Arab Revolutions

[Hezam]

Wikipedia : Arab Spring
18 December 2010 was the beginning ...
View attachment 11755
The policewoman above slapped the man because he was selling fruits in streets witch is not allowed and his reaction was by burning himself.

For the whole story :

Tunis :

Egypt :

Libya :

Yemen:

Syria :
Youtube is full of bloody videos about the Syrian revolution, I couldn't post here because of that.
First video explains everything especially the Syrian revolution.
The revolutions will not stop, Algeria, Morocco , Jordan, Mauritania, etc etc.. and The on top of all " Palestine "...
At this time the Syrian regime is killing people and bombing the cities using rockets, missiles, tanks etc.. The only weapon left not used yet is Chemical warfare.
With Iranian-Iragi-Russian-Chinese support and UN silence he is killing 100 to 250 civilian everyday, The result until now is 27178 person killed by Assad and Iranian Russian militia/mercenaries .
Do you believe that the UN can't do anything to stop the Assad ?
What's the difference between Libya and Syria ?

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Many people fear that..........

the people in the Mid-East will never be truely be free unless they can separate religious and tribal beliefs from government. A government run by Taliban rules or a government where women are not equal to men with the same rights , will never be true freedom.
The ability to forget old enemies and payback/retribution for wrongs done is also needed to form a true free government. People of all beliefs need to work togeather and compromise for a government that is as fair as can be for all people. The world is watching and hoping for the people of the Mid-East to have a democracy that works.

Uncle Frank

 

[Hezam]

the people in the Mid-East will never be truely be free unless they can separate religious and tribal beliefs from government.

Nice to see you comment here Frank
The government that fell were secular !
They jailed & tortured the people who practice Islam ... !

A government run by Taliban rules or a government where women are not equal to men with the same rights , will never be true freedom.

Arab don't want a government like Taliban ! Supporting Taliban against the Allies doesn't mean we agree with their way of role !

The ability to forget old enemies and payback/retribution for wrongs done is also needed to form a true free government. People of all beliefs need to work togeather and compromise for a government that is as fair as can be for all people.

I would appreciate if you explain what " old enemy " you meant ^^
But to answer this as i understood it the answer will be like this :
Old Enemy : Most Arab would think of Crusades and the period before the Colonization.
New Enemy : I can think of US gov, Colonization countries, The occupation of Palestine " Israel ", Russia, and the Iranian system.
Anyway the new enemy is the system that still interfere in Arab-Muslims affairs.
As for the old enemy it's from the old past but for the new enemy i don't really understand why Arab should forget about who stands against the Freedom and Unity ! I would appreciate more clarification because i might misunderstand you.
It's just like if we say to the Americans not to free the US from the british occupation in 1775 .

The world is watching and hoping for the people of the Mid-East to have a democracy that works.

The Arab revolution will bring the freedom to many people such as Iran, China, Russia, North Korea, And many nations that is under Dictators.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

Yea, you can believe that if you like.
Tell yourself that Democracy = Freedom.

The world is watching. Not to make sure you have a democracy that works.
To make sure that you have a democracy that works for us.

We have been manipulating this system for 100's of years.
It is completely new to you.
You stand no chance.
You are ignorant enough to think it works in reality as it appears on the surface.

In truth "Democracy" and dictatorship are no different.
This comedian makes a very good, light hearted point about it.


but the truth is no joke.
The Arab spring is nothing more than another round of Arab Rape,

The BBC tells us and it tells you that our system is "FAIR"
Some of us believe it, and you believe it too.
Then when we impose it, you thank us.
Except you have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

We own Libya now. The project to bring water into the desert has been stopped,
Education and healthcare cut.
people will no longer receive many state subsidies.
but hey. we got cheap oil and big profits.
and seeing as we don't give a f**k about you lot.
it's win win for us.

after all before we put them in power with our child killing laser guided bombs,
where did all the people who are now running Libya live?

LOL - not Libya

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Old enemies ......

I guess what I ment was like in the American civil war. The North won the war and many southerners never let go of the hatred and bad feelings. Even after the war was officially over , northerns and southerners killed and hated each other. An angry southerner killed the then president Abraham Lincoln. There were good people from both sides that worked togeather to do what was best for the whole country, not just their section of the country. Both sides compromised to try and do best for all the people , not just small special interest groups. Even here in America today are small groups of closed minded people who who hate others for something that happened a hundred years ago. Sometimes you have to let go of the past and look towards the future to move forward towards a better life.

