Delving a bit into grammar

J44xm · 19 May 2007

Good day, folks. I'm trying to get a better grasp on various ways of expressing a certain sentence pattern in Japanese and I could just use a bit of help confirming if the following sentences are both grammatical and natural.

彼に「行かないで」と頼んだ。
彼に行かないように頼んだ。

No problems there, right? Now this is different, right:

彼に行かないのを頼んだ。
Assuming this is correct Japanese, what would this sentence be expressing?

With that, please allow me to try one more sentence:

You should ask your teacher to let you turn in your homework tomorrow.
先生に明日宿題をさせてくれるように聞くべきだ。／～聞いたほうがいいんじゃない？
Is this correct? In this sentence, I want くれる and not もらう, right?

来ないようにお願いできるの？
I'm going for "Can I ask you not to come?"

I would appreciate any help you could offer. Many thanks.

epigene · 19 May 2007

J44xm said:
Good day, folks. I'm trying to get a better grasp on various ways of expressing a certain sentence pattern in Japanese and I could just use a bit of help confirming if the following sentences are both grammatical and natural.
彼に「行かないで」と頼んだ。
彼に行かないように頼んだ。
No problems there, right?

Yes, both are correct.

Now this is different, right:
彼に行かないのを頼んだ。
Assuming this is correct Japanese, what would this sentence be expressing?

No, I don't think it's correct, grammatically speaking. However, you may hear it spoken--in the same way you hear incorrect English spoken, even by native speakers. Assuming that you heard it spoken, I think it was meant to be the same as the first two.

With that, please allow me to try one more sentence:
You should ask your teacher to let you turn in your homework tomorrow.
先生に明日宿題をさせてくれるように聞くべきだ。／～聞いたほうがいいんじゃない？
Is this correct? In this sentence, I want くれる and not もらう, right?

I say もらう is correct, because you're going to ask a favor to your teacher (need for humble form).
Also, I pretty sure it's typing error, but "turn in homework" is 宿題を提出する .
先生に、明日宿題を、提出させてもらえるように聞くべきだ。
～もらえるように聞いたほうがいいんじゃない？

来ないようにお願いできるの？
I'm going for "Can I ask you not to come?"
I would appreciate any help you could offer. Many thanks.

I think it's a strange question to ask, but here goes:
明日来ないようにしていただけますか？
明日来ないでいただけますか？
明日来ないでもらえる？
Personally, I think a straightforward command is more natural, since the question is certain to cause a dispute, regardless of how polite you say it.
明日来ないで。
明日来るな！

Elizabeth · 19 May 2007

epigene said:
Yes, both are correct.
No, I don't think it's correct, grammatically speaking. However, you may hear it spoken--in the same way you hear incorrect English spoken, even by native speakers. Assuming that you heard it spoken, I think it was meant to be the same as the first two.

You can say ことを頼んだ though, right ? The main difference being the formality compared with と頼んだ？

I say もらう is correct, because you're going to ask a favor to your teacher (need for humble form).
Also, I pretty sure it's typing error, but "turn in homework" is 宿題を提出する .

先生に、明日宿題を、提出させてもらえるように聞くべきだ。
～もらえるように聞いたほうがいいんじゃない？

Yes, I thought too I had never heard させてくれる but even now I'm out of practice and sometimes get all messed up in the the head when I start thinking too much....what is it that who is doing again ? and who is asking to receive the favor from or for whom ?....

でも、多分、もう少し砕けて、「提出さてもらってもいいと聞くべき？」「提出させてもらうと」という言い方は良く使うでしょうね。もう少し柔らかい感じがしますね。

epigene · 19 May 2007

Elizabeth said:
You can say ことを頼んだ though, right ? The main difference being the formality compared with と頼んだ？

No, that's also wrong.
～ように頼んだ is the only alternative for asking a favor involving action (verb).
～ことを頼む is preceded by an adjective/phrase modifying こと
無理なことを頼む。
出来ないことを頼む。

J44xm · 20 May 2007

やはり、「もらう」のほうがいいですね。 My first instinct was that もらう seemed natural, but I could swear that I heard somewhere that くらる was correct and that I was surprised at that. Maybe that was in a dream somewhere. ^_^

Many thanks for the help.

Elizabeth · 20 May 2007

J44xm said:
やはり、「くれる」のほうがいいですね。 My first instinct was that くれる seemed natural, but I could swear that I heard somewhere that もらう was correct and that I was surprised at that. Maybe that was in a dream somewhere. ^_^

Many thanks for the help.

先生に、締め切り（日）を一日延長してくれるように頼むべきだ。
締め切り（日）を一日延長してくれるように、先生に頼むべきだ。

くれる sounds already to me here, though, if you don't care as much about politeness. And the below is probly much worse...^_ ^

先生に、明日宿題を、提出させてくださいと頼む（聞く）べきだ。

epigene · 20 May 2007

J44xm said:
やはり、「くれる」のほうがいいですね。 My first instinct was that くれる seemed natural, but I could swear that I heard somewhere that もらう was correct and that I was surprised at that. Maybe that was in a dream somewhere. ^_^

Many thanks for the help.

I'm really confused here--I'm not reading the thread correctly??

I thought I said "morau" is better than "kureru" because you're going to ask a favor to the teacher..

J44xm · 20 May 2007

Sorry, epigene, I got mixed up and switched the words around. Sorry about that. I'll fix the post. ごめんなさい！

Note to self: もらう！！！

epigene · 20 May 2007

That's all right!

For a moment, I thought it was the onset of senile dementia...

Elizabeth · 20 May 2007

epigene said:
I'm really confused here--I'm not reading the thread correctly??
I thought I said "morau" is better than "kureru" because you're going to ask a favor to the teacher..

It is all so confusing.... It occured to me also as I was writing the above sentences, to wonder why I've heard くれるように頼む so much (although not させてくれる） more frequently than くれるように聞く。

epigene said:
That's all right!
For a moment, I thought it was the onset of senile dementia...

I also sometimes still speak in a way that I feel is natural if I'm surprised to hear it might not be correct (not only from a dream, could be a simple misunderstanding in the explanation or different preferences....) so it actually kind of made sense to me.

kawaiisan · 20 May 2007

こんにちは皆さん! I got a short question..

is it better to write 書きできないが、読みできる。 or 書くことは出来ないが、読むことができる。 or, 書けないが、読める。

I'm not too sure about the difference between them..

皆さんよろしくおねがいしますね！

edit : for some reason I posted here instead of the "need a word or phrase translated".. sorry
i'll take care next time

Delving a bit into grammar

J44xm

経験値が足りない

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

Elizabeth

先輩

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

J44xm

経験値が足りない

Elizabeth

先輩

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

J44xm

経験値が足りない

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

Elizabeth

先輩

kawaiisan

haskell advocate

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