specific, like you're pointing right at the object.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I agree with nice gaijin's explanation. It seems to me that the problem here is that Japanese is a very context driven language, so if you don't know the context of the sentence or dialog, it's hard to give a definate answer as to what is correct for that given example.

Also remember that your teacher is asking you the question in the context that has been taught in class.

Obviously you are starting to get in over your head here, so I think for the time being the best thing to do is to step back and review the easy-explanation you got at school. Learn that, and once you are confident in that meaning/context, move on again to the higher contextual situations you're trying to grasp now. Don't jump in head-first. Go in a little at a time. You have plenty of time to learn!

 

[Luthien Rogue]

Yeeeah, the problem is.....

Also remember that your teacher is asking you the question in the context that has been taught in class.

It's just a random question... there is no context. :erm: Just the question on its own, basically:


"place the correct demonstrative pronoun within the brackets"


So... I have no idea if either person is close to the picture, if only one is, if both are etc.... so when he said it was wrong, I don't understand -why-. :? How can it be wrong if it was not stated that the person being asked the question is close to the picture? :?

This is what I need to know: is my answer wrong, considering we don't know where the picture is in comparison to the people talking? The other questions said where the people are compared to the objects, but this one didn't....

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

In that case I agree with nice gaijin's post #8. Given the complete lack of context, it could have multiple correct answers so long as the logical point of view remains consistent.

Having said this, in a classroom setting, it's often best to go with the "simplest" point of view (i.e. A is holding the picture in question), as your teacher was obviously doing. Your answer was not incorrect. It was just different than what your teacher was looking for.

My honest opinion is that if I were posed with the same question, I would answer with kono/sono, but only because it's a "problem" for class. My first reaction, however, is to use ano/sono, as it sounds more natural with a total lack of context. Mainly because I can imagine more situations when say you're at someone's house, and you see a picture on the wall or on a table or something. You make a question like that just for the sake of conversation.

In other words, it's easier to imagine someone looking at a picture somewhat separated in time or space than it is someone looking at a picture right in front of them. At least it is for me.

So don't worry about it. Your teacher is just not open to answers outside of his/her own little box.

 

[Mike Cash]

Back when I was first beginning to learn Japanese, I lived in an apartment in a section of Yokohama newly reclaimed from Tokyo Bay. There were no train lines or buses out to that area yet, so I often took a taxi home from the station.

At the end of one trip, I pointed out my apartment building to the driver and say, "Ano apaato desu." The driver pointed to the same building, and said, "Sono apaato desu ka?"

Figuring I had learned something, on the next trip home, at the exact same place, I pointed out by building and said "Sono apaato desu." The driver sought confirmation by pointing and asking, "Ano apaato desu ka?"

Now, class, what lessons might we draw from this little anecdote?

 

[Glenn]

You'll never be right when you speak Japanese.

Reminds me of your "hitotsu/ikko" example. I'm guessing you've had a few of these types of experiences.

 

[Mike Cash]

It reminded me of the "hitotsu/ikko" thing, too. Either great minds think alike or your mind is just as uncluttered with useful knowledge as mine is.

 

[Glenn]

Haha, I vote for the former option.

 

[Luthien Rogue]

Thanks to everyone who helped me out.

 

[Elizabeth]

Kore: "This one" (used when the object in question is close to the speaker)
Sore: "That one" (used when the object in question is close to the listener)
Are: "That one" (used when the object in question is far from both the speaker and the listener)

Kore is also used most naturally for an object the speaker has just handed to the listener even though it technically ends up closest to the other person.