Uncle Frank

 

[Hezam]

Seven, Before i reply to each line i want to ask you some questions :
- Do you live in the UK since you was child ?
- Have you been to Arab world ?
I asked you because i don't think a person who lives in the UK or moved from Arab world to UK would say like what you said !

Yea, you can believe that if you like.
Tell yourself that Democracy = Freedom.

Freedom is a part of Democracy or in some cases Democracy is a result of Freedom, In some situations Democracy becomes a solution in some parts of the world.

The world is watching. Not to make sure you have a democracy that works.
To make sure that you have a democracy that works for us.

I know but we should work for a democracy that works for us !

We have been manipulating this system for 100's of years.

Yeah after the fall of Ottoman Caliphate not only Islamic world that been colonized ( occupied ) but the whole world has been colonized by european system, But people are trying to be free now..Some people even wished to back to colonization !

You are ignorant enough to think it works in reality as it appears on the surface.

Democracy worked perfectly in some nations ! Why do you deny this ?

In truth "Democracy" and dictatorship are no different.
This comedian makes a very good, light hearted point about it.

WTH ! have you been to Arab world ? Iran ? North Korea ? You have to be kidding !

but the truth is no joke.
The Arab spring is nothing more than another round of Arab Rape,

Not Anymore, Unless Arab stay separated nations then Yes.

The BBC tells us and it tells you that our system is "FAIR"
Some of us believe it, and you believe it too.
Then when we impose it, you thank us.
Except you have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

Let me ask you this : What if you had not democracy in Europe yet, What would Europe look like now ?

We own Libya now. The project to bring water into the desert has been stopped,
Education and healthcare cut.
people will no longer receive many state subsidies.
but hey. we got cheap oil and big profits.

People chosed the current government by their own will, If this government failed then let them suck it ! the people elected a union of 60 parties over 1 party ( Muslims Brotherhood ) because they wanted to !
Let's see how the new governments in Egypt, Tunis, Libya, Yemen will work then we will judge them for what they have done !
If they did well then we will support them, If they failed then " Revolution " again.

and seeing as we don't give a f**k about you lot.
it's win win for us.

There are many people in the west who care ! there are many Europeans & Americans who supported us, We will NEVER forget their support, So please don't make it sounds like " We and Them " anymore.

after all before we put them in power with our child killing laser guided bombs,
where did all the people who are now running Libya live?
LOL - not Libya

What's wrong with a person who came from somewhere to serve his people ? Judge a person for what he do.

---------- Post added at 18:35 ---------- Previous post was at 18:30 ----------

I guess what I ment was like in the American civil war. The North won the war and many southerners never let go of the hatred and bad feelings. Even after the war was officially over , northerns and southerners killed and hated each other. An angry southerner killed the then president Abraham Lincoln. There were good people from both sides that worked togeather to do what was best for the whole country, not just their section of the country. Both sides compromised to try and do best for all the people , not just small special interest groups. Even here in America today are small groups of closed minded people who who hate others for something that happened a hundred years ago. Sometimes you have to let go of the past and look towards the future to move forward towards a better life.

Uncle Frank

hmm... that is different from here :?
The only case that this goes on is Arab-Persian case ... I hope both Arab & Iranian governments disappear soon.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

So the reason the west is not supporting any kind of Democracy in Saudi Arabia,
and that the Saudi police opened fire on pro democracy protesters but no one who matters bats an eyelid is because there is a bloke on a Japanese Forum, who appeared well after these incidents, who may not be western?

Really, I'd say that's reaching.

Or perhaps could it have something to do with the fact that the largest arms deal in the history of the world ever was between the USA and Saudi Arabia. oh and The oil, the cost of which the Saudi's allow the west to control.

You have no political freedoms because it is in our interests not to give you any.
Money makes the world go round, and we invented it. go figure

how about you stop dodging the question Hezam

 

[noyhauser]

You have no political freedoms because it is in our interests not to give you any.
Money makes the world go round, and we invented it. go figure

I don't think its completely in the western countries fault at all. Actually I think the West has played a junior role in the determining the fate of Arab monarchies, mostly because they are very good at keeping themselves in power. Claiming its the "West's" fault is an intellectual cop-out, that vastly simplifies the difficulties involved in maintaining control over a country, while completely overestimating the power that the west actually wields. Since the 19th Century the Sauds have effectively managed the various factions in the Arabian peninsula to keep itself in power. They did it without western help and without oil. The discovery of the oil wealth has only allowed them magnify the policies they previously had in place.

