Anyone read this book on the Crusades?

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Amazon product ASIN 0061582611
One of the reviewers summarizes the book's thesis like this:

In this important volume he debunks the historical revisionism (which is often coupled with anti-Christian bigotry) about the Crusades to offer us a more sober and clear picture of what in fact took place. He notes that it was especially during the time of the Enlightenment and onwards that critics claimed that the Crusaders were mainly Western imperialists, those who set out after land and loot.

Moreover, the contrast is often made between the bloodthirsty barbaric Christians, and the peace-loving Muslims. But as Stark persuasively documents, none of this is close to the truth. The real story is this: the Crusades were certainly provoked, and the Crusaders were mainly concerned to free the Holy Lands from Muslim oppression and to protect religious pilgrims who travelled there.

Indeed, to properly understand the Crusades, a lot of background information needs to be considered. That is why Stark spends the first hundred pages of his book looking at the 600-year period of Muslim conquests and dhimmitude.

The story of course begins in the seventh century when Muslim armies swept over the Middle East, North Africa, and southern Europe. One Christian land after another was attacked and conquered by advancing Muslim armies.

Stark reminds us that Muhammad told his followers, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say `There is no god but Allah.'" Therefore a century after his death vast swathes of territory hung under the bloody sword of Islam.

And what of the conquered Christians living under Islamic rule? They, along with Jews, were known as dhimmis. While revisionist historians and Muslim apologists speak of Muslim tolerance here, the "truth about life under Muslim rule is quite different".

Indeed, the subject peoples had few options: death, enslavement or conversion were the only avenues open to them. Dhimmitude was no picnic. Death was the fate of anyone who dared to convert out of Islam. No churches or synagogues could be built. There was to be no public praying or reading of Scripture. They were at best treated as second-class citizens, and at worst, punished and killed.

And massacres of Jews and Christians were quite common in the centuries leading up to the Crusades. In 1032-1033 in Morocco alone, there were over six thousand Jews murdered. Jerusalem fell to the Muslims in 638. The Dome of the Rock was built from 685 to 691, and churches and synagogues were levelled in the ensuing centuries.

The condition of Christians in Jerusalem was pretty appalling during this period, as was the plight of penitent pilgrims seeking to enter Jerusalem. They suffered much persecution, and risked their lives simply to travel to the holy city. The destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre - along with thousands of other Christian churches - under the bloody reign of Tariqu al-Hakim at the end of the first millennia simply served as the climax to all this misery and outrage.

It is in this light of six centuries of Islamic conquest, bloodshed and tyranny that the Crusades must be viewed. They were not always pretty, but life in general back then was not pretty. If Crusader excesses took place, this was just par for the course, as excesses by Muslims and others were more than commonplace.

As Stark reminds us, "Granted, it was a cruel and bloody age, but nothing is to be gained either in terms of moral insights or historical comprehension by anachronistically imposing the Geneva Convention on these times."

He looks at the various Crusades, dealing with the host of mythologies that have grown up around them. One is the fanciful depiction of Saladin as some gallant, humane Muslim resisting those bloodthirsty Christians. For example, when he re-conquered Jerusalem in 1187, the city was spared a massacre.

But the rules of warfare back then stipulated that cities would be spared if they were not forced to be taken by storm. So while bloodshed was limited, "half the city's Latin Christian residents were marched away to the slave markets".

And as Stark reminds us, Jerusalem was the exception to Saladin's normal style. Savage butchery of his enemies was his usual habit. Indeed, he had been looking forward to massacring the inhabitant of Jerusalem, but a compromise was struck which prevented this. But he had plenty of other opportunities to let the blood flow freely, often at his own hand.

Then there is the myth that the Crusades have been a longstanding grievance amongst Muslims. Not so argues Stark: "Muslim antagonism about the Crusades did not appear until about 1900, in reaction against the decline of the Ottoman Empire".

Christians today can well argue whether the Crusades were in fact warranted. But any such discussion about the pros and cons of the matter must be made under a clear understanding of what exactly transpired and why. This book admirably serves that purpose, and must be the starting point for any future debates over the topic.
 
I don't know why this is news to anyone who's studied history. Calling the Crusades unprovoked or simply land-grabbing is like saying the D-Day Normandy landing was an assault on Franco-German territory, and ignoring the previous four years.
 
