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Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

GaijinPunch said:
Do you REALLY think this happens to all foreigners? Ever thought that maybe you're just unlucky? Even when I lived in Shizuoka, where people admitedly have much less experience with foreigners I was never said, "Hello America," by anyone.
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As Kinsao said, like in England, there are areas where it happens and other where it doesn't. It never happened to me in crowded places full of Westerners like Ginza or Shinjuku. But it happened in my Shitamachi neighbourhood (only twice though) and it happens frequently when I go to Tokyo's remote suburbs (e.g. around Kashiwa or Funabashi in Chiba pref.) and even more when I travel to the countryside. Last month, I was walking with my sister and her boyfriend in my neighbourhood and a group of older men sitting along the street started saying all stupid things as we passed them by. This included "America", "This is a pen", etc. When we were in the train outside Tokyo, some kids would not stop starring at us, giggling and saying "gaijin, gaijin !", in the same way that just anybody (not just kids) would say "farang, farang !" (same meaning) in Thailand. Very often, when I take the lift/elevator, even in central Tokyo, when the door open and I face one or several Japanese, they typically look surprise and say in audible voice "gaijin !". This has happened when I went to the Izakaya with Thomas for example (among dozens of other times).

Sometimes these "gaijin" muttering Japanese ask just after "Are you America ?". So, in the end, there is little difference between called "gaijin" or "America", as for most Japanese it is equivalent. It's still pretty annoying. I can still understand it in Thailand, as it's a developing country where 99% people are not very educated and have never left their country (at least have never been to a Western country). I thought Japan was different, but visibly, even though most Japanese have been abroad (even if it's only Hawaii) and have learnt English at school, they still behave like people in developing countries.
 
You know Maciamo, I would think you'd be use to some of those remarks by now. But then I don't know how long you've been living in Japan. :? I still wonder, I read most of your post and it doesn't seem like there has been a instant where a japanese person didn't make the assumption that you were from America. Or asked you where you were from, or assumed that you could speak japanese. You're a teacher, right? Have you ever gave lectures on cultural differences about Europe? I know you teach English and Italian, and teaching another language doesn't just mean learning about the language, it also means learning about the people who speak it. I'm just curious, but I was wondering, what are you doing to help change the way some japanese people think about the West?
 
Lived in Japan for a total of about 9 months now, never once heard the word "gaijin" uttered like Maciamo says. The only one time I did hear it was when my friend and I were arm wresling these big Japanese dudes and they were talking about how strong they thought gaijin were. But I have many times been called an American, this annoys me and I usually give them a weird look "American?????". Another thing that bugs me is when service staff speak to me in English, like at a resturant or somewhere. It usually happens when I mishear what was said. The moment they see I didn't catch what they said the first time, they go into "thinking mode" (eye in the air,"ahh") and blurt out something in English. For so long now I've wanted to reply "eigo wakaranai" but it all usually happens too quickly and I just want my burger or whatever.
 
By the way, one of my main motivations for learning Japanese the amount of times I've heard how "difficult" it is. One dry boring girl said to me once, in a room full of other students, "it will take you 10 years to learn beginner Japanese". I was new to the country so I was like "10 years?!?!". You could tell she was one of those nationalistic, WWII denying types. If only I could go up to her now and show her what I've learnt in 10 months of proper study. I already shock people when they realise how much Japanese I can speak after only a short period of time, but these people are usually students who don't have that "foreigners can never learn Japanese" attitude, so I don't go telling them how easy it really is. I'm hoping by this time next year I can do fully functional Japanese conversation plus be able to write 1500 + kanji, then say to the next dolt who tells me that it takes 10 years that I've been studying it for under two.
 
it takes 10 years...
That figure assumes your in the West, not Japan, you know. Studying in Japan is much different; poor old Gaijinian can say that for sure...
 
Studying in Japan is much different; poor old Gaijinian can say that for sure...
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10 years to learn basic Japanese? I don't think so. I could at least string sentences together, have a really lame conversation, get directions, etc. after only 3 years of studying outside of Japan. The tester? I made it from Narita to Shizuoka all on local trains (long story, for personal stories sometimes). I would say that was far beyond basic.
 