Furthermore the West is in a bind concerning promotion of democracy. International Law (Specifically the UN Charter) basically prevents countries from interfering the the internal matters of other states. The only way around this is if a state is a threat to peace and stability. The Saud monarchy has been pretty good at keeping itself out of international disputes.

how about you stop dodging the question Hezam

How about you stop being an aggressive troll?

 

[Hezam]

So the reason the west is not supporting any kind of Democracy in Saudi Arabia,
and that the Saudi police opened fire on pro democracy protesters but no one who matters bats an eyelid is because there is a bloke on a Japanese Forum, who appeared well after these incidents, who may not be western?
Really, I'd say that's reaching.
Or perhaps could it have something to do with the fact that the largest arms deal in the history of the world ever was between the USA and Saudi Arabia. oh and The oil, the cost of which the Saudi's allow the west to control.
You have no political freedoms because it is in our interests not to give you any.
Money makes the world go round, and we invented it. go figure
how about you stop dodging the question Hezam

I'm not sure if you think that i'm a fan of the Saudi gov ?!
The Saudi gov sided with Mubarak and Bin Ali and was going to make Jordan and Morocco join the Gulf union.
Iran, As you see in Syria & Lebanon, and before that in Iraq and also in Ahwaz.
Both systems in Iran and Saudi Arabia are working against the Freedom and democracy.
As you mentioned the largest arms deal in the history, The Saudi gov is wasting money on crap weapons, And in the same time they are helping the US and Nato to be stronger and the result is " More wars on Muslims ".

You have no political freedoms because it is in our interests not to give you any.

Quit this and tell me your real nationality, It's an old trick.

how about you stop dodging the question Hezam

I wasn't dodging your question but i told you to post in thsi section so now you have your answers.

---------- Post added at 00:43 ---------- Previous post was at 00:23 ----------

I don't think its completely in the western countries fault at all. Actually I think the West has played a junior role in the determining the fate of Arab monarchies, mostly because they are very good at keeping themselves in power. Claiming its the "West's" fault is an intellectual cop-out, that vastly simplifies the difficulties involved in maintaining control over a country, while completely overestimating the power that the west actually wields. Since the 19th Century the Sauds have effectively managed the various factions in the Arabian peninsula to keep itself in power. They did it without western help and without oil. The discovery of the oil wealth has only allowed them magnify the policies they previously had in place.

This is too far from the truth !
The western wars on Arab-Muslims world never stopped since the first crusade until this moment, Let's start from the colonization:


The map shows Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran as uncolonized but they were under the british colonization.
Arab peninsula is a part of Arab world, And you can see now how bad the systems are in All countries in Arab peninsula.
After the Ottoman Empire fell UK, France and later the US installed most of the Arab systems.
I don't know what books or what sources you read from because it's 90% the west's fault.

Furthermore the West is in a bind concerning promotion of democracy. International Law (Specifically the UN Charter) basically prevents countries from interfering the the internal matters of other states. The only way around this is if a state is a threat to peace and stability. The Saud monarchy has been pretty good at keeping itself out of international disputes.

This goes only on Weak nations, and Muslims.
I know you don't want me to mention Israel.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

A British politician once said

If Voting changed anything they would ban it

I disagree with things that say, oh it's the wests fault, or it's this persons fault.
The situation we have is no accident.
It is also No ones fault.

Europe is the crucible of Domination.
While every one else was getting on with each other.
We were busy being war like and stabbing each other in the back.

Did you know that in the entire history of Europe, there has not been a single stretch of 50 years without war?

And we learnt how to be very good at dominating others.
The idea of the Nation is pretty much dead.

It's the age old divide and conquer.
You talk of the separation between Muslims and Christians.
This is created artificially
People talk about immigrants,
other countries,
other races.
people from other towns.

Because that is the plan, that is how it works.

you divide, and then you rule.

In this world there is only one true division.
those who are poor and those who are rich.

and the rich don't want us to focus on that division, they want us to accept it.
So other divisions are created.

who do you think created the racism that is still rife in the deep south of USA to this day?

 

[noyhauser]

[/COLOR]
This is too far from the truth !
The western wars on Arab-Muslims world never stopped since the first crusade until this moment, Let's start from the colonization:
View attachment 11786

The map shows Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran as uncolonized but they were under the british colonization.
Arab peninsula is a part of Arab world, And you can see now how bad the systems are in All countries in Arab peninsula.
After the Ottoman Empire fell UK, France and later the US installed most of the Arab systems.

