Combining adjectives: 「思くて、赤いかばん」と「思い赤いかばん」

J44xm · 19 Oct 2006

One thing that I'm still a bit unclear on is the combination of adjectives. I'll explain with an example:

「思くて、赤いかばん」と「思い赤いかばん」

Are both of these correct formations, depending, of course, on context? The intended meanings would be "a bag that's heavy and red" and "a red bag that's heavy," respectively.

I also suspect this is the related to my wonderings about the word 「すごい」, which I often hear connected to other い-adjectives as is--「すごいおいしい」 as opposed to 「すごくおいしい」, which I would expect to hear. The latter has far more hits on Google, but the former still has a substantial amount. Is it slang, perhaps?

Thanks!

undrentide · 19 Oct 2006

(1) 重くて赤いかばん / このかばんは重くて赤い
(2) 重く、赤いかばん / このかばんは重く、赤い。

Both expressions are valid, though (1) sounds more colloquial than (2).
For (2) You need to add 、 after the adjective except the last one.
(1) does not need 、 thanks to て which punctuate the two adjectives.
You can put more than two adjectives. (Of course it is OK to put 、if you want.)
e.g.
赤くて丸くておいしいくだものは？

I don't think it is grammatical to put two or more adjectives without conjugation. i.e. 重い赤いかばん.

すごい is adjective and to use it to modify not noun but adjective/verb, you have to change it to すごく.
However, すごい is used as adverb quite often, especially in conversation, even though it is ungrammatical.
"Wilder" version is すげえ, you'll find it often particularly in boy's speech.
I don't recommend to use it, but just for your reference.

J44xm · 19 Oct 2006

「重く、赤い」という文法は今まで見ていませんでした。 Thank you for the clear explanation! I try to be careful not to pick up too many bad habits from speakers I hear sometimes, but sometimes I just need to check to make sure that what they're saying is indeed incorrect.

This is interesting because, in English, you can make an adjective modify another adjective which is part of a noun phrase. For example:

"I picked up the heavy, red bag and left."
Standard. "Bag" is equally modifed by both "heavy" and "red."

"I picked up the heavy red bag and left."
There are probably two red bags, one of which is lighter than the other one. The speaker is speaking up the red bag that is heavy. In this sentence, "red bag" essentially becomes a noun phrase and "heavy" modifies that. Note the lack of a comma, indicating that "heavy" is grammatically considered to be the only free adjective in the sentence.

Any thoughts about this? Is the latter type of sentence possible in Japanese?

undrentide · 19 Oct 2006

J44xm said:
This is interesting because, in English, you can make an adjective modify another adjective which is part of a noun phrase. For example:
"I picked up the heavy, red bag and left."
Standard. "Bag" is equally modifed by both "heavy" and "red."
"I picked up the heavy red bag and left."
There are probably two red bags, one of which is lighter than the other one. The speaker is speaking up the red bag that is heavy. In this sentence, "red bag" essentially becomes a noun phrase and "heavy" modifies that. Note the lack of a comma, indicating that "heavy" is grammatically considered to be the only free adjective in the sentence.
Any thoughts about this? Is the latter type of sentence possible in Japanese?

It is indeed interesting. I cannot think of expression in Japanese that is equivalent to the latter case...at least not right now.

This is only my personal "feeling" (not too sure) but 重い赤いかばん make sense (i.e. conveys the same idea as "heavy read bag") only when it is clear that there are two different red bags, one is heavy and another is light. But in such a situation, it is more likely to say 重い方の赤いかばん to specify which red bag between the two the speaker is referring to...

J44xm · 19 Oct 2006

Ahh, I see! That makes sense. Thanks a bunch!

Elizabeth · 19 Oct 2006

This is only my personal "feeling" (not too sure) but 重い赤いかばん make sense (i.e. conveys the same idea as "heavy read bag") only when it is clear that there are two different red bags, one is heavy and another is light. But in such a situation, it is more likely to say 重い方の赤いかばん to specify which red bag between the two the speaker is referring to...