I don't know much about the crusades myself, so honestly I don't even know how to comment. This looks interesting, but it could be extremely offensive ignorant and biased revisionism. Sadly, it would take me a lot of time to really look into this to be able to post a comment worth even READING.
 
It's a very ridiculous book,I am sure the writer is catholic,How could he Justify the crusades while he knows that thousands of people have been killed in 8 times...
If you guys find it interesting then what if i Justify 11 september ? or if i doubt it like this Video :

What if i say that 11 september attacks was for the American crimes/wars in the middle East ?
I am sure you will say ( Terrorist,Killer,Evil,..etc )

I can't belive that there is still people who belive such silly book like that !

And why this book appeared now ?

Instead of reading about Iraq war and palestine & all places where the US & Allies attacked you searched for what happened in the past 1000 years !!

Can i someday see a good step from the people who their governments support the real terrorists ?

Sorry but i am really disappointed when i read the replies to this thread.
 
Can i someday see a good step from the people who their governments support the real terrorists ?

Sorry but i am really disappointed when i read the replies to this thread.

What "real terrorist?" (If you say "the evil Jews" Ima have to biyatch slap you for that generalization hate stuff, that would be like saying every Muslim is the cause of Sept 11 or something crazy)

Why are you disappointed by the replies? I don't know much about the history of the crusades except the basics, and it isn't my area of expertise anyway.
 
I think you misunderstood me,There is a big different between Jewish and Israel..There are good Jewish and they live in Yemen,Morrocco,USA,Europe...etc.
How many times should i tell you that it's not about Jewish,It's about occupiers !!
Did you read the news this week ?
AND not only israel,there are many terrorist groups everywhere supported by the US & Allies.
Black water are mercenaries,Darfur Terrorsits,And some new groups in Afghanistan if you read the news.

This thread should be locked to avoid unnecessary arguement.
 
After posting this, I found the author has a number of books out with pro-Christian themes. I don't think he's a Catholic, but a Protestant of some denomination.

I haven't read the book, but it sounds as if it probably does have a pro-Christian bias. I suspect the truth about the Crusades is probably like the truth about many things -- lying somewhere in the middle of both sides' extremist positions, with neither side having clean hands.
 
Yeah, tell the good folk in Constantinople not to worry about aggression from the Islamic side. Oh, wait. You can't, because Suleiman conquered them and wiped out the Byzantine empire in the 15th century.

No one remembers the battle at the gates of Vienna? No one remembers Leo?

THAT is why there were crusades.
 
I would like to point out that in Moorish Spain the jews and christians lived fairly quite lives under muslim rule. When it was conquered by the catholic spanish the muslims were driven out and the jews were given a few chioces; convert to catholism, leave or be killed.
Although the main target for the crusaders were the muslims they did also include anyone who wasn't catholic; jews, greek orthodox, pagans and the mongols, or just anyone who annoyed the Pope.
In the first crusade jews and muslims fought together at defending Jerusalem from the crusading army. It didn't do them much good as the army went and slaughtered most of the survivors after they won.
 
I think you misunderstood me,There is a big different between Jewish and Israel..There are good Jewish and they live in Yemen,Morrocco,USA,Europe...etc.
How many times should i tell you that it's not about Jewish,It's about occupiers !!
Did you read the news this week ?
AND not only israel,there are many terrorist groups everywhere supported by the US & Allies.
Black water are mercenaries,Darfur Terrorsits,And some new groups in Afghanistan if you read the news.

This thread should be locked to avoid unnecessary arguement.

Actually, this is a good clarification, because to some degree I can understand this view point. But not to the point of suicide bombings and destroying and killing people the way it is being handled. I don't approve of either sides behavior.

Locking this thread is absurd though. Talking about sensitive subjects is EXACTLY what needs to take place. Absolutely no one is acting bad here. Arguments would be actually nice to see in my opinion (in a sensible manner of course!)
 
Yeah, tell the good folk in Constantinople not to worry about aggression from the Islamic side. Oh, wait. You can't, because Suleiman conquered them and wiped out the Byzantine empire in the 15th century.

No one remembers the battle at the gates of Vienna? No one remembers Leo?

THAT is why there were crusades.
Stupid,You are calling for hate...Also Muslims targeted the soldiers not the people like the in the crusades.
Could you tell me about Leon ?

And don't forget if Muslims did not exist in Andalus (Spain) there will be no Civilization and scientific progress.
The european people studied Science and Medicine and pharmacy & Chemistry & Math & Engineering & Astronomy & Mechanics & Agriculture & Physics & optics & Music....etc.
Baghdad and Andalus were Beacons of science back then.