My goal when I started out was "reasonable fluency in 10 years".
 
Gaijinian said:
it takes 10 years...
That figure assumes your in the West, not Japan, you know. Studying in Japan is much different; poor old Gaijinian can say that for sure...
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It depends on people's abilities and experience in learning languages. I have notcied that the more languages one learns and the fastest it becomes to learn a new one, slightly contradicting the common idea that languages are easier to learn the younger one is.

My experience with Japanese; I didn't know any Japanese until about 1 month before coming to Japan. I learnt the basic greetings and basic grammar by myself before coming, then studied 5 months in a language school in Tokyo, the all by myself. I was able to understand most daily conversation and speak a bit after 1 year and became reasonably fluent after 2 years. Now (after 4 years) when I am not tired, I can understand most of a movie or what's on TV, read some manga with little help of my dictionary. This is all with little motivation to study. I actually haven't opened a book or really studied in the last 2 years. So, had I had more motivation and more need to use Japanese for business, I could have reach my current level (between JLPT2 and JLPT1) within 2 years.


Does that mean that nationalist are so stupid that it takes them 10 years to learn the basics in a foreign language while living in the country ? That's always how I feel when someone asks me if I have lived in Japan for "over 10 years" when they try to address me in English and I answer in Japanese. Two of the policemen who stopped me on my bicycle (including the one who stopped me with his police car during day time as if he was chasing me), also asked me the same question. In those 2 cases, I could tell they had the IQ of a chimpanzee though.
 
Ma Cherie said:
I still wonder, I read most of your post and it doesn't seem like there has been a instant where a japanese person didn't make the assumption that you were from America.
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Really ? I never said that. I said that most Japanese assume that Westerners are American, but few will actually say it aloud. As a teacher, the students all know where I am from before meeting me first, or I tell them at the first time we meet. What is amazing is that some of them still manage to keep the image "Westerner = American" after that, although there is little in me that fits the stereotype of the "typical American". I don't speak loud (sometimes too low), I hardly ever eat fastfood and never drink soft drinks, I don't wear very casual clothes, I am not Christian... But people who haven't been introduced to me very often ask me if I am American, as it is fixed in Japanese mind that someone with blue eyes must be American.


I do my best to tell all my students about cultural differences between European countries, or Europe and America. But it's not what is going to change the mainstream.
 
Bucko said:
Lived in Japan for a total of about 9 months now, never once heard the word "gaijin" uttered like Maciamo says.
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Well, maybe you have hearing problems or live in a remote area of the Japanese Alps in a small isolated cottage ? There is hardly a day when I don't hear Japanese people say "gaijin", although it's mostly when they are talking about "gaijin" in general, not me in particular. Just watch variety programmes on TV, they will probably talk about "gaijn" at least once (especially if there is a foreign guest or they are talking about strange things happening in other countries). I also don't count the number of bars that have the name "gaijin" in it. Even some NOVA ads advertise the schools as English being taught by "gaijin" (rather than the more appropriate "native speaker" in that case).
 

Actually I live in the heart of Osaka. When you mentioned hearing "gaijin this gaijin that" before I thought you were talking about people actually talking about you while you were in their presence (i.e. standing on a train, some old women seeing you and talking about how dangerous you probably are). So yeah I see and hear gaijin around the place, but I've never heard myself being talked about on a train or in public.
 
Here's what happened to me today. Might seem stupid but it REALLY bugged me. I needed to catch a train from a big station that I was unfamiliar with so I said to the station employee:

窶堋ｷ窶堙昶?堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堋ｪﾂ、窶捫窶彡窶ｰwﾂ行窶堋ｫ窶堙坂?ｰﾂｽ窶敕板静ｼ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩ (excuse me, what's the track number for the Umeda bound?)

The station employee then fumbled around and managed to mumble out "tracku 3, semi express". Then I said 窶ｰﾂｽﾅｽﾅｾ窶堙俄?敖ｭ窶堋ｿ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩ (at what time does it depart?) then he fumbled around some more and tried to say "3:24pm" in English but failed completely. I just looked at him blankly thinking why doesn't he just say it in Japanese??? Then he went and got his notepad out and wrote "3:24" on that. what???