That only works between two alternative bags, though, right ? If there were three or a row of them it's alright to say 一番重い赤いバッグ（かばん）？ I'm sure there are some common examples of this...it is just too 早朝 to think of them...

undrentide · 19 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
That only works between two alternative bags, though, right ? If there were three or a row of them it's alright to say 一番重い赤いバッグ（かばん）？ I'm sure there are some common examples of this...it is just too 早朝 to think of them...

Yes, it does work with two or more things, to be precise.

I wanted to say that when there's only one bag, which is heavy and red, then 重い赤いかばん may sound rather odd...

Elizabeth · 19 Oct 2006

undrentide said:
Yes, it does work with two or more things, to be precise.

I wanted to say that when there's only one bag, which is heavy and red, then 重い赤いかばん may sound rather odd...

ありがとう！
そのうちのすべては重い赤いかばんの場合は。。。

幾つかの重い赤いかばんの中から一つを選ばなければならない場合は。。。
それは自然でしょうか？

undrentide · 19 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
そのうちのすべては重い赤いかばんを選ばなければならない場合は。。。
幾つかの重い赤いかばんの中から選ばなければならない場合は。。。
それは自然でしょうか？

う～ん、基本的には「重い赤いかばん」はたとえ複数の赤いかばんから選ぶ場合でも「自然」とはいえないと思います。
いくつか「赤いかばん」というものがあって、そのなかから１つでも10個でも選ぶ場合には「重い赤いかばん」という言い方でも一応意味は通じますが、自然というのとはちょっと違うかな。

たくさんある赤いかばんからいくつか（選ぶ数は関係なし）選ぶ場合には、重い方のかばん（これは基本的にふたつからひとつ選ぶ場合）、重いかばん、という言い方はしますが、日本語は「わかっていることは言わない」傾向があるので、重い赤いかばん、とは言わないんじゃないかなと思います。

英語ならば heavy "red bag" というところを、日本語だとheavy oneとかheavy bagとredは省略してしまうのが普通かなと思います。

改めて考えてみると、むずかしいですよね～

Elizabeth · 19 Oct 2006

undrentide said:
う～ん、基本的には「重い赤いかばん」はたとえ複数の赤いかばんから選ぶ場合でも「自然」とはいえないと思います。
いくつか「赤いかばん」というものがあって、そのなかから１つでも10個でも選ぶ場合には「重い赤いかばん」という言い方でも一応意味は通じますが、自然というのとはちょっと違うかな。
たくさんある赤いかばんからいくつか（選ぶ数は関係なし）選ぶ場合には、重い方のかばん（これは基本的にふたつからひとつ選ぶ場合）、重いかばん、という言い方はしますが、日本語は「わかっていることは言わない」傾向があるので、重い赤いかばん、とは言わないんじゃないかなと思います。
英語ならば heavy "red bag" というところを、日本語だとheavy oneとかheavy bagとredは省略してしまうのが普通かなと思います。
改めて考えてみると、むずかしいですよね～

分かりました。特に私の例文から、明らかに、どのかばんにも、赤と重さの両方の特徴があるので、
「重くて赤いかばん」というような言い方が自然ですね。

そのうちのいくつかは赤く、いくつかは別の色の場合は undrentidesan のおっしゃる通りですね。:

undrentide said:
(1) 重くて赤いかばん / このかばんは重くて赤い
(2) 重く、赤いかばん / このかばんは重く、赤い。
Both expressions are valid, though (1) sounds more colloquial than (2).
For (2) You need to add 、 after the adjective except the last one.
(1) does not need 、 thanks to て which punctuate the two adjectives.
You can put more than two adjectives. (Of course it is OK to put 、if you want.)

コンマを１つ入れたら、別々に「重い、赤い」という風にも使う場合もあるかな。。。
多分、文章の流れやどのように使われるかによって変わってきますね。

Combining adjectives: 「思くて、赤いかばん」と「思い赤いかばん」

J44xm

経験値が足りない

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

J44xm

経験値が足りない

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

J44xm

経験値が足りない

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Elizabeth

先輩

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