I think many of you don't know that expecting the dark ages in Europe,You have to be thankful,regarding to the Islamic conquest europe now is the Top Continent.

1234567890 : the numbers you see is Arabic orginally by the way.

What did Muslims got from the crusades ????????? Please tell me ?
 
Actually, this is a good clarification, because to some degree I can understand this view point. But not to the point of suicide bombings and destroying and killing people the way it is being handled. I don't approve of either sides behavior.
Locking this thread is absurd though. Talking about sensitive subjects is EXACTLY what needs to take place. Absolutely no one is acting bad here. Arguments would be actually nice to see in my opinion (in a sensible manner of course!)
Well,As you said,Not All msulims are bombers,few poeple who have been fooled to bomb their budies on some places (even where no people around).
Prophet Muhammad has a jewish neighbour who put the dirt in his way,Muhammad make some deals with him and when the jewish was sick Prophet muhammad visited him.
If Muslims do like Prophet Muhammad,Then they will be no wars,No ignorance,No hate.
All the hate you see now toward Jewish is because of Israel.

Why don't you read about the Islamic history ? What will it cost you ? or you prefer to be ignorant ? It's your choice.
Actually I like this thread,Thanks Roland.
 
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My name isn't Ronald, it's Roland. And I lost my head.

"And don't forget if Muslims did not exist in Andalus (Spain) there will be no Civilization and scientific progress.
"The european people studied Science and Medicine and pharmacy & Chemistry & Math & Engineering & Astronomy & Mechanics & Agriculture & Physics & optics & Music....etc.
Baghdad and Andalus were Beacons of science back then."

I've read this before -- and in Western media, no less. But the book I referenced here disputes that claim. I haven't read the book, and probably won't; but the reviews indicate that the author is claiming that Muslims got their art and science from Jews and Christians living in their territory.

If there were Jews and Christians living in Muslim territory in those days, then it isn't true that Muslims killed all Jews and Christians, as some claim.
 
He faked the truth !
How could he say that Muslims got their art and science from Jews/Christians living in their territory!
It's the opposite,Jews got most arts from Arab,Please visit some Israelians websites (Cultural websites) you will find many Arabic arts,food,life style..etc.
God what is going on !!

I recomended you to read the book to see how silly it is.

Sorry about your name,i edited it ^^"
 
The Muslims scholars expanded on the knowledge that originally came from the Greeks. During Mohammads time the muslims were a collection of tribes that barely shared the same language and were in constant warfare with each other. Mohammad managed to unite them and after he died they continued the expansion of islam by conquest. As it came into the lands of the Byzantine empire the knowledge was shared or plundered from conquered cities and taken back to the cities of Baghdad, etc. western Europe descended into chaos duwe to constant wars and the encroching influence of the church.
In the Islamic lands scholars had more freedoms than they have in modern islamic countires. They could do research, study past Greek texts and expand on them. Many stars have arabic names, given by arabic astronomers, but they still kept the Greek names for constellations and some stars that the Greeks named. They could even criticise Islam, and many did. they went off and created new ways to worship within islam. Imagine that nowadays.
What caused the collapse of the Islamic world was the invasion of the Mongols. Allah appeared to have abandoned them when Genghis fell upon them and many turned to faith and gave up on science. The islamic world entered its own dark age. Fortunately for knowledge Europe was starting to come out of its own dark age and the old and newer knowledge passed into Europe. The islamic world collapsed in on itself and self serving bullies took the place of more refined rulers and keeping the islamic world in its dark age.
 
Why don't you read about the Islamic history ? What will it cost you ? or you prefer to be ignorant ? It's your choice.
Actually I like this thread,Thanks Roland.

Honestly, it's because I'm not really all that interested. At least not at the moment. It would cost me time, and I am on rather limited supply on that already. I've covered very basic information, but in depth understanding of history and major issues takes a great deal of time as well as interest and I don't have either at the moment to be honest. My focus is East Asia, and that along takes more time than I'll have in many life times to study, plus add on to the fact I have a life to live and still need to get my Japanese language up (and eventually Chinese) just to continue such study more in depth.

As for the book, you recommended Roland to read it to see how "silly it is" but... have YOU read it?
 