I'm going to say 窶ｰpﾅ津ｪ窶｢ﾂｪ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢ to the next person that does this. After I got off the train I went and got something to eat and was ready to say it to the counter girl there but, bless her, she spoke in only Japanese.
 
Just to clear it up (maybe your all thinking I meant 10 years for me-- but look at my age), it took me about 3 years to get to where I am now. However, someone should be fluent after a few months in Japan, I'm sure...
 

What are you trying to say here?
 
Just to clear it up (maybe your all thinking I meant 10 years for me-- but look at my age), it took me about 3 years to get to where I am now.
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Well, we don't really know how well you speak Japanese. Even studying constantly in Japan, a few months isn't going to make you even close to fluent... or even proficient unless you've had a few years behind you already.
 
What time does it leave is usually "Nanji ni demasuka?" .. but don't feel singled out. I still have the same thing happen maybe 10-15% of the time every few months that I go back, either on their notepad or calculator. Although I feel it's more effective to repeat it back in Japanese and hope they eventually catch on rather than try to fake not understanding English.
 
Bucko said:
So yeah I see and hear gaijin around the place, but I've never heard myself being talked about on a train or in public.
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But how good is your Japanese now, and how carefully do you listen to what people say around you ? They rarely shout it (except children or drunkards), so if you are not aware of it you'll miss it. I told a friend about it, who also hadn't noticed (new to Japan), and just a few days later he heard a few times people saying "gaijin" while staring at him as he walked by. I tend to observe a lot and be quite aware of my environement, so maybe that's why I came to realise it quicker, and hear it more often. Try to travel outside the center of Osaka or other big cities too. Even in the suburbs, it's more likely to happen.
 

This has happened to me dozens and dozens (maybe hundreds) of times. Yet, I noticed that it was more likely to happen in the greater Tokyo and Kansai. When I was travelling in places like Kyushu or Hokkaido, it never happened to me. When checking in in the hotel there, I adressed the staff directly in Japanese, and they always replied in Japanese except in Hiroshima and Kyoto (experienced that twice in Kyoto). I was surprised in Sapporo that a JR staff came to me and asked directly in Japanese 窶堋ｲﾋ???愿?窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ？ (can I help you ?) when I was looking at the train map (it took a bit long as I was admiring the strange place names in Hokkaido and looking what kanji they used for them).

In shops, station or any other place in Tokyo, over half of the time they would try to address me in English first, or if I ask them something in Japanese, either try to reply in English or, for older people in small privately-owned shitamchi shops, say "No English" or make gestures. Interestingly, this "No English" or gestures response has only happened to me in Tokyo (mostly in shitamachi). Maybe that's because I have only travelled briefly to other places and never lived there ? :? They also tend to reply to me in English when I am alone, but rarely when I am with my wife or other Japanese (or even when I guide my family around when they come to Japan).


I think the same way. But I have tried a few times saying it and the Japanese person I was talking to was so surprised they didn't know what to do. One guy even said "shouganai ne" (well, what can we do then ?) and walked away. Although I said that in Japanese and talked to him in Japanese and he understand both very well, why would he think that all communication was futile because I said I didn't speak English ?
 

Hmm...
窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堙債、ﾆ狸ﾆ辰ﾆ淡ﾆ停?懌?堙嘉ｩx窶堋ｵ窶堙?（ﾂ『窶堋ｱ窶堙ｱ窶堙闇ｽg窶廃窶堙遺?堙ｱ窶堙?坂?｡窶堙≫?堙??堙遺?堋｢窶堙ｱ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｩ窶堙?窶堋ｵ窶堙ｪ窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ』ﾂ）窶ｰﾃｯ窶堋､窶楼ﾂ、窶愿銀?漏ﾂ「窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堋ｶ窶堙｡窶堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堋ｪﾂ出窶藩??堙遺?堋｢ﾂ」窶堙≫?堙?塚??堙溪?堙ｩ窶堙娯?堋ｪﾅ津凪?独停?ｰﾃ卩ｽqﾂ（窶堙ｭ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｩﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪﾂ？窶禿岩?昶?吮?堋｢ﾅ陳ｾ窶杯窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ）窶堋ｾﾂ。
I was just trying out some new vocab, even though I knew it made little sen窶壺?彳. When I hear a new word or two, I try to use it/them-- just gave it a (pathetic) shot...
ﾋ?｣窶堙ｪ窶堙闇陳ｾ窶堋｢窶｢ﾃｻ窶堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙?、窶卮停?ｰﾂｻ窶堋ｵ窶堙?（Again, new word)窶堋｢窶堋｢ﾆ塚?。ﾂ湘篠。
 