Absolutely the west helped put a number of rulers into power and assisted them. And some states have suffered more than others. However at a certain point people need to stop blaming others and take responsibility for themselves.

I think its been one of the biggest issue with Arab political development: its that so many people blame the West and Israel for everything instead of actually looking for the current causes of their situation. It represents the failure of education in the Arab world. Certainly the publics have high technical education; engineering, math, computers ect. However education in the west also teaches you about the basic rights of being a citizen, civic responsibility, respecting the views of others. Unfortunately in these autocratic states this education does not exist. Instead they emphasized themes of xenophobia, and frankly anti-semetic themes. In order to hide the failings of the autocratic regimes they basically told people: Its the westerners' fault, Its the Jews, israel, ect. anybody but the very people who were actually at fault.

It very encouraging to see people take up the cause to fight for their rights. Its an essential part of a democratic system.However the fall back towards "blaming everybody but ourselves" is discouraging. Egypt faces immense problems with debt and an unsustainable economic system. It will collapse these states far faster than the West ever could.

However what brings people to have mass demonstrations this week? Its not the terrible mismanagement of their societies... rather its some Youtube video made by a idiot in California about Mohammed. While I find these sorts of videos abhorrent, the fact that its the main focus of their anger just shows how immature political thought is. If I was in Egypt and really concerned about my well being, I would be protesting a bloated civil service, corruption and terrible investments, not what some idiot in California made on a shaky video.

Colonialism was a much more important influence into the 1950s... but it has waned since, particularly due to Pan Arabism under Nasser and the decline of Britain and France as great powers. The decisive turning point for me was the 1973 Oil Embargo, which saw the region basically use Oil as a weapon. The west has made terrible choices in supporting autocratic rulers in the region. I don't agree with how palestine has been dealt with at all, then again, blaming all of the problems of the Middle East on that conflict is just another example of passing blame to someone else for your own problems.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia because it has arguably played an more instrumental role in shaping the region than any other State, western or otherwise... with the possible exception of Egypt. The Sa'uds were in power far before the discovery of oil in 1932, or colonialization of the region. They have been extremely effective at keeping themselves in power and ensuring stability of other monarchies. During the Iran-Iraq war, the KSA was giving one billion dollars a month to help the Iraqi government. It spent almost $600 million a year in Afghanistan. Just last year you saw the Kingdom crush demonstrations in Bahrain. The Sa'ud dynasty has never been a helpless victim: it has been actively shaping its own destiny and that of the region for the past 100 years.

There is a parallel here between China and the Middle East. You see demonstrations in China about Japanese imperialism from the Second World War and how its ruined their lives. How many demonstrations are there about high level corruption. When does it end?

I don't know what books or what sources you read from because it's 90% the west's fault.

I read quite a bit Hezam; I suspect I've read hundreds of books from all manner of sources on middle eastern history, colonialsm and political theory. Part of my work concerns middle eastern politics, and I've spoken to too many middle eastern scholars and "normal" people to actually count in my travels there. I've written a book and journal article about this topic. I know your viewpoint very well.... I could probably argue it better than you because I've read alot about it. Even so I don't believe that it is a completely valid argument based on the evidence that I have read. So for once consider that maybe, I'm not completely mistaken and that I might have something valuable to say.

 

[Hezam]

However what brings people to have mass demonstrations this week? Its not the terrible mismanagement of their societies... rather its some Youtube video made by a idiot in California about Mohammed. While I find these sorts of videos abhorrent, the fact that its the main focus of their anger just shows how immature political thought is. If I was in Egypt and really concerned about my well being, I would be protesting a bloated civil service, corruption and terrible investments, not what some idiot in California made on a shaky video.

I'm still shocked from the reaction in the islamic world...My best guess about that is that the movie was a set up for Arab spring and the noobs ate the bite.
I'm very pissed off from what people did to the embassies...

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Are the Mid-East people being told......

that it was made by an Egyptian man who had been arested for dealing drugs in the past and it was mostly financed by his family and friends back in Egypt?The only reason it got made was he told the actors it was a totally different story.
The characters names were changed after it was finished and the dialogue changed , so even the actors and film crew who produced it had no knowledge it was going to be changed to portray a religious figure.

Uncle Frank

 

[Hezam]

The only reason it got made was he told the actors it was a totally different story.
The characters names were changed after it was finished and the dialogue changed , so even the actors and film crew who produced it had no knowledge it was going to be changed to portray a religious figure.