For anyone interested in Islamic science, I would recommend the BBC4 documentary Science and Islam by Iraqi-born British physicist Jim Al-Khalili.

He suggests that one of the reasons for the decline in scientific study in the Islamic world was the invention of the printing press. Since it was much easier to typeset Roman lettering than Arabic script, this gave western Europe a huge advantage over the Islamic world in the spread of knowledge.
 
For anyone interested in Islamic science, I would recommend the BBC4 documentary Science and Islam by Iraqi-born British physicist Jim Al-Khalili.
He suggests that one of the reasons for the decline in scientific study in the Islamic world was the invention of the printing press. Since it was much easier to typeset Roman lettering than Arabic script, this gave western Europe a huge advantage over the Islamic world in the spread of knowledge.
Interesting! I wonder where I can get to see it!
 
The Muslims scholars expanded on the knowledge that originally came from the Greeks. During Mohammads time the muslims were a collection of tribes that barely shared the same language and were in constant warfare with each other. Mohammad managed to unite them and after he died they continued the expansion of islam by conquest. As it came into the lands of the Byzantine empire the knowledge was shared or plundered from conquered cities and taken back to the cities of Baghdad, etc. western Europe descended into chaos duwe to constant wars and the encroching influence of the church.
In the Islamic lands scholars had more freedoms than they have in modern islamic countires. They could do research, study past Greek texts and expand on them. Many stars have arabic names, given by arabic astronomers, but they still kept the Greek names for constellations and some stars that the Greeks named. They could even criticise Islam, and many did. they went off and created new ways to worship within islam. Imagine that nowadays.
What caused the collapse of the Islamic world was the invasion of the Mongols. Allah appeared to have abandoned them when Genghis fell upon them and many turned to faith and gave up on science. The islamic world entered its own dark age. Fortunately for knowledge Europe was starting to come out of its own dark age and the old and newer knowledge passed into Europe. The islamic world collapsed in on itself and self serving bullies took the place of more refined rulers and keeping the islamic world in its dark age.
There are alot of mistakes in your post,You said Arab replaced starts greek names with Arabic names !! Like what ?
Also,Mongols destroyed Most of the Arabic science Books and threw them into Iraq rivers.
So it's not by Muslims,The Mongols destroyed what Muslims collected All the time !

I agree that some Rulers entered the Islamic world into dark ages and they focused on conquests.
The Golden Age of the science was the first five Centuries of Islam.

Now,Most of the Islamic countries are in the real dark ages under those leaders who stand against the Scientists.
But At least i am glad the science reached Europe through Andalus.

As for the book, you recommended Roland to read it to see how "silly it is" but... have YOU read it?
No,I read the Arabic sources witch is correct,BUT i may read it because not everything is ture 100%.

For anyone interested in Islamic science, I would recommend the BBC4 documentary Science and Islam by Iraqi-born British physicist Jim Al-Khalili.

He suggests that one of the reasons for the decline in scientific study in the Islamic world was the invention of the printing press. Since it was much easier to typeset Roman lettering than Arabic script, this gave western Europe a huge advantage over the Islamic world in the spread of knowledge.
Yes,In Arabic we write from right to left,And the characters shift to a different format.
But i belive it was the best invention and a beggining of new age for the humanity.
 
There are alot of mistakes in your post,You said Arab replaced starts greek names with Arabic names !! Like what ?
No, I said that many of the stars were given Arabic names, Such as Antares; Algol; Aldebaran; Deneb; Rigel, but also kept some Greek names for constellations and some stars. Vega, castor and Pollux for stars and Ursa Major, Orion, etc. for constellations

Also,Mongols destroyed Most of the Arabic science Books and threw them into Iraq rivers.
So it's not by Muslims,The Mongols destroyed what Muslims collected All the time !
I just mentioned the mongols invading, nothing on destruction, which I do know they did. Incidently some mongols that settled in Islamic lands did become muslims themselves. The Sejik Turks were originally mongol invaders.
 

First,This is not Discuss Quran.So don't break the rules.
Second,He is stupid and he doesn't know what that Ayah means..:D
If you want to to answer him i will but post it in another thread.
Seriously,I haven't watched this video before !!
 
No,I read the Arabic sources witch is correct,BUT i may read it because not everything is ture 100%.

Wow, you almost caught yourself doing a bit of objective thinking there Hezam. Remember, you have to always have to support why you say "this is correct." If you do read that book, then both your belief AND that book are subject to the same requirements.
 
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