窶堋ｹ窶堙≫?堋ｩ窶堋ｭﾂ鞘?倪?堋ｫ窶卍ｼ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堙?窶堙ｧ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｪﾂ、窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?窶堙｢窶堙≫?堙鞘?堙ｨﾋ?凪?督｡窶堋ｪ窶堙ｭ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。
窶堙?窶堋､ﾋ?ｪ窶忸ﾂ考窶堋ｦ窶堙??｡窶堋､ﾅ陳ｾ窶堋｢窶｢ﾃｻ窶堙ｰﾂ考窶堋ｦ窶堙??堋ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？

窶伉ｽ窶｢ﾂｪﾂ、ﾃｩx窶堋ｷ窶堙固ｽg窶堋｢窶｢ﾃｻ窶堋ｪﾋ?｡窶堋､窶堙娯?堋ｶ窶堙｡窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ？窶堙??堋､窶堋｢窶堋､ﾋ?凪?督｡窶堙?「ﾃｩx窶堋ｷﾂ」窶堙ｰﾅｽg窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？
ﾂ「窶禿吮?堙ｩﾂ」窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙娯?堋ｩ窶堙按？
 
I, too, have had the experience of asking a JR for a map once and a timetable at another time in Japanese and was given the English version. Which is fine, but I find that the Japanese train system is much easier to understand in Japanese, so I asked for the regular Japanese version. I was unbelievably told, "We`re all out of timetables in Japanese." Of course I didn't believe him, but I figured it wasn't worth a fight.

So yes, this happens quite a bit at train stations. I don't get such treatment very often anymore, but then again, I rarely ask JR employees for even the time of day anymore. You just have to get used to this. It will not change for you.

As far as people talking about you, calling you a gaijin amonst themselves, yes it happens. But what's the big deal? I have noticed that they often will mention it, but then it just passes. People often make only as much of the fact that you are a gainjin as you yourself do, in my experience.

I myself am guilty of the same thing. I talk about gaijin, or I myself will mention in passing, "A, gaijin da". But it ends there.

Complaining about it will not solve anything. I think that the more you put up a fuss about it, the more you reinforce people's sometimes negative stereotypes of "foreigners".

Personally, I accept that I am different from society at large and I expect that society's default treatment of me will be somewhat different. If I want society to treat me equally with everyone else, I think that the onus is on me to show that I am deserving of such treatment. Japanese society is under no obligation to treat me, a foreigner, exactly the same as another Japanese native. That puts the burden on me, and I accept that burden, as onerous as it may be at times.

If you're not willing to accept that burden, then IMHO you have no business complaining about minor inconveniences you face here.
 
The only time I can recall being addressed in Japanese at a station was by a older woman standing nearby on a platform at Matsumoto who asked "窶｢ﾃ?窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ" in a very normal conversational tone. I was too shocked to say anything but 窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。to which she didn't believe and proceeded to gesture me up a step up for all the three or four of us waiting to be able to line up in proper formation.
 

I must say I have not had the experience often either. One particularly surprising time was when an older Japanese man asked me for directions (in Japanese) at a packed Takananobaba JR station though. I was so surprised I just stared at him blankly...
 
Wow, that is bizarre....it reminds me of an instance in a Tokyo restaurant where the check-out guy apparently didn't recognize me as non-Asian (I don't look it at all) and started a conversation by asking whether I was parked in the back lot, something about used cars for sale there, my Japanese was much worse then, but thankfully an incredulous fellow staff soon intervened to let him know who he was talking with, in both English and Japanese....
 
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