Uncle Frank

The people didn't wait or think they gone wild and few persons thought they are spidermen so they climbed the US embassies and did childish things, They broke Islamic laws, Prophet Mohammad [s.a.w] said "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)"
I don't know why Football clubs involved in that dumb actions.
People have the right to protest [ I believe 80% of protesters don't know the real story ] but they don't have the right to attack the embassies.
This is off topic but i'm really pissed off.

 

[Abdur Rahman]

today Iranian said that Iran sent‏ ‏‎ many military experts to help the Syrian regime
Iran sent fighters to fight syrian and to protect syrian regime
Iranian fighter are atrociouse they make massacres wherever they go
Iran will make more and more in the future and the world is silent about that

 

[Hezam]

today Iranian said that Iran sent‏ ‏‎ many military experts to help the Syrian regime
Iran sent fighters to fight syrian and to protect syrian regime
Iranian fighter are atrociouse they make massacres wherever they go
Iran will make more and more in the future and the world is silent about that

There are Iranian and Russians in the Assad's army.
Let's say Irani Gov and Russian gov because the Irani & Russian people are mostly against their systems.

 

[ewww]

today Iranian said that Iran sent‏ ‏‎ many military experts to help the Syrian regime

one suggestion, please read what You are writing, I do respect all kind or revolutions everywere, but, I am so sorry, sometime You souds like gebbels.

from the other side, if You are using word 'many' to estimate amount of experts, please provide us amount of terrorists which come to syria from chechnya, afganistan, egypt, libya, turkey, etc, and where they get ammo. beleive me, it is very interesting information which should not be omitted

also, it is good idea to declare how much was You paid for postin' that sh$t here. You may do it in terms 'many/not many', accuracy is not important here.

piece and prosperity

 

[Abdur Rahman]

If there are terrorists why syrian army used airforces to attack inhabitand cities?
why every day between 100 and 200 people killed by airforces and most of them are civilians?
Why Syrian army kill civilians more than armed rebels?

 

[ewww]

If there are terrorists why syrian army used airforces to attack inhabitand cities? ...

Now read my previous post and tell me, was here an question which could be suitable for that kind of answer?
Should we consider that answer as You confession that You are well paid troll?
Were are You from?

 

[noyhauser]

I think everybody needs to take a breath here... because it sounds like everybody here agrees that the Assad regime, Iranian regime and Russia are supporting a very bloody insurgency that is reprehensible and should have no place in the conflict.

And yes Abdur Rahman, people in the West are aware of the Russian and Syrian support, however there is little that they can do; Russia sits on the security council (as does China) and they will block any action through the UN. Outside of a direct unilateral action by NATO or the US (which is unlikely given the attitude of Arabs) there will be little chance of anything happening.

 

[Abdur Rahman]

Were are You from?

I am from Syria
and i live in a region where the syrian army attacked the villages and towns by tanks and airforces everyday

 

[Hezam]

from the other side, if You are using word 'many' to estimate amount of experts, please provide us amount of terrorists which come to syria from chechnya, afganistan, egypt, libya, turkey, etc, and where they get ammo. beleive me, it is very interesting information which should not be omitted

Excuse me mister little Bush, They are "Mujahideen" not terrorists so remember this next time.
They came to defend innocent people, they sacrifice their souls to protect people, They didn't come for money or anything else.

also, it is good idea to declare how much was You paid for postin' that sh$t here. You may do it in terms 'many/not many', accuracy is not important here.

He is living under fire atm not like you fat *** sitting and throwing foolish stupid words around here, You sound like a big ignorant.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

lol ewwwwwwwww is probably right.

Sounds like someone is just "spreading the message"

why syrian army used airforces to attack inhabitand cities?

If the rebels care so much about people, why then are they fighting from and hiding in, inhabited cities?
Using the local population as camouflage and human shield without their permission.

Lets hope those thugs get a good kicking

 

[Abdur Rahman]

If the rebels care so much about people, why then are they fighting from and hiding in, inhabited cities?
Using the local population as camouflage and human shield without their permission.

rebels enteret cities because they are from those cities
then the Syrian army used civilians as human shield
for example when the Army entered my city they took me and my family and all people in my street and put us infront of tanks while tanks was firing on the other parts of the city
and used us as human shield
they put us for 3 hours infront of tanks
that day was the most horrible day in my life

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

Except that's not true is it.

And really why would you even use human shields for tanks? That doesn't even make sense.